THIS is Hamas

[RavenHawk]

Erm, no. Thats called 'genuine concern' based on a continuous barrage of extremely disturbing rhetoric (extremism). If you cannot discern this I worry about you as well. No joke (unless ofcourse, youre getting payed to do this). And 'the Ad Hominem Attack' is actually the tactic wielded - almost without exception - by the very poster I commented on. But you know that very well.

You also know what you have stated here is nonsense, as did AT (or so I hope for both your sakes), but you both saw an opening for a cheap shot staring you square in the face, and took it. Thank you kindly for further defining your respective profiles gentlemen. The concept of honest intent is obviously alien to some here.

Remember, 'If at first you dont succeed, try, try, try again..'

And with that, thank you for conceding.

[SHaYap]

07/19/2014 - 21:38

The evidence that shows Iron Dome is not working

Theodore A. Postol

....

A need for Israeli transparency. I do not know precisely why Iron Dome interceptors are not engaging most artillery rockets using the proper front-on geometry. It is clear that the Iron Dome radar tracking and guidance system is not working as it should work; it is initially sending Iron Dome missiles to intercept points that then result in interceptors not being able to achieve the right engagement geometries when they start the process of homing on targeted artillery rockets. Photographs from November 2012 show such problems, and pictures from July of this year indicate that Iron Dome interceptors are still behaving erratically, resulting in continued low intercept rates.

.....

• theBulletin.org link
  

Iron Dome or Iron Sieve? Evidence Questions Effectiveness of U.S.-Funded Israeli Missile Shield

... Meanwhile, members of Congress are working to supply hundreds of millions of dollars in additional funding for Israel’s "Iron Dome" missile shield. While U.S. news anchors, pundits and politicians have repeatedly extolled the efficacy of the Iron Dome in deflecting rocket attacks, the acclaimed physicist Theodore Postol says there is no evidence Iron Dome is actually working. He estimates the Iron Dome, which is partially built by Raytheon, intercepts just 5 percent of rockets fired at Israel. A professor of science, technology and national security policy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Postol is an expert in missiles, missile defenses and other aspects of modern warfare.

• democracynow.org link
  

~ Good ol' American Taxpayers Dollars well sieved ~ and served ~

~

[+and-then]

• theBulletin.org link
  

• democracynow.org link
  

~ Good ol' American Taxpayers Dollars well sieved ~ and served ~

~

So as needful as Israel is of proving they actually ARE being harmed by Hamas rockets and therefore are responding justifiably, they are covering up damage due to failed Iron Dome defenses? Is that about right?

[Yamato]

Is it about right that we have no moral responsibility to take care of other people in the world with problems far worse than Israel that can afford to pay for itself?

No social safety net for Ukraine banning those Russian sympathizers smuggling Russian weapons across the border? No umbrellas to protect Ukrainian fighter jets or Ukrainian civilians. Ukraine isn't under threat of losing its land to Russia or anything. Crimea didn't just get annexed or anything. People aren't dying of starvation or disease or tribal warfare or refugee crises in Africa or anything. Someone got injured by a rocket, so all hail $Israel$

[+and-then]

• theBulletin.org link
  

• democracynow.org link
  

~ Good ol' American Taxpayers Dollars well sieved ~ and served ~

~

I noticed the link was from Democracy Now and inferred it was pure leftist propaganda - and I was correct. The statement that the Iron Dome "only intercepts 5%" of incoming missiles is probably completely correct. But it's still completely misleading. The system costs about 50K $ per missile to use. It is sophisticated enough to track WHERE the inbound originated AND where it will land. No need to waste 50K on something that's going to land in a field.

[SHaYap]

So as needful as Israel is of proving they actually ARE being harmed by Hamas rockets and therefore are responding justifiably, they are covering up damage due to failed Iron Dome defenses? Is that about right?

Nope ... what you are presenting here is ... as usual your cesspool of prejudiced and highly biased views ~ hardly even an opinion at all as you are again as usual missing the point ~

I noticed the link was from Democracy Now and inferred it was pure leftist propaganda - and I was correct. The statement that the Iron Dome "only intercepts 5%" of incoming missiles is probably completely correct. But it's still completely misleading. The system costs about 50K $ per missile to use. It is sophisticated enough to track WHERE the inbound originated AND where it will land. No need to waste 50K on something that's going to land in a field.

'Propaganda' ?

how ironically amusing coming from you ~

~

to quote Yam ~ so all hail $Israel$

~

or in other words ... beggars can't be choosin' ~ Obama is now reduced to grovelling all over the world to keep Americans living in comfort with the usual 'standards of living their way of life' ~

~

[RoofGardener]

It is possible that both sides are correct.

The thrust of the article seems to be that the IDF are reporting "successful intercepts", and the IDF may well be telling the truth. The accusation, however, is that not all intercepts detonate the incoming rocket's warhead. Instead, the Iron Dome interceptor just damages the body of the rocket.

