THIS is Hamas

[Phaeton80]

When Israel was formed there was no "occupation" . The Arabs made war on them. Several times. They LOST each time. In your world an aggressor should face no consequences OR a Jew has no right to live in Palestine as an equal - period. You cannot even see how hypocritical your words appear can you? On the one hand crying for the oppressed at the hands of the Jews yet not caring that they would be butchered if their enemies had the chance. Perhaps the Palestinians could act as adults? Could negotiate in good faith? No? Then let them fight and continue to die and bury their children. Frankly, their children are not better than anyone else's who act carelessly and cause them harm.

Right right. And If the Ughurs of China suddenly find a religious document stating the East coast of the USA is actually their heritage, and China backs them on that claim.. I guess you would lovingly accept the new Ughur State to be planted unilaterally in your country, asking the Us citizens living there to ****. I guess to think other States, Americans, would not accept that and start a conflict with that unilaterally placed Ughur nation is rather ridiculous in your mind, is it not? No no, that would never happen!

Hypocritical you say? Dear god man.

[Stardrive]

Whose. Whose is the possessive word you're meaning to use. "Who's" is the abbreviated "who is". Research the US Constitution for some facts moving forward and you'll see more clearly whose argument is weak.

Thanks for the grammer lesson/deflection but it doesn't change the fact that so far your argument is weak.

[RoofGardener]

Meh.. that doesn't work as a metaphor Phaeton. The east coast of the USA is already a recognised Nation State, with a long-established government. (by co-incidence, some would say that this government is actually the Jews... but that's another story )

In order for your metaphor to work, the following conditions would have to hold true:

1) There would have been a historic presence of Chinese on the East Coast, to the extent that sections of the East Coast where actually a self-ruling Chinese Province.

2) The Chinese where kicked out of the East Coast by the Canadians, and fled around the world.

3) China itself doesn't exist, and never did.

4) After the Canadian occupation, the Canadians where subsequently kicked out by the Mexicans, who took control of the East Coast as part of their Empire.

5) Shortly after THAT, the East Coast was invaded by Norway, and introduced a new Norse Religion to the region.

6) Shortly after THAT, the East Coast was invaded by the Swedes, who kicked the Norwegians out, but retained the Norse religion.

7) Shortly after that, there was a huge World War, and Sweden was evicted by the Belgian Empire, who where subsequently granted a Mandate to protect the East Coast territories. At this point, there was no clear "line of succession" as to who owned the territory. (in the sense of a Nation State).

8) Throughout all of the above, there must have been a continuous Chinese community present on the East Coast.

8) The Belgians - working under a United Nations of Europe mandate, decided to grant some of the East Coast to the scattered Chinese community to form a new Nation. The rest was given back to the Swedes to form a Scandinavian Nation.

9) The Chinese declared independence, and created New Beijing in the nominated territories. The Scandinavians took exception to this. Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Russia, Canada and Mexico immediately invaded, but where beaten back by the plucky Chinese. Belgium washed its hands of the whole affair and sulked.

10) Lichtenstein offered extensive support to New Beijing, providing both International aid, and frequently a veto in the United Nations of Europe Security Council whenever other nations tried to threaten Chinese interests. This increased in 1967, when the Scandinavian nations received VAST amounts of military equipment, including MiG fighters and T-55 tanks from Monaco. This was part of the global Cold War between the two Nuclear Super-Powers. (Monaco and Lichtenstein).

I think that about covers it ?

[RavenHawk]

I don’t know if I can follow RoofGardener, but here goes:

Propaganda is their best weapon and that's how lame their weapons are.

Propaganda is more deadly than a sub with a full load of nuclear warheads. Propaganda forced us out of Vietnam and Iraq. The ethnic cleansing in the aftermath that occurred and is occurring is horrendous. Israel isn’t going anywhere; they have the will we lacked.

I don't begrudge people using whatever weapons they have available.

Any neither do I.

Your politically correct weapons don't have any moral superiority over the weapons you're always whining about.

Weapons are not morally superior over another. They are just a tool. The moral superiority goes to the cause and ideology. Article 7 is morally repugnant.

I don't have to believe a word Hamas says or imply that Western media gives the whole picture.

Good for you. But you do have issues with learning character and history. Those two things most people use to decipher the whole picture and not rely on one side or the other.

As for the "nature of rockets" yes they suck.

The Qassam are very unpredictable. Most of the civilian casualties are probably from Qassam misfires. The Khaibar are better. What will the next generation bring? When will they start using GPS components from cell phones as guidance systems? They probably have already experimented with that. What’s that stat about the Palestinian have the #1 ratio of educated in the world? And they use it for purposes of warfare and ideology? Imagine what they could do if it was turned to peace and economy? That’s how sick they really are.

