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Earl.Of.Trumps

ISIS Threatens Nuke Attack of Israel

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Frank Merton

This ISIS lot seem different, they are a lot more organised then anything I've seen, even including the initial American invasion of Iraq I think. And although they have killed a lot of people they have shown a side I did not expect. They killed the full regular troops they captured BUT they let the part timers and 'volunteers' go. They seem to have a goal and that goal is not just killing random American soldiers. If they do get a nuclear weapon my prediction would be that the say they have several and detonate the one they have somewhere relatively remote as proof, then when the whole world sits up and takes notice they will ask to start talking. Of course no leaders of great nations negotiate with terrorists. Oh wait, because they have before (i.e IRA) then I guess it might be expected again.

Regardless of what anyone says, they all know anyone would negotiate to avoid nuclear attack. This is why countries want to get them and why they must be prevented from doing so.
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Frank Merton

I suspect they have access to whatever it was Saddam was developing that was never found. That he was doing something is plain enough from the history.

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and then

Hmm. I had never heard of Israel or Jews until we had a class in school about the Holocaust. It was hardly presented to generate hate. Of course that was a long time ago, but I dare say very few Asians are much concerned about Israel one way or the other, and they are a significant bunch.

Granted. I rather imagine one will not find many Jews in Asian countries either, or am I mistaken? There is an obviously disproportional bias against Jews in nearly all the countries they inhabit or have inhabited through the millennia. In some instances there may have been legitimate reasons. But for the most part they have been hated, scapegoated and driven from pillar to post just for being Jews. Just as these three teens were shot dead - just for being Jews. ISIS talks of nuking Israel because it is an imperative of their religion to destroy Jews so that their eschatology can be affirmed. But others - those in Europe for example, who are not Muslim don't even share THAT bad excuse for the hatred. I think that most who speak against them could not even give a coherent reason for the animosity.

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Frank Merton

I think the basic fault is Christianity and the myth of Jews as having been involved in Jesus' execution. However, I dare say if it hadn't been for this persecution through the ages the Jews would probably have dispersed and no longer exist as a coherent entity. Instead, although they did disperse, they largely remained Jews.

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and then

I think the basic fault is Christianity and the myth of Jews as having been involved in Jesus' execution. However, I dare say if it hadn't been for this persecution through the ages the Jews would probably have dispersed and no longer exist as a coherent entity. Instead, although they did disperse, they largely remained Jews.

I agree. But whatever the cause they did remain a cohesive recognizable group over several millennia.

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jeem

Can anyone see ANY connection between my first (humorous) statement, and Jeem's conclusion ?

No, me neither.

Jeem, what DO you mean ?

I said your logic was fascinating.You tried to justify US dictators backing by saying that US dictators are better than Soviet backed one.Isn't that you tried to say?

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Frank Merton

Somehow I don't see the US as being a dictatorship. It may be inefficient and declining and selfish and foolhardy from time to time and certainly it is political in the worst sense, but it doesn't strike me as being a dictatorship. Presidents and Congresses seem to come to come and go along a predictable election cycle.

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RoofGardener

I said your logic was fascinating.You tried to justify US dictators backing by saying that US dictators are better than Soviet backed one.Isn't that you tried to say?

I was attempting to be sarcastic.

My words where something like "... but the US dictators have a better build quality, and come in a range of colours". I was comparing the historically poor quality and range of Soviet-era consumer goods with their counterparts from the West.

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bee

.

While 'nuking' anyone anywhere anytime in the world may not be as straight forward as we have been led to believe.

(search Bruce Cathie and/or Keith Hunter if you want to know more)

The situation with the Militant Islamic Jihadists is getting more dangerous.

They are really going for it, as they always were.. and have made significant in-roads into Iraq and Syria.

When the West (mostly Bush and Blair lead, originally) were merrily toppling Saddam

and then it was Gaddafi's turn and then trying to do the same to Assad...

wasn't it bloody obvious that this was going to happen..FFS.

When the Gaddafi toppling was going on I speculated that it even looked like the 'West' had made a deal

with Al Qaeda to give them the Middle East and some surrounding areas...in exchange that they wouldn't

do big terrorist attacks in the West...????

Although I said IF that was so it was extremely stupid because at the end if the day they want the whole world

to be under Islamic law....this is their aim...it's no secret.

They are clever and accomplished and brave (many of the Islamic extemists...????)

I am just being fair here and not just spouting western propaganda - so no-one get annoyed ...

BUT they have been brainwashed from birth with Religious Doctrine...or they convert for various reasons.

This is such a potent and dangerous combination...

.

Edited by bee

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jeem

Somehow I don't see the US as being a dictatorship. It may be inefficient and declining and selfish and foolhardy from time to time and certainly it is political in the worst sense, but it doesn't strike me as being a dictatorship. Presidents and Congresses seem to come to come and go along a predictable election cycle.

Did I ever said US is a dictatorship?I said US backed dictators in other countries

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Frank Merton

Did I ever said US is a dictatorship?I said US backed dictators in other countries

Everybody backs dictators if they are good dictators. I see nothing in democracy itself that makes it virtuous over other forms of government and I see a lot of problems with it. Sometimes a country will of course also make compromises with its standards in extreme situations.