In this scenario, the rocket will be knocked badly off-course, but will still hit the ground, and it is quite possible (though NOT guaranteed) that the warhead could still explode.

To my way of thinking, this is dodgy logic anyway . Even with a destroyed warhead, the body of the rocket would still presumably exist - it wouldn't be totally atomised - so you are going to get bits of metal falling to ground at several hundreds of miles per hour. Hardly good for your health if you get hit by them.

Still, I guess that's better than being hit by a high-explosive warhead.

[+and-then]

It is possible that both sides are correct.

The thrust of the article seems to be that the IDF are reporting "successful intercepts", and the IDF may well be telling the truth. The accusation, however, is that not all intercepts detonate the incoming rocket's warhead. Instead, the Iron Dome interceptor just damages the body of the rocket.

In this scenario, the rocket will be knocked badly off-course, but will still hit the ground, and it is quite possible (though NOT guaranteed) that the warhead could still explode.

To my way of thinking, this is dodgy logic anyway . Even with a destroyed warhead, the body of the rocket would still presumably exist - it wouldn't be totally atomised - so you are going to get bits of metal falling to ground at several hundreds of miles per hour. Hardly good for your health if you get hit by them.

Still, I guess that's better than being hit by a high-explosive warhead.

With roughly 3000 rockets fired, if most that had been a real threat to life and property had not been intercepted successfully then there would have been considerably more damage in Israel that they could be pointing to in justification for their ground offensive. The idea that they are covering up a failed system seems silly to me.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

With roughly 3000 rockets fired, if most that had been a real threat to life and property had not been intercepted successfully then there would have been considerably more damage in Israel that they could be pointing to in justification for their ground offensive. The idea that they are covering up a failed system seems silly to me.

I look at it this way, if Hamas bottle rockets did significant damage in Israel, the Israelis would have returned ten times the volley long long ago.

I base that on Israel's history

[Yamato]

If an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, 20 eyes for an eye makes you blind 20 times faster.

[+and-then]

I look at it this way, if Hamas bottle rockets did significant damage in Israel, the Israelis would have returned ten times the volley long long ago.

I base that on Israel's history

Very probably. The point though, was that 3rd eye posted a link that brings into doubt the efficacy of Iron Dome. The ID is the only bright spot for Israel in this whole, drawn out mess. And I assure you that you'd not want to be within shrapnel range of one of those "bottle rockets". And if one happens to penetrate the roof of that Golden dome in Jerusalem then all bets are gonna be off. Hamas would NEVER admit the mistake and the whole damned Islamic world would rise up. Those homemade missiles are very dangerous.

[RoofGardener]

I look at it this way, if Hamas bottle rockets did significant damage in Israel, the Israelis would have returned ten times the volley long long ago.

I base that on Israel's history

(underlining is mine, not in the original)

/me chokes on his mug of English Breakfast tea.....

Have certain people not, in this 'ere very forum, criticised Israel for responding disproportionately to rocket attacks ? Now you're saying that they didn't retaliate enough.

With roughly 3000 rockets fired, if most that had been a real threat to life and property had not been intercepted successfully then there would have been considerably more damage in Israel that they could be pointing to in justification for their ground offensive. The idea that they are covering up a failed system seems silly to me.

...........

Very probably. The point though, was that 3rd eye posted a link that brings into doubt the efficacy of Iron Dome. The ID is the only bright spot for Israel in this whole, drawn out mess. And I assure you that you'd not want to be within shrapnel range of one of those "bottle rockets". And if one happens to penetrate the roof of that Golden dome in Jerusalem then all bets are gonna be off. Hamas would NEVER admit the mistake and the whole damned Islamic world would rise up. Those homemade missiles are very dangerous.

I think the truth is a little more complicated.

Firstly, 3rd Eye's linked article DOES make the suggestion that the reason for the ineffectiveness of HAMAS's rockets are NOT Iron Dome intercepts, but instead the efficiency of Israel's civil defence plans and systems. The main cities seem to have a very effective air-raid warning system, plus shelters and berms to hide in/behind, and the citizenry is well practiced at using them.

Now, in regard Iron Dome; I don't think the IDF would lie outright about the system. However, they WOULD paint it in its best light. This would be for domestic morale purposes, as well as to discourage the enemy, and even to boost foreign sales.So they might - hypothetically - 'talk up' the intercept statistics, and play down the "warhead destruction" stats.

There is no doubt that ID is a major technological triumph, both in terms of the hardware, and the decision-making software. The US has managed to hit Long-Range SCUD ballistic missiles with their Patriot system, but I don't think that ANYBODY has made a system that can intercept something as small as a GRAD rocket before. Whether this becomes a truly effective defence... well... ID has been heavily used in the last few months, so there are a lot of statistics available, and a lot of people will have seen them (not least being the battery operators themselves). With that much information floating around, the truth will out !

Edited August 20, 2014 by RoofGardener

[bee]

.