So they're going to need much better weapons. Improvised explosive devices and booby traps, anti-armor weapons, anti-air weapons, machine guns, assault rifles, grenades, they're in great need for all of these things if it's the "war" you think it is.

Unfortunately, they will secure more deadly weapons and Israel will have to react in kind. Their need is great because their sickness is great.

Unfortunately they're restricted on how many calories they can eat a day because as we all know rockets can be made out of cookies.

Yes, they are. At least the sugar (mixed with potassium nitrate) is used as propellant in the Qassam rockets. They probably have a chemical process to leach sugars from compounds.

Added Note: Extracting sugar is probably a job performed by innocent women and children., which means that they are not so innocent. They are part of the Hamas military-industrial complex.

Edited August 15, 2014 by RavenHawk

[RavenHawk]

That all those like you may wake up as a (literal or figurative) Palestinian one day, and walk 'a mile' in their shoes.

Why should we do that? I would image that most of us “those like you” have figuratively woken up in the shoes of the Jew throughout history. I know I do that whenever I see movies like “Schindler’s List”, “Fiddler on the Roof”, “Exodus”, “Cast a Giant Shadow”, etc. that allows one to put one’s self in the shoes of perhaps the longest long-suffering people on the planet. And that through all of that misery, they have never lost their identity or the zest for life, unlike the Palestinian has. That is why the Palestinian finds themselves in the position they do today. In the time of the Ottomans, they were known as Fellahin. A common farm laborer and very few aspired to something better. They were wanderers, not a land-owning class. Everywhere they wandered, they were unwanted. Even today, the neighbors are not interested in having a legitimate Palestinian nation on their borders. They provide just enough support to attack Israel with. Not enough to defeat them.

[+and-then]

Why should we do that? I would image that most of us "those like you" have figuratively woken up in the shoes of the Jew throughout history. I know I do that whenever I see movies like "Schindler's List", "Fiddler on the Roof", "Exodus", "Cast a Giant Shadow", etc. that allows one to put one's self in the shoes of perhaps the longest long-suffering people on the planet. And that through all of that misery, they have never lost their identity or the zest for life, unlike the Palestinian has. That is why the Palestinian finds themselves in the position they do today. In the time of the Ottomans, they were known as Fellahin. A common farm laborer and very few aspired to something better. They were wanderers, not a land-owning class. Everywhere they wandered, they were unwanted. Even today, the neighbors are not interested in having a legitimate Palestinian nation on their borders. They provide just enough support to attack Israel with. Not enough to defeat them.

Exactly! The suffering of the Palestinian is somehow worse than any who have come before - and why? Because it is the JEW who is in the conflict with them. They can spin it until they corkscrew into the ground but that is at the bottom of all the self righteous fusillade against Israel.

[Phaeton80]

Exactly! The suffering of the Palestinian is somehow worse than any who have come before - and why? Because it is the JEW who is in the conflict with them. They can spin it until they corkscrew into the ground but that is at the bottom of all the self righteous fusillade against Israel.

The fact you are actually serious when stating this deluded nonsense is very, very scary.

'those who came before' is unrelated to the Palestinian situation, not relevant - just as it wasnt relevant when the Jews were the ones being oppressed and hunted down by a military force. Or would you also have stated: "The suffering of the JEW is somehow worse than any who have come before - and why? Because it is the GERMAN who is in the conflict with them."?

My family was helping the Jews back then at the risk of being shot, and I am trying to help the Palestinians now in any way I can. What kind of crazed mind would - after all the times I have verbalised my love for the Jewish People - still fallback to this psychotic 'they are just Jew haters - meme?!! Because, sir, you are a blindsided fanatical Zionist, who just cannot stand anyone being critical of the 'holy' Israeli State is actually NOT a Jew hater. You just cannot compute that, burns out your circuits.

You're just a very silly, blindsided, simple minded, fanatical individual. I wish I could help you.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Phaeton80

[docyabut2]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/08/16/purported-letter-from-inside-gaza-tells-tunnel-toil-hamas-cruelty/

[+and-then]

The fact you are actually serious when stating this deluded nonsense is very, very scary.

'those who came before' is unrelated to the Palestinian situation, not relevant - just as it wasnt relevant when the Jews were the ones being oppressed and hunted down by a military force. Or would you also have stated: "The suffering of the JEW is somehow worse than any who have come before - and why? Because it is the GERMAN who is in the conflict with them."?

My family was helping the Jews back then at the risk of being shot, and I am trying to help the Palestinians now in any way I can. What kind of crazed mind would - after all the times I have verbalised my love for the Jewish People - still fallback to this psychotic 'they are just Jew haters - meme?!! Because, sir, you are a blindsided fanatical Zionist, who just cannot stand anyone being critical of the 'holy' Israeli State is actually NOT a Jew hater. You just cannot compute that, burns out your circuits.

