California drought sees dowsers in demand

[bLu3 de 3n3rgy]

Scowl, try what CCC outlined. The difference between the skeptics and believers on this subject is the experiencers, ie, those who have just gone out and tried it. Waiting for someone to crack randi's lottery is not a sign of anything. Try it for yourself.

[GPAW]

I really don't care if you believe or don't believe, but it works! I know because I can do it with two wire clothes hangers. You can bad mouth all you want but it works! Also with two welding rods.

Edited July 13, 2014 by GPAW

[White Unicorn]

Scowl, try what CCC outlined. The difference between the skeptics and believers on this subject is the experiencers, ie, those who have just gone out and tried it. Waiting for someone to crack randi's lottery is not a sign of anything. Try it for yourself.

I think dowsing is an ability with the person not the tools.I had a neighbor who used well water, he had the geologists and failed 5 times. Very expensive endeavor just because you don't want treated water, but he did one last try with a an old hayseed farmer dowser who knew how to do it but no clue how it work. He had to find the right stick he told me. He gave me the stick and I didn't pickup anything except maybe the feeling of death wanting life, no movement for me. Success on the first drill with him. A new neighbor moved on my other side and said I'm not dumb and he got the dowser with an old stick he picked up from the fields where the well would be, they hit water on the first drill. It seemed too much of a coincidence and that old farmers almanac believing guy from a long line of dowsers didn't have an ability. It was fun when you watched an old stick vibrating in his hand and wondered how'd he do that. Guy does a big business dowsing besides his farming all word of mouth.

As for the copper dowsing rods, I'm more aligned with electromagnetic fields I think. I say this because I was on one of those ghost tours in Gettysburg. They had a copper dowsing rod and the guy said you can even make them from coat hangers. Any way he demonstrated it to find "orbs" and he let different people try most with no luck. When I took hold the thing went nuts on me just like with him. I didn't know how or why but it did. I don't know what the feeling sensation was going through me was but orbs started appearing where it pointed, it felt like a vibrating magnet. I don't know what the orbs were but everybody started taking pictures and saying ghosts of the battlefield. I'd say more of somekind of residue energy fields at work than ghosts, but who wants to ruin their party.

Experience is everything, not seeing others do it.

[ccc]

Scowl, I didn't ask anyone to rely on the say-so of a notorious professional "de-bunker" such as the not-so-amazing Randi; I said that you should try it out for yourself. If you do, and it doesn't work after a couple of tries, fine. If it does work, fine. Randi makes his living trivialising and/or trying to discredit everything from crop circles to unidentified aerial objects and a hundred other things, none of which he ever approached with objectivity. He admits that he was once a professional "magician" who made a living by misdirecting and deceiving his audiences. He relies solely on his background as, essentially, a professional liar, as his credentials for de-bunking. Randi's work is colored by his personal history. The man has an agenda that goes something like this: anything that doesn't have an obvious, mundane explanation that he's willing to accept, must be mistaken identity, hallucination, wishful thinking, or a con, and his investigations seem to proceed from that assumption.

Unlike Mr. Randi, I have absolutely no agenda to pursue here; frankly, I don't give a hoot in hell whether anyone here bothers to try my little experiment. If you'd like to try it yourself, great, but please, don't take my word that it works, or Randi's word that it doesn't. The first time someone showed me how to do it, I was very skeptical; when I tried it for myself, I was very surprised that it actually worked.

Thank you for replying to my original post. Enjoy the rest of your summer.

[scowl]

Scowl, try what CCC outlined. The difference between the skeptics and believers on this subject is the experiencers, ie, those who have just gone out and tried it. Waiting for someone to crack randi's lottery is not a sign of anything. Try it for yourself.

Experienced dowsers have gone out and tried it. Why were they unable to find water in controlled experiments? Because it doesn't work.

Let me summarize the experiment as described in Randi's "Flim Flam" pages 310-325. Three dowsers believed they would have 100% success discovering the water and one refused to speculate. After the well-documented experiment had been completed...

All the dowsers who were tested had failed. The two who "found" natural water disagreed [to the location] and those who found no water disagreed too. All had had positive reactions and were certain they were correct, but actually they had detected nothing at all. All had considerable reputations as successful dowsers, yet all asserted that this was the first time they had undergone a test that was controlled and could be checked thoroughly for correctness.

I know you dowsers feel that Randi is a bad bad man, but tell me, what was wrong with the experiment? Why did every one of them fail in front of dozens of witnesses, photographers, and television cameras?

I don't need to take Randi's word for it. I've studied the experiment and all the controls were in place. The dowsers should have had some success but instead they had no success whatsoever. Some even claimed that they had detected no water when a pipe full of gravity-feed water was flowing below their feet!

