THIS is Hamas

[TheLionsHunter]

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=12019

If they are not using these civilians to protect their firing positions then why is their presence in a KNOWN killzone necessary?

If I refused to move from my home, am I considered a human shield. sorry to say that but you need a 5th grade logic to understand that what you said is nonsense.

[Yamato]

The same can be said about your racist narrative. Yes, we have been over this many times and you don't learn. You see, and then, roofgardener, and myself all have a little different view points but we basically agree. We come at this using facts, logic, history, and a basic understanding of human nature. We see the POV of both sides and recognize that even though both sides share in the blame, it is Hamas that is the belligerent in this. All you do is spew hatred and you never stop to consider what we are talking about because it would interfere with espousing your hatred. Now don't let us stop you, but just remember, when you act irresponsibly, one or all of us will rub your nose in it.

Excuse me? Up until sometime after 1973, Israel *WAS* the underdog. Her Rights were violated by design (Quran). The Palestinians now use the victim card to great effect to show their cowardice. Because it doesn't matter how you win, just as long as you win. This defeat will push Hamas to even more irrational acts, instead of building a nation, they will lead their nation into ruining trying to destroy Israel.

It's the biggest terrorist camp in the world today. If this were genocide, then there would be 10s of thousands dead.

The point is that they still think Israel is. They just need to get world opinion going again them.

In this case, Gaza doesn't have to be a de jure state. It is a terrorist state either way. The point that roofgardener was making was the Irgun and that State of Israel, although both Jewish organizations, are not the same. The State of Israel has the responsibility to protect its citizens. On the other hand, the responsibility of Hamas should be to do likewise, not trying to destroy Israel. Israel will now be force to tighten the blockade around Gaza.

Let's try this again. Let's say that Israel backs off, pulls out of all "occupied land", lifts the blockade, etc. There would be no reason for rockets or suicide bombers, right? So I ask you, how long before those things happen again? And then what should Israel's response be?

Well when you finally find the leaders of the US or Israel who are spouting this bologna of yours about the Qu'ran being the problem, I won't have to think that you're just inventing your own invective.

Let's answer this again. Let's say Israel backs off, pulls out of all "occupied land" and lifts the blockade, plus whatever etc means. There would be no reason to criticize Israel for ending it's criminal siege of 800,000 children in Gaza, for ending its criminal occupation of the West Bank and its "undivided Jerusalem" or the regularly scheduled military massacres of women and children.

The point is that they still think Israel is. They just need to get world opinion going again them

You don't know they think much less what they "just need."

It's the biggest terrorist camp in the world today. If this were genocide, then there would be 10s of thousands dead.

Yeah because the dictionary and encyclopedia definitions of genocide aren't correct. So we should consult you on it instead.

The point that roofgardener was making was the Irgun and that State of Israel, although both Jewish organizations, are not the same.

Well how clever is that. But let me guess, Gaza and Hamas are the same.

Eat your own cooking, RavenHawk.

[+and-then]

If I refused to move from my home, am I considered a human shield. sorry to say that but you need a 5th grade logic to understand that what you said is nonsense.

No... I was making the assumption that a RATIONAL human being - especially one with women and children to care for - would try to save their own lives if they knew they might die. If they CHOOSE not to leave then no one has killed them unjustly. Your argument is silly.

[Leonardo]

No... I was making the assumption that a RATIONAL human being - especially one with women and children to care for - would try to save their own lives if they knew they might die. If they CHOOSE not to leave then no one has killed them unjustly. Your argument is silly.

Which argument might be extended that the Israelis are not rational - as all of them know they might die, but stay where they are regardless.

So, the point you were trying to make was?

[RoofGardener]

You just keep repeating the same bs narrative as if we haven't already been over this. Israel has never been the underdog. Gaza is the biggest Pogrom in the world today. But they're not the ones picking on the 90 pound weakling.

Irgun wasn't carrying out state policy because Israel wasn't a state yet and so it's okay? What is this crap have to do with anything? Gaza isn't a state yet either. Derp.

Can't you EVER stick to the point ?

You make an accusation about Israel.

I rebut the accusation, using historical facts.