You're just a very silly, blindsided, simple minded, fanatical individual. I wish I could help you.

I would take you seriously but for your solution to the Palestinian suffering. You are either a liar or you are in denial about the nature of the hatred the Palestinian has for the Jew. Any right of return or surrender of Judea/Samaria to the Palestinian will make the Jewish state a memory - but only after a massive blood bath. And you who want to appear so wise, you can't admit that reality to yourself. Phaeton if it's such a delusion on my part then why do they say it themselves? REGULARLY...IN PRINT? Why is that Phaeton? Are they children that we should dismiss their hate filled expressions of murderous intent? Or are they mentally deranged and we shouldn't pay attention to their ramblings? What more does it take to convince you of a person's sincerity than their actual thoughts being expressed - REGULARLY about a topic?

[dr no]

I don't think so. You definitely blindly follow one side. Your default position is anti-Israel.

It's the choice you try to convince yourself of to support your racism.

Has anybody noticed the amount of times the zionists on this board have called people with an opposing point of view racists,anti semitic and Jew haters? It really is getting pathetic now.If any of you people who blindly excuse the actions of the Israeli government dared called me a racist to my face they would be picking their teeth up off the floor.

It really is time this bs stopped.We don't have a problem with Jewish people we have a problem with the murderous regime in Israel,BIG difference

[RavenHawk]

Has anybody noticed the amount of times the zionists on this board have called people with an opposing point of view racists,anti semitic and Jew haters?

Why do you even try? You try to convince everyone that you are so morally righteous yet you have to throw in “Zionist” as if people don’t realize that it has become the new “N” word. Those that use “Zionist” in such a way do not have just an “opposing” view. They are racists. Trying to compare the conflict between the Palestinians and Israel to what Nazi Germany was doing to the Jews (as P80 was just implying) show the ultimate hatred toward Israel. It is horrendous and irrational. And then, Roofgardener, Bee, and others are critical of Israel. I think we all would like Israel to be able to handle this differently, but Hamas forces their hand. What can they do? The Israeli government is responsible to its people. No one can condemn that for either side. But Hamas remains the aggressor here. Hamas is the pariah. Even the Palestinian is at the mercy of Hamas. But no, there are still enough anti-Israeli sentiments that try to convince the world that Israel is the bad guy.

It really is getting pathetic now.If any of you people who blindly excuse the actions of the Israeli government dared called me a racist to my face they would be picking their teeth up off the floor.

Now that statement is pathetic. You don’t want to excuse the actions of the Israeli government but you sure as Hell will blindly excuse the actions of Hamas. That makes you a hypocrite. And this personal threat (don’t worry I won’t report – I prefer that it remain) is a chink in your “but I’m not a racist” façade. You are a phony as this statement proves.

It really is time this bs stopped.We don't have a problem with Jewish people we have a problem with the murderous regime in Israel,BIG difference

Pulling the Ahmadinejad Gambit? You do realize that most Israelis want to see the IDF finish this? The regime in Israel is defending its people. There is no BIG difference. The murderous regime is Hamas and as long as it has Article 7 as the core of their Covenant, they will remain so. Are you so naïve to believe that if Hamas gets everything they demand, that the rocket attacks will end? Who’s the blind one? This is a conflict between two peoples and one is losing badly. Israel needs to end the misery now, or do you just want it to go on and on, just as long as you can keep hurting the Jew? Your hatred just reeks off of your post.

[Phaeton80]

I would take you seriously but for your solution to the Palestinian suffering. You are either a liar or you are in denial about the nature of the hatred the Palestinian has for the Jew. Any right of return or surrender of Judea/Samaria to the Palestinian will make the Jewish state a memory - but only after a massive blood bath. And you who want to appear so wise, you can't admit that reality to yourself. Phaeton if it's such a delusion on my part then why do they say it themselves? REGULARLY...IN PRINT? Why is that Phaeton? Are they children that we should dismiss their hate filled expressions of murderous intent? Or are they mentally deranged and we shouldn't pay attention to their ramblings? What more does it take to convince you of a person's sincerity than their actual thoughts being expressed - REGULARLY about a topic?

We have already covered these aspects several times.

