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Multibillion climate change bill for U.S.

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Big Jim

So are you any less certain of your other certainties on climate science ?

Do you now suspect the veracity of your sources ?

I strongly advise you to go away and read a bit more widely on the subject, taking in as many sources in support of the consensus position as against it (though that is not really unbiased in itself since you would need to read at least 90% more sources in support of the anthropogenic explanation to get a real unbiased assessment of the literature).

Br Cornelius

Go away? I don't think so. We may disagree but where I spend my time is not part of the discussion.

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Br Cornelius

Go away? I don't think so. We may disagree but where I spend my time is not part of the discussion.

Then be wrong Jim, be wrong :w00t:

Br Cornelius

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Br Cornelius

Before 1990, when computers started becoming a household item, where might we have found the information contradicting global cooling that was being blown out of proportion by every major news source?

What is important here is what is real verses what is commonly perceived myth. Anyone can find out the difference if they make the necessary effort to research the truth.

Br Cornelius

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Michelle

What is important here is what is real verses what is commonly perceived myth. Anyone can find out the difference if they make the necessary effort to research the truth.

Br Cornelius

It is not a myth that we had global cooling crammed down our throats in the US when I was growing up. If you can't answer the question just say so.

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g00dfella

Nice

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Br Cornelius

It is not a myth that we had global cooling crammed down our throats in the US when I was growing up. If you can't answer the question just say so.

Its not the reality that I remember Michelle so I can't confirm or even agree with your point.

Br Cornelius

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Michelle

Its not the reality that I remember Michelle so I can't confirm or even agree with your point.

Br Cornelius

That's not the point...In the 60' and 70's what would I have to do to get peer reviewed, scientific papers to confirm that global warming was the general consensus? Besides the computer where would I find this evidence today?

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Br Cornelius

That's not the point...In the 60' and 70's what would I have to do to get peer reviewed, scientific papers to confirm that global warming was the general consensus? Besides the computer where would I find this evidence today?

That's called progress. But if you were really interested science journals were available through most libraries. The point here is that the fallacy of global cooling has been known about for over 20 years and yet the myth still keeps resurfacing as if it actually meant something. There is a learning experience here though, and that is don't trust the general media to report science honestly and that is a take home message which is doubly important now that we have paid advocates for polluting industries who's job it is to spread doubt.

Br Cornelius

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spud the mackem

Which is why Spud that China has one of the biggest alternative energy programs in the world. The future of the communist system depends on solving the pollution crisis they have created for themselves - and they know it. I think you are wrong in saying they are paying lip service to tackling the program - they are doing as much if not more than the USA.

Br Cornelius

Sorry Br C, if I am wrong why are the Chinese importing 50,000 ton ships full of coal into Tsing Kiang every week apart from their own mines. A seaman mate of mine is on one of these ships running from Sth Africa to China, and we are also importing coal from Sth Africa. Edited by spud the mackem

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Br Cornelius

Sorry Br C, if I am wrong why are the Chinese importing 50,000 ton ships full of coal into Tsing Kiang every week apart from their own mines. A seaman mate of mine is on one of these ships running from Sth Africa to China, and we are also importing coal from Sth Africa.

For much the same reason why the USA still mostly has coal power stations. Its not ideal by a long shot but the Chinese have ambitious plans to roll out alternatives and the political structures and planning skills to achieve them. They are the single largest producer of solar PV panels in the world - all from a dead start only about a decade or so ago. The three gorges dam will produce the equivalent of 2000 Nuclear power stations when it goes online. These are all signs of intent.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Doug1029

That's not the point...In the 60' and 70's what would I have to do to get peer reviewed, scientific papers to confirm that global warming was the general consensus? Besides the computer where would I find this evidence today?

There was an article published on the Milankovic Cycles that included an arithmetic mistake - got past peer review and everything. It concluded that the earth was about to go into a cooling phase. Also, there was, in fact, a cool period in the late 1960s and early 70s. As we now know, it was caused by sulfide pollution from US power plants and smelting of metal ores. EPA was passed in 1972 and by 1977 its efforts reduced sulfide emissions. The cool period didn't even last ten years, but the popular press got ahold of these two items, put two and two together and got 22.

