Message from Dr Norman G. Finkelstein

[bee]

And Israeli's aren't. You really are naive Bee.

Every single citizen (apart from the ultra orthadox) of Israel is conscripted into the IDF for four years of indoctrination.

Br Cornelius

every single citizen of any nation in the world is subjected to a degree of indoctrination....

through education, media etc etc.....it's all to do with the DEGREE and the purpose...

Show me something coming from Israel that is anywhere near comparable to the stuff

churned out by Hamas and other hard-line Islamic groups...

when I see your posts and your user-name...this is the image that comes to my mind...

[Guest]

every single citizen of any nation in the world is subjected to a degree of indoctrination....

through education, media etc etc.....it's all to do with the DEGREE and the purpose...

Show me something coming from Israel that is anywhere near comparable to the stuff

churned out by Hamas and other hard-line Islamic groups...

when I see your posts and your user-name...this is the image that comes to my mind...

Thats a coincidence because I was think exactly the same Bee.

Seem the indoctrination worked on you, was it in Church you got yours ?

Br Cornelius

[bee]

Thats a coincidence because I was think exactly the same Bee.

Seem the indoctrination worked on you, was it in Church you got yours ?

Br Cornelius

very funny....

just goes to show how unobservant you are that you should ask me that about the Church...

when have I ever made a post suggesting I went to church or that I was religious.....?

For your information....I come from a totally non-religious working class family...

I have always been very grateful that my family didn't indoctrinate me into any religion

as I believe this makes it easier to work 'stuff' out...

.

[RoofGardener]

And Israeli's aren't. You really are naive Bee.

Every single citizen (apart from the ultra orthadox) of Israel is conscripted into the IDF for four years of indoctrination.

Br Cornelius

Actually, it's THREE years of indoctrination, Br.

And TWO years for women.

(Are Israeli women more susceptible to indoctrination ? )

Perhaps we should ask one ?

Hmmm... on second thoughts... perhaps not...

Edited July 22, 2014 by RoofGardener

[Yamato]

So therefore, after whatever all that just was, we all conclude that indoctrination is no reason to pick sides, either.

[bee]

So therefore, after whatever all that just was, we all conclude that indoctrination is no reason to pick sides, either.

oh we all do...do we....?....please don't think you are some sort of spokesman for us all....

this is what I said to another Hamas apologist...

every single citizen of any nation in the world is subjected to a degree of indoctrination....

through education, media etc etc.....it's all to do with the DEGREE and the purpose...

Show me something coming from Israel that is anywhere near comparable to the stuff

churned out by Hamas and other hard-line Islamic groups...

Can YOU Yamato show me something coming from modern Israel anywhere near comparable to the stuff

churned out by Hamas et al...?

Good luck with that....

.

[Yamato]

oh we all do...do we....?....please don't think you are some sort of spokesman for us all....

this is what I said to another Hamas apologist...

Can YOU Yamato show me something coming from modern Israel anywhere near comparable to the stuff

churned out by Hamas et al...?

Good luck with that....

.

It's rhetoric. I don't care. You can't talk about me and rhetoric in the same reply because I don't have anything to do with what either nutjob on either side of this conflict has to say about it.

[+and-then]

It's rhetoric. I don't care. You can't talk about me and rhetoric in the same reply because I don't have anything to do with what either nutjob on either side of this conflict has to say about it.

Convenient eh?

[bee]

Convenient eh?

yes isn't it...

he knows he can't....so pulls the usual BS out of his bag of tricks

.

[Yamato]

Convenient eh?

It's convenient to pay attention to rhetoric and emotions so to excuse our actions, yes.

[Leonardo]

Can YOU Yamato show me something coming from modern Israel anywhere near comparable to the stuff

churned out by Hamas et al...?

Good luck with that....

Well, Israel bombed a hospital in Gaza. That would seem to me to be comparable to anything Hamas does.

If you are referring to the speeches made by people on either side, who cares about speeches? It's actions that matter. A person can be the most hateful in the world, but if they do not act on that hate then they are less "evil" than someone who does act on their pettier 'hates'.

[Yamato]

Well, Israel bombed a hospital in Gaza. That would seem to me to be comparable to anything Hamas does.

If you are referring to the speeches made by people on either side, who cares about speeches? It's actions that matter. A person can be the most hateful in the world, but if they do not act on that hate then they are less "evil" than someone who does act on their pettier 'hates'.

When she referred to "Anything churned out of Hamas" she was referring to words. She doesn't compare actions. Israel destroying hospitals with its accurate and discriminate weapons are not her concern.

[+and-then]

Well, Israel bombed a hospital in Gaza. That would seem to me to be comparable to anything Hamas does.

If you are referring to the speeches made by people on either side, who cares about speeches? It's actions that matter. A person can be the most hateful in the world, but if they do not act on that hate then they are less "evil" than someone who does act on their pettier 'hates'.

ONE possibly errant tank shell compared to how many YEARS of indiscriminate rockets? Are you even trying to be serious in such a comparison? It wasn't a bomb and it did not destroy a hospital. Yes, it was deadly and yes it shouldn't have happened but it is ridiculous and even insincere comparison.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

It's convenient to pay attention to rhetoric and emotions so to excuse our actions, yes.

Do false-flag operations by the Israelis count?

That would be a tad more tawdry than wearing bombs on your waste.

I think that if the US gave Hamas all the jets, tanks, helos, weaponry that they give to Israel, Hamas would use them to fight instead of a belting themselves with bombs

war ain't a bleeping fashion show

Edited July 22, 2014 by Earl.Of.Trumps

[RoofGardener]

Do false-flag operations by the Israelis count?

That would be a tad more tawdry than wearing bombs on your waste.