- you cannot expect a people who have been militarily oppressed - and all the unbelievable suffering that entails - for 7 decades and not develop extreme groups from within their ranks. The extreme group you are referring to, Hamas, is not only extremely negative towards Israel, they are one of the very few organisations Palestinians get any real support from (healthcare, charity, general support in all facets of civilian life) in their dire situation. The PA is powerless. If there had been no occupation and oppression, Hamas in its present form would not exist. And the version of Hamas that would exist, would not have anywhere near the support Hamas has now;

- you cannot continue a criminal, strongly inhumane situation because you are afraid of what the victim of your crimes might possibly do to you if and when you release them from your yoke. This is how perverted, twisted individuals who have held some girl chained in the cellar for years abusing her every other night rationalizes for themselves in diciding not letting her go.. "She might bring me harm if I let her go, my life could very well turn into turmoil if I do that.. So I wont.." This is the logic of a literal psychopath, because he or she cannot identify with his or her victim. It is all service to self, purely egotistical and strictly amoral - sick - behaviour;

- if and when the occupation & oppression is ended; reperations, right of return, and a sovereignt Palestinian State granted.. the threat of Palestinian extremism against Israel should be acknowledged by both parties (the new Palestinian State and the Israeli State). Both nations - with due support from the UN for example - should actively work to thwart any and all terrorist activity. Explicitly (a highly funded, highly capable organisation manned by both nations that has the sole mission to terminate all extremist elements with extreme prejudice) and implicitly (starting up social projects, for example subsidizing combined schools for toddlers in 'neutral zones', combined sports teams for teens, even a single soccerteam representing both nations so both cheer for Palestinian and Israeli players etc etc).

Continuing the present course - continuing these crimes against the Palestinian civilians (meaning the occupation & oppression here, not even killing their children after Hamas shoots another one of their ridiculous 'backyard bombs') will inadvertantly end in blood. Ending the source of all the problems (ending occupation & oppression - creation of Palestinian State) could very well pose a plausible threat, yes. But it wont be anymore stringent than already the case now, and at least you're not committing crimes against humanity. But most importantly, at least there is a very real possibility of retaining the pre zionist (rule), peaceful situation.. Where both lived amongst eachother, babysitted eachother's children.. Where fear is eventually traded for the trust & companionship as before.

Only when you actually think all the Palestinians are hellbent on destroying Israel... That its 'in their dna' (which deluded point of view some here will have) to want to destroy Israel.. Only then would it be logical to continue the present military occupation and oppression. Yet, it is just that (conditioned) view - that 'all the Palestinians have declared war against Israel' - marking all women, children and men as actual (military) targets - that is the quintessential extremist mindset. Everyone is guilty. "All of them hate us with a passion and are all plotting our destruction, so we will destroy them first." This is exactly how crimes against humanity are committed by, for all intents and purposes, 'very civilized people'.

[media=]

[/media] Edited August 16, 2014 by Phaeton80

[+and-then]

We have already covered these aspects several times.

- you cannot expect a people who have been militarily oppressed - and all the unbelievable suffering that entails - for 7 decades and not develop extreme groups from within their ranks. The extreme group you are referring to, Hamas, is not only extremely negative towards Israel, they are one of the very few organisations Palestinians get any real support from (healthcare, charity, general support in all facets of civilian life) in their dire situation. The PA is powerless. If there had been no occupation and oppression, Hamas in its present form would not exist. And the version of Hamas that would exist, would not have anywhere near the support Hamas has now;

- you cannot continue a criminal, strongly inhumane situation because you are afraid of what the victim of your crimes might possibly do to you if and when you release them from your yoke. This is how perverted, twisted individuals who have held some girl chained in the cellar for years abusing her every other night rationalizes for themselves in diciding not letting her go.. "She might bring me harm if I let her go, my life could very well turn into turmoil if I do that.. So I wont.." This is the logic of a literal psychopath, because he or she cannot identify with his or her victim. It is all service to self, purely egotistical and strictly amoral - sick - behaviour;

- if and when the occupation & oppression is ended; reperations, right of return, and a sovereignt Palestinian State granted.. the threat of Palestinian extremism against Israel should be acknowledged by both parties (the new Palestinian State and the Israeli State). Both nations - with due support from the UN for example - should actively work to thwart any and all terrorist activity. Explicitly (a highly funded, highly capable organisation manned by both nations that has the sole mission to terminate all extremist elements with extreme prejudice) and implicitly (starting up social projects, for example subsidizing combined schools for toddlers in 'neutral zones', combined sports teams for teens, even a single soccerteam representing both nations so both cheer for Palestinian and Israeli players etc etc).

Continuing the present course - continuing these crimes against the Palestinian civilians (meaning the occupation & oppression here, not even killing their children after Hamas shoots another one of their ridiculous 'backyard bombs') will inadvertantly end in blood. Ending the source of all the problems (ending occupation & oppression - creation of Palestinian State) could very well pose a plausible threat, yes. But it wont be anymore stringent than already the case now, and at least you're not committing crimes against humanity. But most importantly, at least there is a very real possibility of retaining the pre zionist (rule), peaceful situation.. Where both lived amongst eachother, babysitted eachother's children.. Where fear is eventually traded for the trust & companionship as before.