Meanwhile the scientific community published some corrections and went on to other things. It wasn't the scientists hyping cooling, but popular publications trying to create sensations to sell more magazines.

Magazines and newspapers are not reliable sources. Do you remember Kent State? I do. I was there. I was even in one of the newsreels. I saw a fake "riot" staged for the cameras. Everything that got out was filtered through just one publication - the Akron Beacon-Journal. The entire country learned what the conservative publishers wanted them to learn - and nothing else. I have trouble believing that the newspaper stories were actually about events I saw; the reporting was that bad.

Hopefully, that explains the "global cooling" mess.

Doug

PS: The chief objections to EPA was "it's bad for business; it will result in loss of jobs." EPA has been history for 42 years now and neither of these dire predictions came to pass. That's why I doubt that business knows what it's talking about, even when the subject is business. And it knows flat-out-nothing about environmental science.

Doug

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danielost

At least two of those involved in the so called study are biased against the climate and america.

Two studies this year ssiid there has been no temp increase over the last fifteen to twenty years. The holes in the ozone over the poles are there to let the heat out. Heat travels from the tropics to the poles. Ozone holds radiation in as well as out. Ever noticed those holes appear during winter at that pole. This is to let the radiation out that end when it is pointed away from the sun.

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Br Cornelius

Look at that cool period in the context of the overall trend;

Temperature_Composite_1024.jpg

Now consider that a new El Nino is brewing and that this is likely to means that the next few years will break the record year of 1998 (the anomalously hot year that allow skeptics to create a skewed flat trend line in the first place). The reality of recent global warming is undeniable from that picture.

Whats most significant is in this current "pause" period, the temperatures have remained stubbornly high rather than falling back in a way we would expect if it was a naturally cyclic pattern.

Ozone has a minimal overall effect on the climate - but it is not the "mother earth" cooling herself - it is the effects of anthropogenic emissions of CFC's and will largely drop out of the picture in the next 20-30years. The reason the hole forms over the poles in the winter is because ozone is formed by high energy UV light - and in the winter there is less UV at the pole (because it is dark). Even before CFC's the ozone layer above the pole in winter would thin - but it is the action of high altitude free chlorine atoms, with long atmospheric residence times, which degrade ozone without forming stable chlorinated oxides. This means that a single chlorine can degrade thousands upon thousands of ozones without been significantly effected or removed. This means there is significantly less ozone in the high atmosphere than previously. How do the free chlorines get to the ozone layer - they are made by the UV degradation of CFC's.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Doug1029

Two studies this year ssiid there has been no temp increase over the last fifteen to twenty years. The holes in the ozone over the poles are there to let the heat out. Heat travels from the tropics to the poles. Ozone holds radiation in as well as out. Ever noticed those holes appear during winter at that pole. This is to let the radiation out that end when it is pointed away from the sun.

Flat-out BS, Daniel. I have all of the surface-temperature anomaly records and most of the sea surface records. They ALL show slow, steady warming since 2005. So, if you are going to say that temps aren't rising, you need a dataset to back that up. Here's the challenge: produce that dataset.

Those holes exist during the winter because the reaction that destroys the ozone is catalyzed by ice crystals. No ice crystals - no reaction. That's why the hole disappears in summer - the ice melts.

OK. Let's see your dataset.

Doug

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danielost

For much the same reason why the USA still mostly has coal power stations. Its not ideal by a long shot but the Chinese have ambitious plans to roll out alternatives and the political structures and planning skills to achieve them. They are the single largest producer of solar PV panels in the world - all from a dead start only about a decade or so ago. The three gorges dam will produce the equivalent of 2000 Nuclear power stations when it goes online. These are all signs of intent.

Br Cornelius

They displaced over a million people for that dam. It will fill if they don't keep dredging it. Unintended circumstances.

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danielost

Flat-out BS, Daniel. I have all of the surface-temperature anomaly records and most of the sea surface records. They ALL show slow, steady warming since 2005. So, if you are going to say that temps aren't rising, you need a dataset to back that up. Here's the challenge: produce that dataset.