You ignore my point, and throw in some random diversionary point.

Yamato... you can't debate. All you can do is bait and switch.

[TheLionsHunter]

No... I was making the assumption that a RATIONAL human being - especially one with women and children to care for - would try to save their own lives if they knew they might die. If they CHOOSE not to leave then no one has killed them unjustly. Your argument is silly.

This whole Reply wasn't really necessary, because it showed that your point is not clear and proved my point of saying nonsense.

[Yamato]

Can't you EVER stick to the point ?

You make an accusation about Israel.

I rebut the accusation, using historical facts.

You ignore my point, and throw in some random diversionary point.

Yamato... you can't debate. All you can do is bait and switch.

I didn't ignore your rebuttal I questioned your rebuttal. You can't answer my questions so I get insults and I make you into a child.

Your "Historical facts" don't excuse tyranny; I'm not going to bomb Germany because of the Holocaust, I'm going to bomb Germany if it besieges Poland.

[acidhead]

Terrorism is a predictable consequence and reaction from an out matched oppressed people who are being ethnically cleansed and racially colonized by religious fanatics installed there in the 1940s by European powers. --RD

[Phaeton80]

Terrorism is a predictable consequence and reaction from an out matched oppressed people who are being ethnically cleansed and racially colonized by religious fanatics installed there in the 1940s by European powers. --RD

Exactly.

Thank god for people like yourself.

[Yamato]

Violent reactions to oppression are not "terrorism", they're anti-terrorism. We don't see a Jew with a .22 in occupied France shoot a Nazi in the back of the head and then go tell our friends that he's a "terrorist" because he shot a government goon administering the occupation.

Likewise, these rockets aren't acts of terror, they're cries for help.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Yamato

[Leonardo]

Violent reactions to oppression are not "terrorism", they're anti-terrorism. We don't see a Jew with a .22 in occupied France shoot a Nazi in the back of the head and then go tell our friends that he's a "terrorist" because he shot a government goon administering the occupation.

Likewise, these rockets aren't acts of terror, they're cries for help.

No, the rocket attacks by Palestinian militants into Israel's civilian suburbs are acts of terrorism by any definition of the word. They are not "cries for help", nor are they "anti-terrorism" - whatever that may mean.

However, terrorism does not appear in a vacuum - it is a reaction to actual or perceived oppression by a more powerful adversary.

[Yamato]

No, the rocket attacks by Palestinian militants into Israel's civilian suburbs are acts of terrorism by any definition of the word. They are not "cries for help", nor are they "anti-terrorism" - whatever that may mean.

However, terrorism does not appear in a vacuum - it is a reaction to actual or perceived oppression by a more powerful adversary.

Anti terrorism means FIGHTING TERRORISM. What planet are we on where oppression isn't terrorism and fighting against it is? They are cries for help and they are anti-terrorism. You do not oppress populations of people and then get to play the terrorist card on anyone.

[Yamato]

"Yes I know my enemies,

They're the teachers who taught me to fight me.

Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission

Ignorance, hypocrisy, brutality, the Elite

All of which are American dreams."

~ Tom Morello, Zack de la Rocha

[Leonardo]

Anti terrorism means FIGHTING TERRORISM. What planet are we on where oppression isn't terrorism and fighting against it is? They are cries for help and they are anti-terrorism. You do not oppress populations of people and then get to play the terrorist card on anyone.

The launching of rockets into civilian neighbourhoods is terrorism, not simply "fighting against oppression". Both Hamas and the Israeli govt/military engage in terrorism, which is the deliberate targetting of civilians for the purpose of imposing an ideology through terror.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Well, the actions of Israel are not criminal. But if you keep saying it enough times, the totally unaware will start believing it. I would call that deceptive.

Oh, sure. Stealing land in an act of war is not against UN rule?

Religious cleansing is NOT against UN and international law?

Keeping people with title to a home in Palestine from going back to their home is not a crime???

Ignoring important UN resolutions that try to let the Pals back home is not a crime?

You were the one that said in here that about half the people in Palestine back in the 1920's were either Christian or Sephardi Jew - is that correct?? If so, how come only Muslims got pushed off the land and into refugee camps in foreign lands??