Only when you actually think all the Palestinians are hellbent on destroying Israel... That its 'in their dna' (which deluded point of view some here will have) to want to destroy Israel.. Only then would it be logical to continue the present military occupation and oppression. Yet, it is just that (conditioned) view - that 'all the Palestinians have declared war against Israel' - marking all women, children and men as actual (military) targets - that is the quintessential extremist mindset. Everyone is guilty. "All of them hate us with a passion and are all plotting our destruction, so we will destroy them first." This is exactly how crimes against humanity are committed by, for all intents and purposes, 'very civilized people'.

[media=]

[/media]

You make some good points about how progress COULD be made. And of course I do not believe there are no Palestinians who would be willing to live side by side with Jews. I also realize that there are Jews who are as hateful as some Palestinians. The point is that so long as an ongoing education system inciting Jew hatred is in place in Palestinian schools and homes there is never going to be peace. You seem to think a rational outcome can be created in an irrational situation. Do you sincerely believe that the rockets would stop if all the demands of Hamas were met? And more importantly, what would you have the world community do if Hamas DID continue throwing rockets after their new gains?

[Phaeton80]

I believe input = output. And given time, the extremist element can be controlled, defused.

Give them back their rights, stop this inhumane situation, and the rest o/t world would assist in any way possible to rout out the remaining terrorists. The number of which will fall parallel with the rise of peace & prosperity, not rise as is the case now, with all this carnage.

[+and-then]

I believe input = output. And given time, the extremist element can be controlled, defused.

Give them back their rights, stop this inhumane situation, and the rest o/t world would assist in any way possible to rout out the remaining terrorists. The number of which will fall parallel with the rise of peace & prosperity, not rise as is the case now, with all this carnage.

I believe that you will soon enough get the chance to see a form of your ideas put into effect. Hopefully we can compare notes on how it works out. If I'm wrong I will certainly admit it - no hedging.

[Phaeton80]

And what would happen if youre not wrong, exactly?

[dr no]

Why do you even try? You try to convince everyone that you are so morally righteous yet you have to throw in "Zionist" as if people don't realize that it has become the new "N" word. Those that use "Zionist" in such a way do not have just an "opposing" view. They are racists. Trying to compare the conflict between the Palestinians and Israel to what Nazi Germany was doing to the Jews (as P80 was just implying) show the ultimate hatred toward Israel. It is horrendous and irrational. And then, Roofgardener, Bee, and others are critical of Israel. I think we all would like Israel to be able to handle this differently, but Hamas forces their hand. What can they do? The Israeli government is responsible to its people. No one can condemn that for either side. But Hamas remains the aggressor here. Hamas is the pariah. Even the Palestinian is at the mercy of Hamas. But no, there are still enough anti-Israeli sentiments that try to convince the world that Israel is the bad guy.

Now that statement is pathetic. You don't want to excuse the actions of the Israeli government but you sure as Hell will blindly excuse the actions of Hamas. That makes you a hypocrite. And this personal threat (don't worry I won't report – I prefer that it remain) is a chink in your "but I'm not a racist" façade. You are a phony as this statement proves.

Pulling the Ahmadinejad Gambit? You do realize that most Israelis want to see the IDF finish this? The regime in Israel is defending its people. There is no BIG difference. The murderous regime is Hamas and as long as it has Article 7 as the core of their Covenant, they will remain so. Are you so naïve to believe that if Hamas gets everything they demand, that the rocket attacks will end? Who's the blind one? This is a conflict between two peoples and one is losing badly. Israel needs to end the misery now, or do you just want it to go on and on, just as long as you can keep hurting the Jew? Your hatred just reeks off of your post.

1.Zionism isn't a race its a philosophy supported by many non jews,

2 Opposing the Israeli government policy doesn't mean I am a supporter of Hamas it means I don't accept innocent Palestinians getting murdered

3rd, My uncle Stephan was a Polish Jew,his family were gassed by nazis,luckily he survived(he died in 1987)I went on on Anti Nazi League demos in England when I4,I have actively opposed scum like that all my life,I abhor racism and won't tolerate racists round me,I certainly won't be labelled one.

4th. Report me if you want,but the fact is this,not one person on this forum who is currently against what is happening to the Palestinians has resorted to calling people racist,yet you think you can get a pass for it?