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jeem

Everybody backs dictators if they are good dictators. I see nothing in democracy itself that makes it virtuous over other forms of government and I see a lot of problems with it. Sometimes a country will of course also make compromises with its standards in extreme situations.

I see you have absolutely no idea what US backed dictators were.In this case you should read history first then may be we can discuss whether US backed dictators were good or evil.

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jeem

I was attempting to be sarcastic.

My words where something like "... but the US dictators have a better build quality, and come in a range of colours". I was comparing the historically poor quality and range of Soviet-era consumer goods with their counterparts from the West.

Ops for taking it too seriously.

Anyway that's not the case if you compare the US backed one with the Soviet backed one technically they all same qualty

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Frank Merton

I see you have absolutely no idea what US backed dictators were.In this case you should read history first then may be we can discuss whether US backed dictators were good or evil.

I see you are a radical propagandist.

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jeem

I see you are a radical propagandist.

Denying won't change history neither it will change fact.If you believe that US backed dictators were good we discuss it based on history.

Attacking is fruitless here

Edited by jeem

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Frank Merton

Denying won't change history neither it will change fact

You might keep in mind that history is what really happened and you can't change it to suit your fantasy.
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jeem

You might keep in mind that history is what really happened and you can't change it to suit your fantasy.

No I am not.You are the one denying history to suit you fantasy.If you believe that US backed dictators were good then present argument.Instead you are denying and attacking

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RoofGardener

I must admit, I'm leaning towards Jeems point of view on this one.

As often as not, the USA backs dictators (or overthrows governments) in order to further private corporate interests. Two examples might be United Fruit (Cuba) and (with the British) the Anglo-Persian Oil Company. (Iran)

Sometimes it was to block perceived Communist expansion, such as in South Vietnam.

We have the bizzarre situation of the worlds largest democracy actively supporting a (slightly) repressive Monarchy, of all things, in the shape of Saudi Arabia.I'm not sure WHAT the founding fathers would have made of that.

There is an interesting list of US-backed dictatorship or repressive regimes , which makes for grim reading.

http://en.wikipedia....itarian_regimes

In terms of sheer petty, spiteful vindictiveness, I would suggest that the blockade of Cuba stands out to America's shame. But that's perhaps best discussed in a separate topic.

Edited by RoofGardener

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SaraT

I think Israelis put bits of news like this out to draw attention to their enemies.

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Frank Merton

The vast majority of the nations in the world that are allied with the States are liberal democracies. There are times, such as Hitler about to conquer Russia, that pulling a dictator's soup off the fire is just simply necessary. There are other times, such as the Shah, where, as we have seen, he ain't too bad and the alternatives are worse.

All countries must do what they must, and the rest is propaganda of a rather shrill and questionable sort.

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RoofGardener

Meh.... c'mon Frank, lets see you justify the blockade of Cuba, or the support for the Contra guerrillas ? Or am I being too shrill ? :w00t:

Edited by RoofGardener

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Frank Merton

If I had been the US government and a dictator was loading up on missiles next door I would have invaded. Be sensible. Besides in all honesty I think even Fidel now knows that his government has brought Cuba from a leader in Latin America to near the bottom.

Vietnam behaves itself and doesn't try to change governments elsewhere, and we get along pretty well with almost everyone, and the US no longer tries to destabilize us.

Latin American revolutionaries ruin their countries and the States has to pay the bill. Look at Venezuela and Argentina: the States did nothing and the people suffer.

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Frank Merton

Meh.... c'mon Frank, lets see you justify the blockade of Cuba, or the support for the Contra guerrillas ? Or am I being too shrill ? :w00t:

Actually you are being too shrill.

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RoofGardener

If I had been the US government and a dictator was loading up on missiles next door I would have invaded. Be sensible. Besides in all honesty I think even Fidel now knows that his government has brought Cuba from a leader in Latin America to near the bottom.

Vietnam behaves itself and doesn't try to change governments elsewhere, and we get along pretty well with almost everyone, and the US no longer tries to destabilize us.

Latin American revolutionaries ruin their countries and the States has to pay the bill. Look at Venezuela and Argentina: the States did nothing and the people suffer.

Yeah, but Castro brought Cuba out from being a colonial plaything of United Fruit, to a country with a better healthcare system than the 'mighty' USA (amongst other things).

The missiles may have been poor judgement, but that was 60 years ago. The missiles where removed, and yet the spiteful blockade remains even today.

Far from being a failure, Frank, Cuba was punished for being a socialist success story; something anathematic to the USA.

SSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Edited by RoofGardener
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Frank Merton

Talking to anti-American radicals is like talking to Sasquatch types or alien abduction types or even like talking to conspiracy theorists. They have no sense of proportion: indeed they have no sense but just repeat and repeat and repeat.

I have no particular ax here since after all I participated in a war against them. However I have also spent lots of time there and know what the country really is. I'll tell you a secret -- the people and the government are much the same as everywhere. They mean well but have ideologies and interests and blindnesses just like everyone else. The world is what the world is and would be that way whether the states existed or not.

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