Either you're not too swift or you are in heavy denial.

The Israelis are but the instrument. The responsibility belongs to Hamas and the inevitable punishment of the Palestinian will be in their own hands.

Apparently you are only talking about Israel's latest incursion. there's been so many

Depends on what you consider as "relative harmony"? Under Islamic rulership, if you were not Muslim, you lived as a second class citizen. As long as nothing upset the status quo, everything was tranquil.

And under Zionist rule, you only *wish* you were a 2nd class citizen.

Don't you think they should be separated??

It goes back to before 1948. But back then it was still the same as it is today. The Christians/Jews have done nothing. It's the presence of Christians/Jews as equals that make the Palestinian freekin' sick. The Muslim has to be the dominate entity and if not, they will throw a hissy-fit and act like a spoiled brat.

I would excuse the Sephardi Jews but never the Christians.

word - CRUSADES

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

No, the rocket attacks by Palestinian militants into Israel's civilian suburbs are acts of terrorism by any definition of the word. They are not "cries for help", nor are they "anti-terrorism" - whatever that may mean.

However, terrorism does not appear in a vacuum - it is a reaction to actual or perceived oppression by a more powerful adversary.

In that case, are the bombs Israel has dropped on Iraq Syria Hezbollah Egypt Lebanon Jordan et all, acts of terrorism?

yup

[Phaeton80]

The question is....where do we stand with International law today? The Nuremberg trials set a precedent whereby Nazis were put to death as a result of Crimes Against Humanity. I find it ironic that many Jews, who were persecuted by the Nazis, somehow now see themselves as being exempt from the very laws they used to put the Nazis to death. Now, the very powers that created these laws seem to think that they no longer apply to them, as if they were a 'gentleman's agreement' that could be reneged. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The so-called 'International Community' needs to live up to their words.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Phaeton80

[RoofGardener]

Hmmm..... I'm struggling a bit with that correlation, Phaeton80.

"The Jews" didn't host the Nurenburg Trials, nor where they "one of the powers that created these laws".

That was America, Britain, and Russia. At the time, neither of these powers had a recent history of being particularly sympathetic to the Jews.

As for the "International Community" living up to their words.... well.. firstly, WHICH international community ? Secondly, that sounds a bit like Intervention, which some might then class as "Western Imperialism".

Edited July 29, 2014 by RoofGardener

[Phaeton80]

Hmmm..... I'm struggling a bit with that correlation, Phaeton80.

"The Jews" didn't host the Nurenburg Trials, nor where they "one of the powers that created these laws".

That was America, Britain, and Russia. At the time, neither of these powers had a recent history of being particularly sympathetic to the Jews.

As for the "International Community" living up to their words.... well.. firstly, WHICH international community ? Secondly, that sounds a bit like Intervention, which some might then class as "Western Imperialism".

Are you? Im struggeling with the fact some fanatics continue to blindly defend the mass murder of a civilian population.

Your skills in evading the obvious point of irony, as well as the obvious crimes perpetrated by the Zionist Israeli State, are 'impressive'.

The 'Jews' are still the timeless helpless victims, the world is still out to get all of them gassed, Israel is only defending its citizens, and the Muslims want to conquer the world with their evil religion.

Whatever. The time that The People fall for this tiresome 'victim role invoking' nonsense, is over. Ive ran clean out of sympathy, and there are many - many others like me.

[..] Indicative of the largely political nature of the Nuremberg process was the important Jewish role in organizing these trials. Nahum Goldmann, one-time president of both the World Jewish Congress and the World Zionist Organization, reported in his memoir that the Nuremberg Tribunal was the brain-child of World Jewish Congress officials. Only after persistent effort were WJC officials able to persuade Allied leaders to accept the idea, he added.