[+and-then]

1.Zionism isn't a race its a philosophy supported by many non jews,

2 Opposing the Israeli government policy doesn't mean I am a supporter of Hamas it means I don't accept innocent Palestinians getting murdered

3rd, My uncle Stephan was a Polish Jew,his family were gassed by nazis,luckily he survived(he died in 1987)I went on on Anti Nazi League demos in England when I4,I have actively opposed scum like that all my life,I abhor racism and won't tolerate racists round me,I certainly won't be labelled one.

4th. Report me if you want,but the fact is this,not one person on this forum who is currently against what is happening to the Palestinians has resorted to calling people racist,yet you think you can get a pass for it?

I can vouch for the truth of point number 1. I am not a Jew yet am devoutly Zionist. I firmly believe that the descendants of Abraham, ISAAC and Jacob have a divine right to the land between the Nile and the Euphrates. I realize that they will not have all the land until God decides they are ready for it. If those who look at the current situation dismiss the divine aspect then I can see how they could readily line up against Israel. The Jews of Israel tend in majority to be secular and I'm sure that many are far more interested in "free land" than in the inheritance of their ancestors. I do not support the acts of those who wilfully harm Palestinians but I also do not believe that the Palestinians have a right to ALL THE LAND. This is the point that all the supporters here of the Palestinians continually reject in spite of the words DAILY that the Palestinians spout. Israel is to give the Palestinian every thing they demand and then there will be peace, right? And if not? Then what? Will you support the Jews who are being murdered and run from their homes? Because I can tell you that the reaction of Europeans will be identical to what we see from them right now. They won't lift a FINGER to help. Fortunately the IDF doesn't need their help.

[RavenHawk]

We have already covered these aspects several times.

Yes we have and you still refuse to listen. There are two sides to this. The Jews isn’t the bad guy in this. This has been going on, back-and-forth ever since the Jew decided to fight the Muslim oppression. The Muslim has been fighting for the status quo and the Islamic faith and the Jews have been fighting for the right of self determination for at least 200 years if not longer. The Tanzimat reforms are what gave the Jew the idea of self determination.

- you cannot expect a people who have been militarily oppressed - and all the unbelievable suffering that entails - for 7 decades and not develop extreme groups from within their ranks.

And how long have the Jews in Palestine been oppressed? Certainly longer than just a mere 7 decades. What part of that do you not understand? History is against you so you would easily dismiss it.

The extreme group you are referring to, Hamas, is not only extremely negative towards Israel, they are one of the very few organisations Palestinians get any real support from (healthcare, charity, general support in all facets of civilian life) in their dire situation. The PA is powerless.

Hamas gets what they pay for – human shields and cheap labor. When you convince the population that the supplies you give them is all they have to give meanwhile they use the quality stuff to build Qassam rockets, tunnels, and feed their fighters.

If there had been no occupation and oppression, Hamas in its present form would not exist. And the version of Hamas that would exist, would not have anywhere near the support Hamas has now;

There would still be an entity representing the Palestinian bent on the destruction of Israel. It doesn’t matter what the name of the organization is. It would have been Hamas, the PA, the PLO, or something else all with direct roots from Nazi Germany.

- you cannot continue a criminal, strongly inhumane situation because you are afraid of what the victim of your crimes might possibly do to you if and when you release them from your yoke.

It’s not being afraid of what Hamas might do. It is a fact and promise what the Muslims will do. Just like what ISIS is doing to non-Muslims. If the world would condemn Hamas for using their civilians as human shields, they would eventually stop throwing them in harm’s way when they find out that they’ll no longer be able to control those like you. That they will no longer find capital in doing this. It is your kind that encourages them to do what they do. You keep the misery going.

In the parable of “The Scorpion and the Frog”, a scorpion asks a frog to carry him over a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stung the frog, both would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature. The fable is used to illustrate the position that no change can be made in the behavior of the fundamentally vicious. Hamas portrays the scorpion in this case. Why should Israel let down her guard? And you are trying to tell Israel not to worry about it. To follow your advice would be the ultimate of stupidity.

This is how perverted, twisted individuals who have held some girl chained in the cellar for years abusing her every other night rationalizes for themselves in diciding not letting her go.. "She might bring me harm if I let her go, my life could very well turn into turmoil if I do that.. So I wont.." This is the logic of a literal psychopath, because he or she cannot identify with his or her victim. It is all service to self, purely egotistical and strictly amoral - sick - behaviour;

No, it is your illogic. In your example, the girl would have to start throwing rocks at the twisted individual and breaking into his house terrorizing him long before she is chained up in the cellar. It is a poor analogy that you create to express your hatred of Israel.

- if and when the occupation & oppression is ended; reperations, right of return, and a sovereignt Palestinian State granted.. the threat of Palestinian extremism against Israel should be acknowledged by both parties (the new Palestinian State and the Israeli State).