It was just on the BBC news...a short item...that Hamas has executed 18 people accused of giving information to Israel

about potential targets...

there must be growing unrest within Gaza...and although around 44% voted for Hamas...that leaves a majority who didn't...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006

.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

.

It was just on the BBC news...a short item...that Hamas has executed 18 people accused of giving information to Israel

about potential targets...

there must be growing unrest within Gaza...and although around 44% voted for Hamas...that leaves a majority who didn't...

http://en.wikipedia...._election,_2006

.

It is appears to be the case.

Israel took out three top leaders of Hamas in a bombing/missile attack and the Hamas thinks collaborators with Israel gave their location away

They did the same to Gazans that Hamas thought gave away the location of Hamas' many tunnells

[+and-then]

It is appears to be the case.

Israel took out three top leaders of Hamas in a bombing/missile attack and the Hamas thinks collaborators with Israel gave their location away

They did the same to Gazans that Hamas thought gave away the location of Hamas' many tunnells

According to other news reports, most of those tunnel diggers were children - nice huh?

[Yamato]

Yeah western media interviewed the tunnel diggers and asked them all their ages. The coverage from Gaza has been non-existent across the entire US media the whole time. You can't even get the US media to say "Palestine". It's Hamas and Israel at every mention of the conflict.

[RoofGardener]

Hmmm.... interesting point.

Is HAMAS still considered to be a part of the Palestinian Authority ?

If not, is Gaza still considered to be part of the new Palestinian Nation ?

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

According to other news reports, most of those tunnel diggers were children - nice huh?

BOINK!

I'm not sure if that has any relevance.

The story I read about the Hamas executing some of the tunnel diggers for collaborating with Israel were men.

It's a war effort that Gazans are being severely beaten and survival puts peopl einto doing funny things some times.

[RoofGardener]

BOINK!

I'm not sure if that has any relevance.

The story I read about the Hamas executing some of the tunnel diggers for collaborating with Israel were men.

It's a war effort that Gazans are being severely beaten and survival puts peopl einto doing funny things some times.

Well then, they shouldn't have started the war, should they ? As far as the Gaza Strip is concerned, it is NOT under Israeli occupation; the Palestinians are masters of their own fate, and just LOOK what they've done with it ?

Remember history: Israel fully pulled out of the Gaza Strip in 2005, leaving behind a modern infrastructure, with farms and factories ready to be taken over. There where non of the current import restrictions from Israel, nor a naval blockade. Still the rockets where fired. Over 1000 in 2006, and almost 3000 in 2007. Then there was the Palestinian Civil War, and HAMAS took over Gaza. Only THEN where the Israeli export restrictions imposed.

They could have created a model for the new Palestine; instead they created a hell for themselves. Don't blame Israel for that decision.

[Phaeton80]

A very poignant - normally excessively abundant - description of the 'human shield' (non-) argument.

[media=]

[/media] Edited August 30, 2014 by Phaeton80

[Yamato]

It takes a lot of nerve for non-Americans who are conveniently not participating in the act of giving Israel money to both

1. Not condemn their own government for not giving Israel money

and

2. Attack peoples' characters with all that "anti-Semitic" crap, even for the mere suggestion that the US govt do the exact same thing their own lackey ("anti-Semitic") govt does.

For all the usual suspects, it wasn't #1 before it was #2. They should eat their own cooking or shut up with the assaulting other people for recommending their own damn recipe.

Seriously how bold does hypocrisy get with this issue anymore?

[RoofGardener]

Wow.. thats quite a thicket of double-negatives there Yamato. However, having hacked through them, I think I'd agree with you.

I'm not American (tick),

I don't condemn my government for not giving aid to Israel. Why should we ? Israel doesn't need it. (tick)

I don't tick point three though. If the US government wants to prop up its own arms industries by funneling taxpayers dollars into them via Israel, then that is America's business. Personally, I'd prefer to see it stop, and Israel make its own jet planes etc, but I'd hardly criticise America for it.

[Phaeton80]

Id be very interested to hear.. read your reaction to the vdo in post 545, mr. Gardener.

[RoofGardener]

Id be very interested to hear.. read your reaction to the vdo in post 545, mr. Gardener.

My reaction is

1) It's contrary to the T+C - and common politeness - to post "blank" video's .... e.g. without any accompanying text explaining what they are about, or how it is relevant to the discussion.

2) I listened to two minutes, hoping to hear Elizabeth Warrens speech. Instead, I was just treated to some person espousing his own editorial. From that perspective, it was a fraudulant post.

I can't help but note that the TV Network that produced this article is under the control of Al Jazeera ?

Make of that what you will.

I got bored and didn't listen any further. The world has thousands of opinions , Phaeton80. Feel free to give us yours , and I will gladly listen to it. But don't insult the forum by posting some random american Internet Jockey spouting his/hers.

[Phaeton80]

Thats what I thought.

Thank you.