The World Jewish Congress also played an important but less obvious role in the day to day proceedings. Above all, the powerful but secretive organization made sure that Germany's persecution of the Jews was a primary focus of the trials, and that the defendants were punished for their involvement in that process. /9

Two Jewish officers in the US Army -- Lieutenant Colonel Murray Bernays and Colonel David "Mickey" Marcus -- played key roles in the Nuremberg enterprise. In the words of historian Robert Conot, Bernays was "the guiding spirit leading the way to Nuremberg." Bernays, a successful New York attorney, persuaded US War Secretary Henry Stimson and others to accept the idea of putting the defeated German leaders on trial. /10

Marcus, a fervent Zionist, became the "number three man in making American policy" in occupied Germany. As chief of the US government's War Crimes Branch in 1946 and 1947, he selected almost all of the judges, prosecutors and lawyers for the Nuremberg NMT Trials. (He later became a commander of Zionist "Haganah" military forces in Palestine.) /11

Some of the Americans who participated in the Nuremberg trials became disillusioned with the entire business. One of the few to make public his feelings was Charles F. Wennerstrum, an Iowa Supreme Court justice who served as presiding judge in the Nuremberg trial of German generals. "If I had known seven months ago what I know today, I would never have come here," he declared immediately after sentences were pronounced. "The high ideals announced as the motives for creating these tribunals have not been evident," he added. /12

Wennerstrum cautiously referred to the extensive Jewish involvement in the Nuremberg process. "The entire atmosphere here is unwholesome ... Lawyers, clerks, interpreters and researchers were employed who became Americans only in recent years, whose backgrounds were imbedded in Europe's hatreds and prejudices." He criticized the one-sided handling of evidence. "Most of the evidence in the trials was documentary, selected from the large tonnage of captured records. The selection was made by the prosecution. The defense had access only to those documents which the prosecution considered material to the case." He concluded that "the trials were to have convinced the Germans of the guilt of their leaders. They convinced the Germans merely that their leaders lost the war to tough conquerors." Wennerstrum left Nuremberg "with a feeling that justice has been denied."

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html

I hope you are enjoying this game of enthousiastically circumventing the blood drenched elephant in the room, making somewhat of a perverted sport out of ignoring the goings on.. And the sick irony that is at play.

But you know what, I really think Israel has acted without thinking it through this time. I think 'they have crossed a line' (member Bibi?), this will usher in the end of these Zionist criminals.

What goes around comes around. Sometimes it just takes a while.

[Yamato]

The launching of rockets into civilian neighbourhoods is terrorism, not simply "fighting against oppression". Both Hamas and the Israeli govt/military engage in terrorism, which is the deliberate targetting of civilians for the purpose of imposing an ideology through terror.

There you go again with those "civilian neighborhoods". I don't know where you're getting your information from. A rocket fell through a roof of someone's house seven days ago? Is that what you're talking about? So now I'm supposed to believe that they're launching thousands of rockets, and we have what? One house hit? Does that sound like they're "launching rockets into civilian neighborhoods" to you? Nonsense. The whole narrative is BS Leonardo. I don't believe anything I hear about this conflict on my boob tube and neither should you.

[Yamato]

In that case, are the bombs Israel has dropped on Iraq Syria Hezbollah Egypt Lebanon Jordan et all, acts of terrorism?

yup

Exactly. But he runs back to cover his neck to admit that well, the Israeli government is terrorist too, not really noticing yet that NOBODY in the US media or the USGOV has ever said that, ever. It's like an afterthought for these people parroting the propaganda. "Well now that you mention it...."

[RavenHawk]

Oh, sure. Stealing land in an act of war is not against UN rule?

The UN was not around when the Palestinian stole the land.

Religious cleansing is NOT against UN and international law?

Then where are the armies marching on ISIS for ethnic cleansing of the Christians? I guess it’s ok to do it to Christians. Or is it typical Muslim treatment of non-Muslim groups and so the UN just looks the other way. Personally, as long as you give the people the choice, this is acceptable. It is the history of mankind. Without it, you wouldn’t be who you are, unless you can’t stand yourself.

Keeping people with title to a home in Palestine from going back to their home is not a crime???

If these people had legal title to the land, that would be something different. They don’t. I don’t think Israel had an issue with them squatting in the first place but they couldn’t leave their hatred of Jews/Israel in the past. That’s the key. Israel knows their track record and their propensity for violence and will treat them appropriately. They have to prove themselves.

Ignoring important UN resolutions that try to let the Pals back home is not a crime?