It already is acknowledged by both sides. It is ingrained in Hamas’ Covenant.

Both nations - with due support from the UN for example - should actively work to thwart any and all terrorist activity.

“Work to thwart” will only enable it to continue directed at the Jew and if the UN should get in the way, they will feel the wrath, just as it happened with the British. This is still a conflict between Jew and Muslim. It’s best that they work it out for themselves.

Explicitly (a highly funded, highly capable organisation manned by both nations that has the sole mission to terminate all extremist elements with extreme prejudice) and implicitly (starting up social projects, for example subsidizing combined schools for toddlers in 'neutral zones', combined sports teams for teens, even a single soccerteam representing both nations so both cheer for Palestinian and Israeli players etc etc).

Excuse me? And what are you smoking? Forcing them to do this isn’t going to solve anything. 1400 years of Islamic rule and dominance hasn’t changed. Islamic Ideology is at the core of the problem here. I’d suggest you look into what Shirk is. Your European Secular Progressive mindset is completely out of touch with the real world. And you want the Arabs to live the way you want them to?

Continuing the present course - continuing these crimes against the Palestinian civilians (meaning the occupation & oppression here, not even killing their children after Hamas shoots another one of their ridiculous 'backyard bombs') will inadvertantly end in blood. Ending the source of all the problems (ending occupation & oppression - creation of Palestinian State) could very well pose a plausible threat, yes. But it wont be anymore stringent than already the case now, and at least you're not committing crimes against humanity. But most importantly, at least there is a very real possibility of retaining the pre zionist (rule), peaceful situation.. Where both lived amongst eachother, babysitted eachother's children.. Where fear is eventually traded for the trust & companionship as before.

They are punitive actions brought on by the Palestinian themselves. Trying to marginalize the threat from the rockets so you can demonize Israeli? And how many ridiculous backyard bombs is it going to take to kill enough Jews to make you happy? The source of the problem is Hamas firing rockets and their Covenant to destroy Israel. Zionism is simply the desire of the Jew to live in peace and be able to defend themselves without third-party involvement. What irks you about Zionism is that it means a fiercely independent Jew. The Muslims can’t have that so close to their territory. To them a good Jew is a dead Jew. Zionism is what protects the Jew from becoming Dhimmis. Without that strong identity, the Arab armies would roll right in and do the same thing ISIS is doing. There is no ifs or maybes. And what will you do if that was allowed to happen? You would cheer it. At least that is what your words are telling everyone.

Only when you actually think all the Palestinians are hellbent on destroying Israel... That its 'in their dna' (which deluded point of view some here will have) to want to destroy Israel.. Only then would it be logical to continue the present military occupation and oppression.

Not exactly. True, not all Palestinians are hell-bent on the destruction of Israel, but enough of them democratically elected Hamas to represent them. So as long as Hamas represents them, they are all guilty of wanting to destroy Israel. If there are truly enough that does not believe that, then let them vote out Hamas and then set up a police force to prevent future attacks. Once the Palestinian has shown that this is who they really are and that they have control of the situation, then I can see Israel lifting the blockade with an eye toward normalization. It won’t happen any other way. Why don’t you put your energies into seeing that happens?

Yet, it is just that (conditioned) view - that 'all the Palestinians have declared war against Israel' - marking all women, children and men as actual (military) targets - that is the quintessential extremist mindset. Everyone is guilty.

And that is all your mindset and Hamas’. All civilians are not targets, in fact none are targets. If civilians are killed, it’s because Hamas uses them as shields. I guess you can’t grasp that. How many times has it been established that Israel takes great pains to avoid civilian casualties? That doesn’t register with you. You just ignore that and go about your way blaming Israel for their deaths.

"All of them hate us with a passion and are all plotting our destruction, so we will destroy them first." This is exactly how crimes against humanity are committed by, for all intents and purposes, 'very civilized people'.

Well, Israel isn’t doing that. But you don’t want to believe that because of your hatred. That may be your wet dream but that isn’t what is going on. Israel just wants to live in peace. If it can’t have that then it will encourage the Palestinian to move on. ISIS is committing crimes against humanity. If Israel was doing the same, then they wouldn’t go to the trouble to assure that civilians are out of the way. Isn’t that right? If Israel was committing genocide, they wouldn’t stop for civilians to move, they would just lay a carpet barrage, destroying everything. Something that your mind hasn’t tried to rationalize yet and that is that about 10% of rockets fired don’t make it out of Gaza. That’s about 350 rockets that land back into populated areas. Given Israeli tactics, the events with higher loss of life are from Hamas rockets. Do you understand?