I think that if the US gave Hamas all the jets, tanks, helos, weaponry that they give to Israel, Hamas would use them to fight instead of a belting themselves with bombs

war ain't a bleeping fashion show

Meh..... wouldn't work. You'd just end up with a huge pile of crashed/broken jets, tanks and helo's. The average HAMAS operative's technical skills are limited to reciting the Koran in ancient Arabic.

[Yamato]

ONE possibly errant tank shell compared to how many YEARS of indiscriminate rockets? Are you even trying to be serious in such a comparison? It wasn't a bomb and it did not destroy a hospital. Yes, it was deadly and yes it shouldn't have happened but it is ridiculous and even insincere comparison.

If Israel is oppressing you, shooting a rocket at Israel that's not going to hit anything or anyone anyway is still hitting the target. It's a political weapon, barely psychological, and a joke of a military weapon. If "Hamas" was aiming rifles at IDF soldiers on the border on a regular basis, that would be ruled "terrorism" too. An Israeli soldier gunned down in cold blood. And then we'd get the photograph and the family interview and the well wishers sending their cards. One IDF soldier gets captured on Monday and that's the headline on BBC and the entire focus of the US MSM. The bloodiest day for Palestinians since this invasion began and not even a word is mentioned. I have to watch BBC to even know that Gazans died at all so at least the BBC International can report that. It's pretty ridiculous when I have to buy another hundred channels on my TV just to get the news.

[RoofGardener]

It's convenient to pay attention to rhetoric and emotions so to excuse our actions, yes.

That IS a bit of a conundrum. However, I'm not convinced that there is direct equivalence between the two.

I'd agree that indoctrination is indoctrination. However, I would suggest that HAMAS tend to ACT directly on that indoctrination, whereas the IDF are a structured military force that acts on orders from higher up, not directly on their indoctrination.

It is a subtle point but - I think - an important one in practice.

[Yamato]

Meh..... wouldn't work. You'd just end up with a huge pile of crashed/broken jets, tanks and helo's. The average HAMAS operative's technical skills are limited to reciting the Koran in ancient Arabic.

Imagine how butt scared Israeli bureaucrats would be if the average Hamas operative's technical skills were less limited than reciting the Koran in ancient Arabic.

[Space Commander Travis]

Meh..... wouldn't work. You'd just end up with a huge pile of crashed/broken jets, tanks and helo's. The average HAMAS operative's technical skills are limited to reciting the Koran in ancient Arabic.

Then you might wonder whether they are in fact such a threat to Israel as they're made out to be. The ratio of Palestinian to Israeli casualties might suggest that they're not such a fearsomely ruthlessly efficient fighting force as some like to make them out to be.

[Leonardo]

ONE possibly errant tank shell compared to how many YEARS of indiscriminate rockets? Are you even trying to be serious in such a comparison? It wasn't a bomb and it did not destroy a hospital. Yes, it was deadly and yes it shouldn't have happened but it is ridiculous and even insincere comparison.

I don't care whether it was a bomb or a shell, all I care about was the effect - which was deplorable. My point stands - Israel has committed acts which are as deplorable as those committed by Hamas. Neither side are worthy of being granted my sympathies in this ridiculous and tragic fight over worthless ideologies.

[bee]

I don't care whether it was a bomb or a shell, all I care about was the effect - which was deplorable. My point stands - Israel has committed acts which are as deplorable as those committed by Hamas. Neither side are worthy of being granted my sympathies in this ridiculous and tragic fight over worthless ideologies.

It is a fight over land and survival...can't you even get THAT right....

And do you actually understand the difference between attack and defence..?

Or what human shield means in a military situation...?

And that Israel is trying to minimise civilian deaths...but Hamas is seeking to maximise them...?

Fence sitters....sheesh...they are more annoying than people who have the guts to pick a side...

What use to anyone is a fence sitter when the stakes are so high...

High for the whole world and not just Israel / Palestine....

.

[Leonardo]

It is a fight over land and survival...can't you even get THAT right....

And do you actually understand the difference between attack and defence..?

Or what human shield means in a military situation...?

And that Israel is trying to minimise civilian deaths...but Hamas is seeking to maximise them...?

Fence sitters....sheesh...they are more annoying than people who have the guts to pick a side...

What use to anyone is a fence sitter when the stakes are so high...

High for the whole world and not just Israel / Palestine....

.

The reasons for the conflict have become complicated since it started, but it is still essentially a fight between ideologies. Both of which promote the land being fought over as somehow 'holy and essential' to the identity of the culture. It is not, culture is an abstract. It exists entirely within the mind, and is not contingent on holding a piece of dirt in your hand. Neither the Israelis/Jews nor the Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims need to occupy Jerusalem to be Israelis/Jews or Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims.

And so, the conflict is both ridiculous and tragic.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Leonardo

[Yamato]

How is oppression itself not conflict? Israel's policy is conflict.

[RoofGardener]

How is oppression itself not conflict? Israel's policy is conflict.

Israel's policy is to survive as a Nation, against a backdrop of nations and groups that seek its destruction.

When you resist an attacker, the result is conflict, by definition. But the alternative is the 'peace' of the grave.

Conflict - in and of itself - is morally neutral. It is the context that means everything.

[Guest]

Israel's policy is to survive as a Nation, against a backdrop of nations and groups that seek its destruction.

When you resist an attacker, the result is conflict, by definition. But the alternative is the 'peace' of the grave.

Conflict - in and of itself - is morally neutral. It is the context that means everything.

So the context is the occupation - a morally bankrupt position in of itself since there is no sign that Israel has any intention to withdraw until they own the whole of the West Bank with their "facts on the ground".

Br Cornelius