Those holes exist during the winter because the reaction that destroys the ozone is catalyzed by ice crystals. No ice crystals - no reaction. That's why the hole disappears in summer - the ice melts.

OK. Let's see your dataset.

Doug

Both studies have been discussed on this site. I have a tablet I can't copy with. The other one is being worked on.

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Doug1029

Both studies have been discussed on this site. I have a tablet I can't copy with. The other one is being worked on.

As for the studies: a reference will do. You don't need to reproduce the entire article. All I want is original title, author, date and publisher.

But that won't demonstrate anything without the dataset needed to back it up. So, which dataset are you/they talking about. A name will do. BTW: Br. Cornelius listed the ones I have (Post #38). You're saying there's at least one more. What is it?

Doug

P.S.: There's more-recent versions than Br. Cornelius' version (The ones in the graph.). The ones he depicted end in 2000. There's some more data that isn't being considered.

Doug

Edited by Doug1029

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Raptor Witness

EPA Puts the Value of Human Life at $9.1 Million; FDA Says $7.9 Million

Here are the real numbers, according to the earth's mouth.

The earth has been given authority to remove two thirds of all human life on the planet.

7 x 0.67 = 4.69 billion, which is 4,690 million x 9.1 million = $42,679,000,000,000 Trillion.

The total world domestic product in 2012 was estimated to be about 85 trillion per year.

Which means that the remaining third should be able to keep half their present standard of living with the technology they now possess.

However, my sources tell me that there won’t' be any technology, as we now know it, and that the gross world product will be closer to 18.5 billion, which is what it was around 1 AD.

So 2.31 billion remaining souls will have to share 18.5 billion in annual world revenue, or roughly 8 dollars per person per year.

The only way that math works out, is if the population is composed mostly of slaves, or hunter gatherers, who work a day for a day’s supply of food.

That's the real math of what we're facing.

Mole rats, anyone?

The entire United States has become a flock of tinsy winsy ostriches, only instead of burying their heads, their entire bodies are covered, such that escape seems impossible.

What can save U.S. but a wind so great, as to blow the sand on top of Washington, D.C. so deep that it will take a thousand years for the mole rats to dig their way out.

Smitten Semi Cameroon ...À la Simoom

[Washington - definition]

The capital of the United States, on the Potomac River between Virginia and Maryland and coextensive with the District of Columbia. It was designed by Pierre L'Enfant and became the capital in 1800. In the War of 1812 the British captured and sacked (1814) Washington, burning most of the public buildings, including the Capitol and the White House. Population: 553,000.

Edited by Raptor Witness

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Br Cornelius
The earth has been given authority to remove two thirds of all human life on the planet.

That is a bizarre statement to say the least. It really doesn't make any sense in light of the fact that the earth isn't sentient in any meaningful way that relates to your other comments.

Substitute NWO for EARTH and it makes a lot more sense, not that I even agree with you there either.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Raptor Witness

That is a bizarre statement to say the least. It really doesn't make any sense in light of the fact that the earth isn't sentient in any meaningful way that relates to your other comments.

Substitute NWO for EARTH and it makes a lot more sense, not that I even agree with you there either.

Br Cornelius

Whatever killed the Megafauna roughly 11,000 years ago, is what I believe will kill most of us. We lose favor with the earth.

I saw no trees, but vast grasslands as far as the eye could see. The trees weren't dead; they were just gone, as if removed by someone. Even the stumps had been removed.

I saw no ice or snow, but cold running rivers filled with non-decomposed human bodies, which were being carried out to sea in vast numbers. They were not emaciated, and did not show signs of violence before death.

Although I saw no living trees, I saw that the world will return to a time when men traveled in simple wooden boats. All modern technology has been removed.

In the second(dream,) I had a guide who showed me .... In every dream I've ever had that included a guide, they have always come true.

Edited by Raptor Witness

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Doug1029

Whatever killed the Megafauna roughly 11,000 years ago, is what I believe will kill most of us. We lose favor with the earth.