That's because dowsing doesn't work.

[bLu3 de 3n3rgy]

That's because dowsing doesn't work.

Well if you are happy to accept Randi's conclusion that is fine. Just saying those conclusions don't change the reality of dowsing for me because dowsing does work.

[scowl]

Well if you are happy to accept Randi's conclusion that is fine. Just saying those conclusions don't change the reality of dowsing for me because dowsing does work.

I am not accepting Randi's conclusion. I am accepting the results from a scientific experiment performed in front of over one dozen independent witnesses and documented by television cameras and independent still photographers.

Please tell me what flaws in the experiment led to the incorrect conclusion. I have all the details of the experiment sitting right here and I'll be glad to answer any questions you have.

Saying that it works over and over will not make it so.

[Odin11]

Try it. If it doesn't work at the first location, try one where you know there's an underground pipeline. It will work. It ain't voodoo, folks. My guess is that it has something to do with electromagnetism. Most wire coat-hangers are made of steel--they're magnetic.

Of course it will work when you know for a fact there is water. Its called ideomotor movement: The rod moves due to involuntary motor behavior. Like Scowl has said no experiment has ever shown dowsing to work greater than chance, in fact a lot of studies show it to work less then chance.

And before you tell me to go out and try it myself, I have. It doesn't work.

[bmk1245]

OK, if dowsers can "feel EM", then it wouldn't be a problem to find hidden wires in the wall...

Simple experiment: run electric current through, say, five wires (in random order, unknown to dowser), and try to find (with rods/pendulums/whatever) which wire(s) are "hot". Results will be that of the pure chance, no doubt about that.

And complaining about 30 years old experiment is plainly ridiculous - results still beat all anecdotes.

Edited July 14, 2014 by bmk1245

[scowl]

The main problems with the EM theory:

1. They would easily be detectable with equipment sensitive to magnetic fields. Hell, even a compass would work.
   
2. There's nothing that suggests that humans can sense magnetic fields.
   
3. The Earth's magnetic field would interfere with any fields generated by moving water. Sidebar: why can't dowsers find magnetic north?
   
4. The energy required to create a magnetic field is literally billions of times greater than what the University of Alberta experiment was able to generate using water containing unusual ionized minerals in ideal conditions (i.e. it was the stuff in the water, not the water itself).
   

In practice dowsers go to an area and pick a spot to dig a well. There is ground water nearly everywhere so unless they manage to find a particularly bad spot (you know, that 20% failure rate), they will always claim "success". Just drill 600 feet down and you'll find that water they think they detected. It's no wonder why they are amazed by their abilities.

The pseudoscientific explanations here are typical, showing ignorance of how magnetism works, how far it can be detected from its source, and how little energy is required to generate one. These properties have been understood for almost two hundred years.

[Sweetpumper]

Well if you are happy to accept Randi's conclusion that is fine. Just saying those conclusions don't change the reality of dowsing for me because dowsing does work.

It does. I've seen it work.

[scowl]

It does. I've seen it work.

I've seen wells drilled without the aid of a dowser. Every one of them hit water. How could a dowser possibly fail?

[bmk1245]

In all fairness, scowl, magnetic field measurements can be employed in hydrogeology (Groundwater Geophysics: A Tool for Hydrogeology, R.Kirsch, Springer, 2006; Chapter 9) with all drawbacks. Just changes of order 1-10 nT (or less), compared to Earth magnetic field of 25000 - 65000 nT requires sensitive equipment, so, sensing such lateral changes with rods/pendulums/other crap is impossible (its like claiming to be able to tell difference between 1 kg and 1.0001 kg^a) weighs just by weighing with your hands).

PS not to mention, as you said, that dowsers should be able to find magnetic north/south.

Edit to add: a) or, better example, telling the difference between 1 and 1.0001 micrograms.

Edited July 14, 2014 by bmk1245

[scowl]

In all fairness, scowl, magnetic field measurements can be employed in hydrogeology (Groundwater Geophysics: A Tool for Hydrogeology, R.Kirsch, Springer, 2006; Chapter 9) with all drawbacks. Just changes of order 1-10 nT (or less), compared to Earth magnetic field of 25000 - 65000 nT requires sensitive equipment, so, sensing such lateral changes with rods/pendulums/other crap is impossible (its like claiming to be able to tell difference between 1 kg and 1.0001 kg^a) weighs just by weighing with your hands).

Aren't these magnetic fluctuations used to find fissures, not actual water?

They don't do this around here. There is so much ground water that the location of the well is mostly a matter of convenience of location to the house.

[Gunn]

You need to contact the James Randi Foundation and have your ability tested. If you can show an 80% success rate under controlled conditions you will be paid one million dollars, no strings attached.

Do this immediately.

