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Br Cornelius

Message from Dr Norman G. Finkelstein

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Space Commander Travis

You should read your history a little better and put the fiction down (Bible). Rhetoric is rhetoric.

But not when it's Muslims saying it. Then, as we've seen before, they can be taken absolutely to mean what they say, perhaps the only leaders of any nation or people in history to do so.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Thanks for posting this. Right or wrong on my part, I have LOATHED this man since I first heard him speak. His friend and mentor Chomsky is even worse. I am disgusted by their treatment of the Palestinian issue but in Chomsky's case I actually feel he is a traitor to his nation. He NEVER has agreed with anything the US stands for. Yet he enjoys the fruits of his citizenship here. Finklestein's unemployability just shows the Left's lack of character and loyalty. I hope the man goes to Turkey - he should have a slobbering love affair with the anti semites there.

Really...? I am shocked, AT.

You don't loathe me just because I am anti-Zionist, do you? :innocent: hmmmm.....

Could it be your excess angst for Finkelstein has to do with him being a Jew? Uh, oh!

I guess that would make you an anti-Semite, eh? Have a nice one! :clap:

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and then

Really...? I am shocked, AT.

You don't loathe me just because I am anti-Zionist, do you? :innocent: hmmmm.....

Could it be your excess angst for Finkelstein has to do with him being a Jew? Uh, oh!

I guess that would make you an anti-Semite, eh? Have a nice one! :clap:

Loathe? Nah, actually I think of you more as a feeble minded provocateur ;). And yeah, I think part of the reason for the extra anger against him is that he actually had parents in a camp and he still decides to have personal political impulses outweigh a need to keep his own blood safe. He is basically a hateful nerd.
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Earl.Of.Trumps

The Palestinian Authority - along with the entire Islamic world - rejects the UN Human Rights charter outright. they formally refuse to ratify it.

That's nice. Now why don't you tell us *why* they reject it.

While you are at it, please tell us why Israel refuse to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

WYAAI 2, tell us why Israel has flat out rejected making the ME a nuclear free zone?

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Was it ethically/morally wrong to create the State of Israel in the first place ?

Because it was that declaration that launched seven Arab armies into the former Palestinian Mandate, with the stated objective of destroying Israel.

Was it ethically/morally wrong for Israel to resist those armies ?

Because everything else has flowed from that.

My objection is that we are asking Israel to abide by one set of rules, but then NOT applying those rules to the Palestinians, the PLO, HAMAS, et al.

Tell me good Gardener,

How would the people of England respond if the Arab League of Nations carved England in two, so as to establish a homeland for the wandering Kurds?

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins" - old American Indian saying

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Earl.Of.Trumps

This thread highlights well why the subject topic constantly hits the buffers..

The video in the OP criticises what it see's as crocodile tears about the holocaust when justifying the actions of the hierachy in Isreal, yet uses the long list of Palestinian hardships to criticise that action. I'm not surprised that irony is skipped over since it highlights the problem with both sides have in accepting responsibility for the mess over there. As with the Good Friday agreement, no peace is worth the paper it is written on until all factions want peace.

That might have to do with the fact that what happened to the Jews in WWII had *nothing* to do with Muslims.

Yet what is happening TO Muslims now, is because of the Zionists in Israel and about.

Why try to use WWII treatment to Jews as a wedge? But they do! Yet the two have nothing to do with eachother.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Loathe? Nah, actually I think of you more as a feeble minded provocateur ;). And yeah, I think part of the reason for the extra anger against him is that he actually had parents in a camp and he still decides to have personal political impulses outweigh a need to keep his own blood safe. He is basically a hateful nerd.

2 + 2 = 4 whether he had family that was destroyed in Auschwitz or not

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bee

Do you support the IDF in killing those four boys ?

The killing of those boys was accidental....

If Hamas hadn't been firing all those rockets those boys would be alive today...

This is the madness you are giving support to.....

Hamas in their own words - Children are taught to value violence, hatred, and Islamic supremacy

.

Edited by bee

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TSS

That might have to do with the fact that what happened to the Jews in WWII had *nothing* to do with Muslims.

Yet what is happening TO Muslims now, is because of the Zionists in Israel and about.