Most of the North American megafauna disappeared about 12,900 to 12,600 BP. That was the early part of the Younger Dryas Cold Period which may have been the product of an asteroid or comet impact on the ice sheet. That corresponds to a catastrophic draining of Lake Agassiz, then the world's largest freshwater lake, which apparently shut down the Gulf Stream (thermohaline circulation), producing a sudden climate change world wide. It also corresponds to the advent of fluted projectile points on spear heads of proto-Indian hunters. So was it a comet/asteroid impact, sudden climate change or us humans that caused the megafauna extinction in North America?

But North America isn't the whole world. Most of the Australian megafauna disappeared about 70,000 BP - about the same time the aborigines arrived. In Europe, it ranged from roughly 50,000 BP to about 23,000 BP. In the southern Pacific, large flightless birds went extinct shortly after humans arrived on each island group. So we seem to be implicated in these extinctions.

The Younger Dryas Cold Period came to a sudden end about 11,660 BP. About that time, the ice dam that created the Baltic Ice Lake collapsed, spilling its waters into the North Atlantic. Somehow this restarted the Gulf Stream, though nobody knows exactly how - maybe simple displacement of salty surface water by lighter fresh water. Snow fall levels went from ice age to modern in just two years. Precip took four. By 11,620 BP, the Holocene was here in full force. Humans had nothing to do with this - we were just along for the ride.

Global warming/ecosystem collapse is the only mechanism by which we might render our own numbers sharply reduced. And it could produce the results you predict, though probably not for two or three centuries yet. We don't need magic, pseudo-science or religion to see this coming. Good, solid, hard-nosed science shows it.

Doug

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Br Cornelius

Whatever killed the Megafauna roughly 11,000 years ago, is what I believe will kill most of us. We lose favor with the earth.

I saw no trees, but vast grasslands as far as the eye could see. The trees weren't dead; they were just gone, as if removed by someone. Even the stumps had been removed.

I saw no ice or snow, but cold running rivers filled with non-decomposed human bodies, which were being carried out to sea in vast numbers. They were not emaciated, and did not show signs of violence before death.

Although I saw no living trees, I saw that the world will return to a time when men traveled in simple wooden boats. All modern technology has been removed.

It is highly probable that all the planets megafauna were driven to extinction by the expansion of the human range.

Br Cornelius

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Doug1029

It is highly probable that all the planets megafauna were driven to extinction by the expansion of the human range.

Br Cornelius

I'm convinced that is the case with the Pacific islands and probably Australia. North America and Europe are a little more complicated.

Doug

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Raptor Witness

What I saw that led me believe it was the extinction of the Megafauna, I have not revealed, because I don't understand it. I don't think it was meant for me to. The unexpected is always a key to which dreams to record, for those who believe that their minds are capable of things beyond our current understanding.

We were fishing near the coast, where a river met the ocean and it was a pod of dolphins, who initially led us where to look in the river. I thought the dolphins were leading us to where we could catch fish to eat, but that's when I saw the bodies. I took this to mean that I was not to fish for the dead who filled the rivers, as the Guide had. Coupled with the unspeakable mystery, this was the most chilling part of the dream, because I knew in that moment, it was too late for them. So whatever this is, it cannot or will not be stopped by any man, or power above.

I suspect that the lack of trees is a clue, as is the lack of decomposition of the bodies, and if ever I come to understand the mystery I saw, I will reveal it.

So for those who believe that I relish in thoughts of such terrible things, it's not true, because if that were the case my dream would have continued. It stopped only when I knew what I seen, was inevitable.

Edited by Raptor Witness

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Bavarian Raven
It is highly probable that all the planets megafauna were driven to extinction by the expansion of the human range.
I'm convinced that is the case with the Pacific islands and probably Australia. North America and Europe are a little more complicated.

Doug

I got to agree with Doug here. N.A. mega fauna were already on a downward swing before humans arrived (that being said, it seems humans were here a lot earlier then previously thought. Clovis theory dying and all. But that being said, Mammoths survived until roughly 1700 BC on Wrangle Island. Interesting tidbit.

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