I think Steve Volk sums up the character of James Randi and his challenge best.

Others, before me, like Greg Taylor, at the Daily Grail, and Chris Carter, have pointed out the failings of Randi’s challenge. But allow me to summarize.

The Challenge begins with a red herring:

Randi boasts that the protocols of each test must be “mutually agreed upon.” But the only terms he agrees to insist that applicants obtain results beyond what would be demanded to determine scientific significance.

The preliminary test, which must be passed before an applicant can try for the million, demands odds against chance of 1,000 to 1. The second test, to win the million, requires the applicant to show results at better than a million to one against chance.

The result is that an applicant can—and did—achieve statistically significant positive results, yet was deemed to “fail” the challenge.

Now, other parapsychologists have contacted Randi about applying for the million dollar challenge: Dick Bierman and Sutbert Ertel claim they approached Randi but got nowhere.

In addition, there are other reasons anyone might decide not to apply. JREF requires applicants to grant the rights to all video, audio and written record of the tests to the JREF, and also to waive any legal claims stemming from the challenge. In other words, anyone who ventures into Randi’s lair, seeking to win $1 million, will find their every word and deed therein subject to Randi’s editing and promotional exploitation, without any legal recourse. (Taylor first reported this, providing a link to rules posted at Randi’s website that have subsequently been taken down.)

http://stevevolk.com/archives/1040

[scowl]

Since the applicant's abilities shouldn't involve chance, the likelihood of winning the challenge by chance should not be an issue. If the applicant wants better "odds" to win the million dollars then they should go to Las Vegas or play the lottery.

Applicants must grant audio and video rights to the JREF so they can't sue for defamation if they fail. Applicants can bring their own photographers and videographers and report whatever they want.

If someone can really do what they say they can do then these are perfectly reasonable requirements. These terms say less about the character of Randi than it does about the charlatans who use lies and deception to convince people that they have extraordinary abilities.

[Gunn]

One of the talents of Randi is a illusionists and practicing magician, he's at the top of the game in deception or fooling people. He's the wrong man for the job, quite frankly. Who in their right mind, would trust him, too?

[scowl]

One of the talents of Randi is a illusionists and practicing magician, he's at the top of the game in deception or fooling people.

Yes, he's excellent at that. Charlatans do exactly the same thing. That's why he's so effective at exposing people who make money by deceiving people. He knows how they operate. For example it only took one phone call to Randi for Johnny Carson to figure out how to expose Uri Geller's magic show on national television.

He's the wrong man for the job, quite frankly. Who in their right mind, would trust him, too?

Give me a reason not to trust him. He's spent decades exposing one fraud after another. He's written several books which show that he not only has a good understanding of science but doesn't hesitate to call in experts in areas that he's not familiar with.

Who would you suggest replace him?

[Gunn]

Yes, he's excellent at that. Charlatans do exactly the same thing. That's why he's so effective at exposing people who make money by deceiving people. He knows how they operate. For example it only took one phone call to Randi for Johnny Carson to figure out how to expose Uri Geller's magic show on national television.

Exactly! And he's a fraud and charlatan himself. It's like Satan turning around and accusing another devil of doing and being evil, while Satan does evil himself and is the all-time king of evil. It's ridiculous to have faith in somebody like that. Wrong jackass for the job, period!

Give me a reason not to trust him. He's spent decades exposing one fraud after another. He's written several books which show that he not only has a good understanding of science but doesn't hesitate to call in experts in areas that he's not familiar with.

No. Give me a reason to trust him. I don't care whether you trust him or not, but you're not ever going to convince me that he's nothing more than a slick manipulator. The man has no academic background or any kind of doctoral in science specifically, or even a high school diploma - he dropped out, and then on top of that, he's a highly successful magician at fooling everybody. C'mon, give me a break! His credentials totally suck!

He's a entertainer and has a personal reputation to uphold for himself, plus a million dollars to keep from losing. It's all a show to get ratings, fame and followers. Anybody who tries to base some of their arguments on his magic escapades and his so-called 'controlled tests' hasn't got a leg to stand on. For all we know, he could of manipulated the tests himself so as not to lose the million dollars. He's the biggest fraud of them all. It's mental to have any trust in somebody like that.

Who would you suggest replace him?

Somebody with a doctoral in science and years of academic study. Not some manipulative bullsh!t entertainer, who can fool everybody else as well, with a need to maintain fame and prestige in front of those who fawn all over him.

[bmk1245]

Aren't these magnetic fluctuations used to find fissures, not actual water?

[...]

I should have noted that this method isn't straightforward water finder, so to speak, because the set of measurements can be modeled/interpreted with different soil materials (not containing water).