Why try to use WWII treatment to Jews as a wedge? But they do! Yet the two have nothing to do with eachother.

Only that isn't what he said, or implied. He said that crocodile tears over the holocaust does not justify the actions Israel takes against the Palestinians.....that same argument is being used on here by people who are using the same tears over the Palestinians to criticise the Israeli stance. To ignore the psychology behind why any given side takes the stance it does is fine, but pulling on the heart strings carries no weight either then....and then you're back to square one. Both sides are lying and refusing to give ground on the issues at hand, and the blame game for any given situation are long past being important. The Good Friday agreement is a great example of how hundreds of yrs of bitter hatred and resentment can still lead to a solution of sorts....but it only happens when everyone realises that no one can win, instead it's negotiating to a point where no one loses either though. Neither side are ready for that, maybe they ever will be..

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Leonardo

Bee you have hit it on the head - this is nothing to do with religion.

Great of you to finally spot it :tu:

Zionism is a secular movement and Israel is a secular state. There are more Christian Zionists than Jewish Zionists. Anti-Semitism seems an unusual phrase to bandy around in the light of this.

The great lie is that this whole conflict is something more than it actually is - one nation waging war on an occupied nation and breaking just about every law in the international book.

Br Cornelius

As the basis of Zionism is that the homeland of the Jews is the Levantine area allegedly promised to the ancient Israelites as recorded in the Hebrew religious scriptures, then the claim that Zionism is a totally secular movement is difficult to justify.

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and then

As the basis of Zionism is that the homeland of the Jews is the Levantine area allegedly promised to the ancient Israelites as recorded in the Hebrew religious scriptures, then the claim that Zionism is a totally secular movement is difficult to justify.

The PROMISE the movement is based on is from God according to scripture respected by over a billion human beings. The actual day to day governance and decision making for those who are there in the land is a separate issue for most of them. AFAIK the religious in the society are far from being a majority.

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RoofGardener

Bee you have hit it on the head - this is nothing to do with religion.

Great of you to finally spot it :tu:

Zionism is a secular movement and Israel is a secular state. There are more Christian Zionists than Jewish Zionists. Anti-Semitism seems an unusual phrase to bandy around in the light of this.

The great lie is that this whole conflict is something more than it actually is - one nation waging war on an occupied nation and breaking just about every law in the international book.

Br Cornelius

Yeeees... ummm.. you're kinda muddling two things up there though, aren't you ?

Actually, perhaps that is down to the term 'antisemitism' itself, which is a somewhat misunderstood word.

Here's what Wikipedia says:

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews as a national, ethnic, religious or racial group.[1] A person who holds such positions is called an "antisemite". As Jews are an ethnoreligious group, antisemitism is generally considered a form of racism.

While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic people, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"),[2] and that has been its normal use since then.[3] For the purposes of a 2005 U.S. governmental report, antisemitism was considered "hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity."[4]

In this light, the term anti-Semitism can be used for an hatred of Israeli citizens, regardless of ethnicity or religion. It can also be used do describe a hatred for non-Israeli Jews (in the religious sense), or non-religious non-Israeli people with Semitic ethnicity. Boy, do we get value for money from the term.

But not when it's Muslims saying it. Then, as we've seen before, they can be taken absolutely to mean what they say, perhaps the only leaders of any nation or people in history to do so.

Dammit Admiral, show a little more consideration. I spent AGES building this Sarcasmometer. I fire it up, point it at your post (the FIRST post its ever been tried on), and straight away you overload it and make it explode.

That's nice. Now why don't you tell us *why* they reject it.

Presumably because they couldn't honour

  1. The commitment to women's rights
  2. The commitment to freedom of religious worship
  3. The commitment to equal treatment under the law to people of different religious beliefs.
  4. the commitment to equal treatment under the law to minorities (clashes with the concept of 'Dhimmi')
  5. the commitment to equal treatment under the law to homosexuals, transgenders and the like.
  6. The commitment to elected, representative government with universal suffrage.

You know.. minor stuff like that ? Dunno what all the fuss is about really.

While you are at it, please tell us why Israel refuse to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

I honestly don't know. Why don't Pakistan or India ?