What UN resolutions are in place to allow the Jordanian Palestinian to return? If Israel was not there, none of the neighbors would allow a return. The Palestinian is an undesirable population even by brother Arabs. A UN resolution without teeth is just a piece of paper. And no nation is going enforce such resolutions because it might be their nation next time trying to defend themselves and will want every option available to them.

You were the one that said in here that about half the people in Palestine back in the 1920's were either Christian or Sephardi Jew - is that correct??

That is incorrect. Is it possible that what I said could have been misconstrued?? So I can only conclude that you are inaccurate. And that you are putting words in my mouth would be indication of pro-Palestinian bias. Which doesn’t surprise me.

If so, how come only Muslims got pushed off the land and into refugee camps in foreign lands??

Because they were told to leave. Many did and know they want to return? They were all sure that the Arab armies were going to destroy Israel. How come they didn’t try to join in and fight for the land, if it was truly theirs?

Either you're not too swift or you are in heavy denial.

Well, I’m pretty sure it is neither and so far you’re showing a lack of swiftness. You’re putting words into other people’s mouths. You’re not aware of both sides of the story here. All you see is the Palestinian is being kicked off of their land by the evil Jews. And that is the furthest from the truth. You’re a typical American that has been shielded from the realities in this world.

Apparently you are only talking about Israel's latest incursion. there's been so many

Whether it is or not, it’s the Palestinian that is cutting their own throat and using Israel to do it. And it is clear that it is their hatred of Israel that is behind it. For centuries the Jew has been mistreated by the local Arab peoples, euphemistically called Dhimmitude or institutionalized ethnic cleansing. Some people here only seem to be bothered by that if Israel is doing it. And that is hypocritical and dishonest. Today the Palestinian is just paying the price of that arrogance. I am a firm believer in karma and to borrow a phrase, the Palestinian chickens have come home to roost.

And under Zionist rule, you only *wish* you were a 2nd class citizen.

Turn around is fair play. No doubt that oppression is occurring with non-Jewish Israeli citizens, but this is a different issue than with Gaza. It is somewhat understandable. And it probably won’t get much better until the issue is settled with Gaza and WB. If this still occurs after that, then those people need to participate in non-violent civil disobedience until the government recognizes the wishes of all its citizens. Here, I’m sure that the world would aid in that endeavor. I would think that it would only be a changing of gears for the government because it had been so entrenched in defending its existence, but now it would have a new and different perspective.

Don't you think they should be separated??

The two-state solution is out. If you go by the ’47 plan you have two separate nations split into effectively 3 non-contiguous strips of land that can’t be defended. If you go with the ’67 borders, then you have one side with a divided homeland and that never works out. The only solution is a one-state solution. The only way it will work is if the Palestinian terminates Hamas and become fiercely loyal Israelis. With their mindset, that’s easier said than done.

I would excuse the Sephardi Jews but never the Christians.

word - CRUSADES

And that is why you believe what you believe. You take this out of historical context. All you know is that the evil Christians attacked the poor innocent Muslims for no good reason. Do you know that the Muslims invaded Christian territory too? It’s been back-and-forth ever since the rise of Islam. And it continues today.

[Yamato]

"I (STILL) don't see one link on this thread providing one shred of evidence for the disgusting jew-hate BS you Zionist liars keep accusing me of." - Yamato

Anything yet, RavenHawk?

[RavenHawk]

But you know what, I really think Israel has acted without thinking it through this time. I think 'they have crossed a line' (member Bibi?), this will usher in the end of these Zionist criminals.

Boy! You really hate Israel/Jews. As they have always done, they have painstakingly thought it out. They can only be tolerant for so long.

What goes around comes around. Sometimes it just takes a while.

That’s very correct and the Palestinian is about to have their karma come visit them. Playing the victim card is no longer going to work. The world knows that this will never stop until Israel puts an end to it. And the sooner the better.

[RavenHawk]

"I (STILL) don't see one link on this thread providing one shred of evidence for the disgusting jew-hate BS you Zionist liars keep accusing me of." - Yamato

Anything yet, RavenHawk?

I just wait for your next post. You never disappoint.