The Orthodox Jew in the clip stated that the Zionist movement disrupted the peaceful coexistence between Jew and Palestinian or so his grandmother told him. The Zionist movement began long before the time of his grandmother and up until 1948 there were some Arab tribes and clans that did try to live in peace with the Jew, but the majority refused to do so. And those few tribes and clans paid the price at the hands of their brothers. That Orthodox Jew as had the luxury to live in a secure state all his life. I wonder what he would do if that all changed and he was forced into Dhimmitude?

[Phaeton80]

You need help, seriously.

[+and-then]

You need help, seriously.

'smatter P? No room in your philosophy for divergent opinions?

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

You need help, seriously.

You know why I don't even read his posts, let alone attempt conversation with him?

[RoofGardener]

You need help, seriously.

Feeble Phato80, really feeble.

You can't address the rebutal, so you attack the poster. This is called "An Ad-Hominem Attack", and it is a sign of a weak - or non-existent - defence.

[RavenHawk]

1.Zionism isn't a race its a philosophy supported by many non jews,

That is correct. It’s a bit nit-picky but you have to be a Jew to be a Zionist. If you support Israel and are not a Jew, then you are pro-Zionist. It really doesn’t matter. But however you look at it, “Zionist” is not the new “N” word. And if you use it as such, then you might be a racist.

2 Opposing the Israeli government policy doesn't mean I am a supporter of Hamas it means I don't accept innocent Palestinians getting murdered

But evidently you support innocent Israelis getting murdered and innocent Palestinians at the hands of Hamas so you can blame it on Israel. The first order of business of the Israeli government is to protect its people. That’s the case with most nations. However, the primary job of Hamas is the destruction of Israel and to sacrifice as many of its populace to achieve this goal according to the will of Allah. If you don’t accept innocent Palestinians getting murdered then condemn Hamas for their actions. If enough people will do that, then the use of human shields will drop significantly.

3rd, My uncle Stephan was a Polish Jew,his family were gassed by nazis,luckily he survived(he died in 1987)I went on on Anti Nazi League demos in England when I4,I have actively opposed scum like that all my life,I abhor racism and won't tolerate racists round me,I certainly won't be labelled one.

My Polish father-in-law survived the Siberian gulags. If the Germans had got to his family first instead of the Soviets, they would have been executed. Later, his father went on to fight with General Anders in Italy. First you have to understand what racism is. If you truly understand what it is, you’d know that there are racists on both sides. But the policies that Israel follows against the Palestinian are not racism. They are policies of self defense. Defense is not racism. Article 7 of the Hamas Covenant is racism. If you don’t want to be labeled one then don’t be counted in their ranks. That’s why I never will be, no matter how PC it is. And it seems to be PC to be racist against Jews.

4th. Report me if you want,

Don’t worry, I never will report you. I feel it better to leave your posts up so others may view them in perpetuity. Then people can judge you as to whether you misspoke (as we all do from time to time) or if your ideology is as you represent it to be.

but the fact is this,not one person on this forum who is currently against what is happening to the Palestinians has resorted to calling people racist,yet you think you can get a pass for it?

Excuse me? Any time I see someone support Israel, they get called racist or any other sorts of insults. Most people that support Israel don’t cheer what is happening to the Palestinian but at the same time, we know that the Palestinian has brought it on themselves. What are we suppose to do? Condemn Israel? That is a bit irrational. Heaven knows they have had chance after chance to better their position and they’ve thrown it away or made the wrong choice. How many chances should one group get before we give up? No one group on the face of the planet has been given so many chances. Shouldn’t we be focused on savaging the Assyrians (Chaldeans) and Yazidis? That’s where the real racism and genocide is occurring and to ignore this for the Palestinian is truly an indication of blind hatred for the Jews. I’m making sure you don’t get a pass. It seems that every time I make such a substantial response, the only thing I get back are crickets or replies like the ones we just saw from P80 and EoT. Real pathetic! That tells me that they are running purely on knee-jerk emotions and racism against Jews.

[Phaeton80]

Feeble Phato80, really feeble.

You can't address the rebutal, so you attack the poster. This is called "An Ad-Hominem Attack", and it is a sign of a weak - or non-existent - defence.

Erm, no. Thats called 'genuine concern' based on a continuous barrage of extremely disturbing rhetoric (extremism). If you cannot discern this I worry about you as well. No joke (unless ofcourse, youre getting payed to do this). And 'the Ad Hominem Attack' is actually the tactic wielded - almost without exception - by the very poster I commented on. But you know that very well.

You also know what you have stated here is nonsense, as did AT (or so I hope for both your sakes), but you both saw an opening for a cheap shot staring you square in the face, and took it. Thank you kindly for further defining your respective profiles gentlemen. The concept of honest intent is obviously alien to some here.

Remember, 'If at first you dont succeed, try, try, try again..'