WYAAI 2, tell us why Israel has flat out rejected making the ME a nuclear free zone?

Oh PLEASE. That was just an Arab proposal, made purely because they knew they would never have a hope of developing their OWN nukes, and they wanted some way of dis-arming the Israeli nukes. Israel is unlikely to spontanously introduce such a concept, as they still remember the two (three ?) Arab invasions in the 70 years since their nation was created, and they want to keep their deterrence until they are confident that they are safe.

Looking at the current state of Syria, Iran, Egypt and Iraq, I can't say that I blame them.

Tell me good Gardener,

How would the people of England respond if the Arab League of Nations carved England in two, so as to establish a homeland for the wandering Kurds?

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins" - old American Indian saying

Oh, thats EASY.

"Realpolitik"

We would have a HUGE laugh watching the Arab League armies attempting to impose such a change on us.

"Oh NOOOO... the Arab Navy is approaching our shores.... quick... new underpants.. I have wet these ones laughing... "

Also... we would use sneaky bribery. We would try and undermine the Arab initiative by offering large grants to the Traditional British Kurdish community to emigrate. All Kurds listed in the 1920's census (and their offspring) would be eligible to £100,000 cash, and a one-way ticket to Kurdistan. No historic community... no justification for creating a homeland. Job done ! PLUS, it would be cheap. It should cost the treasury all of £0.00

Anyway, WHAT "wandering Kurds" ? ARE the Kurds wandering ? Why aren't they sitting down ? Can't they afford furniture, or do they all have haemorrhoids ?

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Br Cornelius
In this light, the term anti-Semitism can be used for an hatred of Israeli citizens, regardless of ethnicity or religion. It can also be used do describe a hatred for non-Israeli Jews (in the religious sense), or non-religious non-Israeli people with Semitic ethnicity. Boy, do we get value for money from the term.

Thats a very perverse and particular interpretation to rope in Zionism. that therefore makes all those ultra-orthadox Jews who are anti-zionists anti-semitic as well. i think you got something wrong there.

I wouldn't expect anything less of your twisted logic though.

Br Cornelius

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Only that isn't what he said, or implied. He said that crocodile tears over the holocaust does not justify the actions Israel takes against the Palestinians.....

Very similar sentiment, Sky Scanner, and I happen to agree with his statement, what happened to Jews in WWII should never be an excuse to allow Israels bad behavior.

that same argument is being used on here by people who are using the same tears over the Palestinians to criticise the Israeli stance.

Two wrongs do not make a RIGHT. It will go back and forth forever until either Israel is toppled or the UN smartens the hell up and intervenes.

To ignore the psychology behind why any given side takes the stance it does is fine, but pulling on the heart strings carries no weight either then....and then you're back to square one. Both sides are lying and refusing to give ground on the issues at hand, and the blame game for any given situation are long past being important. The Good Friday agreement is a great example of how hundreds of yrs of bitter hatred and resentment can still lead to a solution of sorts....but it only happens when everyone realises that no one can win, instead it's negotiating to a point where no one loses either though. Neither side are ready for that, maybe they ever will be..

I agree with everything you said there, agreements, intervention, otherwise we just end up in an infinite loop of "rinse and repeat"

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Earl.Of.Trumps

As the basis of Zionism is that the homeland of the Jews is the Levantine area allegedly promised to the ancient Israelites as recorded in the Hebrew religious scriptures, then the claim that Zionism is a totally secular movement is difficult to justify.

Agreed, and it is particularly vexing to think that Jews from EUROPE who have no lineage from the Levant think *they* are the chosen ones and can go into Palestine, evict the Muslims off the land so they can have their moozie-free state!

They're not religious fanatics....? Good GRIEF!

As they think right now, American actress, Whoopie Goldburg, can go over to Israel and become a "settler" on some poor Palestinian's land but the Pal who owns it has to take a hike.

That makes sense? :unsure2:

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Yeeees... ummm.. you're kinda muddling two things up there though, aren't you ?

Actually, perhaps that is down to the term 'antisemitism' itself, which is a somewhat misunderstood word.

Here's what Wikipedia says:

In this light, the term anti-Semitism can be used for an hatred of Israeli citizens, regardless of ethnicity or religion. It can also be used do describe a hatred for non-Israeli Jews (in the religious sense), or non-religious non-Israeli people with Semitic ethnicity. Boy, do we get value for money from the term.