[bLu3 de 3n3rgy]

I am not accepting Randi's conclusion. I am accepting the results from a scientific experiment performed in front of over one dozen independent witnesses and documented by television cameras and independent still photographers.

Oh it's the same thing. You are debating this and taking it as your reality that dowsing doesn't work, based on this experiment alone. You ahve stated you are very happy with the experiement and see now flaws. So congrats, but it doesn't change anything for me and won't change my reality where dowsing does work.

Please tell me what flaws in the experiment led to the incorrect conclusion. I have all the details of the experiment sitting right here and I'll be glad to answer any questions you have.

Saying that it works over and over will not make it so.

It's really not my job or position to find out why the experiment didn't work, i am not a scientist and it is not imperative that I dedicate my life and conscious 3d reality to a gold fish bowl where i can only accept truths if a lab can. If you are happy with the experiment and happy with the results then that is fine for you.

[Odin11]

Exactly! And he's a fraud and charlatan himself. It's like Satan turning around and accusing another devil of doing and being evil, while Satan does evil himself and is the all-time king of evil. It's ridiculous to have faith in somebody like that. Wrong jackass for the job, period!

How is he a fraud and charlatan? He has never claimed to be anything other then an entertainer. Like Scowl said it's actually one of the reason he is so good at exposing the real charlatans. Randi is only very rarely at the tests himself, he tends to let the people with PhDs do the testing for him.

No. Give me a reason to trust him. I don't care whether you trust him or not, but you're not ever going to convince me that he's nothing more than a slick manipulator. The man has no academic background or any kind of doctoral in science specifically, or even a high school diploma - he dropped out, and then on top of that, he's a highly successful magician at fooling everybody. C'mon, give me a break! His credentials totally suck!

He's a entertainer and has a personal reputation to uphold for himself, plus a million dollars to keep from losing. It's all a show to get ratings, fame and followers. Anybody who tries to base some of their arguments on his magic escapades and his so-called 'controlled tests' hasn't got a leg to stand on. For all we know, he could of manipulated the tests himself so as not to lose the million dollars. He's the biggest fraud of them all. It's mental to have any trust in somebody like that.

Somebody with a doctoral in science and years of academic study. Not some manipulative bullsh!t entertainer, who can fool everybody else as well, with a need to maintain fame and prestige in front of those who fawn all over him.

First of all its not even his money, it's money collected purely for the challenge. Secondly, you're fixated on just the one man: Randi.

There are countless others with PhDs and years of academic study who have studied dowsing and shown it to work no better then chance.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Odin11

[Rafterman]

Dowsers have been seeing a lot of work lately thanks to a third consecutive year of drought.

Read More: http://www.unexplain...wsers-in-demand

Nope.

[Rafterman]

No. Give me a reason to trust him. I don't care whether you trust him or not, but you're not ever going to convince me that he's nothing more than a slick manipulator. The man has no academic background or any kind of doctoral in science specifically, or even a high school diploma - he dropped out, and then on top of that, he's a highly successful magician at fooling everybody. C'mon, give me a break! His credentials totally suck!

He's a entertainer and has a personal reputation to uphold for himself, plus a million dollars to keep from losing. It's all a show to get ratings, fame and followers. Anybody who tries to base some of their arguments on his magic escapades and his so-called 'controlled tests' hasn't got a leg to stand on. For all we know, he could of manipulated the tests himself so as not to lose the million dollars. He's the biggest fraud of them all. It's mental to have any trust in somebody like that.

Except he's not trying to fool anyone - in most cases, he's not even present. It's completely up to the claimants to come up with a test of their abilities.

Claimant: I claim I can do XXXX.

JREF: Fantastic. Show us.

It's really that simple and yet no one has been able to display the abilities they themselves claim they have in a test they themselves developed and approved.

JREF: You claim you can find water with these two sticks.

Claimant: Yep

JREF: OK, here is an area that we have certified as having no groundwater under it whatsoever. We have placed 30 buckets on it, one of which has water in it. You will need to identify the one bucket that has the water. Do you agree this is fair test of your abilities?

Claimant: Yep

JREF: OK, knock yourself out.

BTW, if you have such an issue with Randi, there are multiple other organizations around the world offering a similar challenge.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Rafterman

[bmk1245]

Oh it's the same thing. You are debating this and taking it as your reality that dowsing doesn't work, based on this experiment alone. You ahve stated you are very happy with the experiement and see now flaws. So congrats, but it doesn't change anything for me and won't change my reality where dowsing does work.

[...]

Dowsing and reality in one paragraph -

"Reality"... Kinda, when you read Melville's famous book first time, you get Ahab hunting white whale, while reading same book second time, you get Ahab and Tom Sawyer looking for King Solomon's mines...

BTW, why not start with the rain dance (it works, right?) in the first place, and not with drilling new holes?