Dammit Admiral, show a little more consideration. I spent AGES building this Sarcasmometer. I fire it up, point it at your post (the FIRST post its ever been tried on), and straight away you overload it and make it explode.

Presumably because they couldn't honour

  1. The commitment to women's rights
  2. The commitment to freedom of religious worship
  3. The commitment to equal treatment under the law to people of different religious beliefs.
  4. the commitment to equal treatment under the law to minorities (clashes with the concept of 'Dhimmi')
  5. the commitment to equal treatment under the law to homosexuals, transgenders and the like.
  6. The commitment to elected, representative government with universal suffrage.

You know.. minor stuff like that ? Dunno what all the fuss is about really.

I honestly don't know. Why don't Pakistan or India ?

Oh PLEASE. That was just an Arab proposal, made purely because they knew they would never have a hope of developing their OWN nukes, and they wanted some way of dis-arming the Israeli nukes. Israel is unlikely to spontanously introduce such a concept, as they still remember the two (three ?) Arab invasions in the 70 years since their nation was created, and they want to keep their deterrence until they are confident that they are safe.

Looking at the current state of Syria, Iran, Egypt and Iraq, I can't say that I blame them.

Oh, thats EASY.

"Realpolitik"

We would have a HUGE laugh watching the Arab League armies attempting to impose such a change on us.

"Oh NOOOO... the Arab Navy is approaching our shores.... quick... new underpants.. I have wet these ones laughing... "

Also... we would use sneaky bribery. We would try and undermine the Arab initiative by offering large grants to the Traditional British Kurdish community to emigrate. All Kurds listed in the 1920's census (and their offspring) would be eligible to £100,000 cash, and a one-way ticket to Kurdistan. No historic community... no justification for creating a homeland. Job done ! PLUS, it would be cheap. It should cost the treasury all of £0.00

Anyway, WHAT "wandering Kurds" ? ARE the Kurds wandering ? Why aren't they sitting down ? Can't they afford furniture, or do they all have haemorrhoids ?

Pssssst, you never addressed the issue, Gardener.

Nice sarcasm, though

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Thats a very perverse and particular interpretation to rope in Zionism. that therefore makes all those ultra-orthadox Jews who are anti-zionists anti-semitic as well. i think you got something wrong there.

I wouldn't expect anything less of your twisted logic though.

Br Cornelius

Cornelius, Gardner, - Jews from Europe, Ashkenazi Jews, are not semitic.

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and then

I support the Palestinians. Do you support the IDF in killing those four boys ?

Playing the moral high ground game again. Its a loser.

Br Cornelius

Just as a supporter of Israel is embroidered with a rhetoric of hate and a complicity in every less than savory act that the government may employ, so the supporter of the Palestinians must bear THEIR garbage, right? Surely you do not support every act of these "freedom fighters"?

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RoofGardener

Thats a very perverse and particular interpretation to rope in Zionism. that therefore makes all those ultra-orthadox Jews who are anti-zionists anti-semitic as well. i think you got something wrong there.

.....

Br Cornelius

Hmm... you may have a point. I used the Wikipedia definition of Antisemetism in good faith. However, I now note that both the Webster definition and the Oxford definition ommit the term "nation", which would invalidate the specific point I was making.

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RoofGardener

Cornelius, Gardner, - Jews from Europe, Ashkenazi Jews, are not semitic.

Precisely my point, EoT, precisely my point.

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RoofGardener

Pssssst, you never addressed the issue, Gardener.

Pssssst ... oh yes I did. I directly addressed all of your points. All except for the last point. It was a silly point, so I gave a silly answer.

Nice sarcasm, though

It WAS rather good, wasn't it ? :)

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Precisely my point, EoT, precisely my point.

What????? ohmygod post-124371-0-79221400-1406002328_thumb.

we agree :no:

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Br Cornelius

.

Hamas supporters are indoctrinated at a young age

And Israeli's aren't. You really are naive Bee.

Every single citizen (apart from the ultra orthadox) of Israel is conscripted into the IDF for four years of indoctrination.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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