Malaysian Aircraft shot down over Ukraine

[freetoroam]

How could they? By military plane they mean a transport plane, like an An-12 or Il-76, which would be indistinguishable to a civilian aircraft at that height, particularly to inexperienced or not properly trained operators.

Not sure about the indistinguishable bit, they obviously knew what they were doing and had already shot down otherr military planes, even at that height (we are not talking UFO's here) the Boeing Is a different shaped plane.

You could be right though, but its the facebook warnings which tell me they just did not care what it was, it was flying over a space which has already had planes taken down.....I ask again, how the heck could a passenger plane take that risk?

Edited July 18, 2014 by freetoroam

[Space Commander Travis]

'There's going to be hell to pay and there should be!': John McCain warns of 'incredible repercussions' if Russian forces or pro-Russian separatists downed MH17.

Thank you for your helpful contribution, silly old warmonger.

(McCain i mean, not you.)

Edited July 18, 2014 by Admiral Rhubarb

[freetoroam]

'There's going to be hell to pay and there should be!': John McCain warns of 'incredible repercussions' if Russian forces or pro-Russian separatists downed MH17.

Hell to pay = more innocent deaths, many many more.

Why can man not just agre on peace instead of revenge?...and the world leaders on ALL sides make sure those who did this get locked away for life.

Edited July 18, 2014 by freetoroam

[seeder]

'There's going to be hell to pay and there should be!': John McCain warns of 'incredible repercussions' if Russian forces or pro-Russian separatists downed MH17.

edit to add link (doh - well Ive just got up)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696668/Theres-going-hell-pay-John-McCain-warns-incredible-repercussions-Russian-forces-pro-Russian-separatists-downed-MH17.html

[toast]

edit to add link (doh - well Ive just got up)

http://www.dailymail...owned-MH17.html

I find it very alarming if even high range politicians like McCain act like a Rottweiler. For what reasons other than populism

is he giving a menace to Russia at a time the investigations are still ongoing and so the responsibles for the event are still

unknown.

Info: just saw on flightradar24 that no russian airlines/aircrafts are passing the Ukraine airspace but I don`t know if they did

before the event.

[Space Commander Travis]

Meanwhile,

• 'The Cure For AIDS Could Have Been On That Plane'
  

yes, yet again.

And

Passenger posts a chilling message before MH17 flight

Cor Pan posted this image that suggested he was about to board MH17 before it took off from The Netherlands. It says: "If it disappears, this is what it looks like'

Edited July 18, 2014 by Admiral Rhubarb

[MordorOrc]

I believe that last one was a hoax.

[stevewinn]

Is it true the Russians have recovered the black box and hot footed it over the border into Russia? surely it should have been handed over to Ukrainian authorities seeing the plane come down in their country.

[seeder]

A radar system saw a surface-to-air missile system turn on and track an aircraft right before the plane went down, the senior U.S. official said. A second system saw a heat signature at the time the airliner was hit, the official said. The United States is analyzing the trajectory of the missile to try to learn where the attack came from, the official said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[Duke Wellington]

Malaysia airliner crashes in Ukraine

A Malaysian airliner with 295 people on board has crashed in Ukraine near the border with Russia, on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, reports say.

Malaysia Airlines said it had lost contact with Flight MH17 from Amsterdam. The last known position was over Ukraine, it said in a tweet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-28354856

What fool would plot an air route over what is potentially a warzone?

[aztek]

ukranian media says they got information from CIA, that their (cia) satelite saw the missle to be fired from russia. not surew how reliable that info it. but if it is true, uncle vlad might have more problems than he needs right now.

[stevewinn]

What fool would plot an air route over what is potentially a warzone?

Loads of companies fly over Ukraine. the Air space wasn't declared closed and i guess they think flying at or above 25,000+ feet is safe, flights also continued over Iraq and Afghanistan. so its common. i see on flightradar24 there are still planes flying over Ukraine, most, but not all seem to be avoiding eastern Ukraine flying up the Russian border.

Edited July 18, 2014 by stevewinn

[toast]

Is it true the Russians have recovered the black box and hot footed it over the border into Russia? surely it should have

been handed over to Ukrainian authorities seeing the plane come down in their country.

Its a tricky situation as the Ukraine already blamed Russia to be responsible for the attack so I would say that Russia (if so)

captured the FR to avoid that its data gets lost by purpose or manipulated by the Ukraine authorities for the reason to back

the claim given. Of course, even Russia can manipulate the FR data to their benefit but I think it is more likely that the data

would get manipulated in the Ukraine than by Russia as Russia have a lot more to lose, from a global point of view, than the

Ukraine. But, its all speculation now.

[toast]

i see on flightradar24 there are still planes flying over Ukraine, most, but not all seem to be avoiding eastern Ukraine

flying up the Russian border.

The most of that flights are operated by Ukrainian A/L.

But I saw that ElAl flight 611/18 TLV-DME went straight ahead the Ukraine and thats strange to me.

http://www.flightrad.../ly611/#3d7e266

Edited July 18, 2014 by toast

[Mr.United_Nations]

The thing is, if this was a Ukrainian cargo plane that got hit and the rebels admitted it, then an hour later find out it was a passenger plane, where would Russia stand?

[freetoroam]

Loads of companies fly over Ukraine. the Air space wasn't declared closed and i guess they think flying at or above 25,000+ feet is safe, flights also continued over Iraq and Afghanistan. so its common. i see on flightradar24 there are still planes flying over Ukraine, most, but not all seem to be avoiding eastern Ukraine flying up the Russian border.

apparently there were warnings:

My question is WHY did they risk passengers lives by flying that way?

But at this point one question can be answered: Did aviation authorities know that this was a dangerous area?

Yes, they most certainly did. Nearly three months ago, on the "Special Rules" section of its site, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration put out an order prohibiting American pilots, airlines, charter carriers, and everyone else over whom the FAA has direct jurisdiction, from flying over southern parts of Ukraine.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/the-faas-notice-prohibiting-airline-flights-over-ukraine/374622/

[freetoroam]

The thing is, if this was a Ukrainian cargo plane that got hit and the rebels admitted it, then an hour later find out it was a passenger plane, where would Russia stand?

I think you mean what if they thought it was a Ukrainian cargo plane?

Up to now, this has not happened, but planes HAVE been shot down:

And within the past month, the separatists have brought down a number of Ukrainian military aircraft.

http://www.businessi...st-month-2014-7

Edited July 18, 2014 by freetoroam

[your_dark_passenger]

Sydney: An Australian family has been struck by both Malaysia Airlines tragedies, losing two members of their extended family in the MH17 crash four months after another couple went missing on MH370. http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/australian-family-hit-by-both-mh17-mh370-tragedies-560844?fb

[Rafterman]

Its a tricky situation as the Ukraine already blamed Russia to be responsible for the attack so I would say that Russia (if so)

captured the FR to avoid that its data gets lost by purpose or manipulated by the Ukraine authorities for the reason to back

the claim given. Of course, even Russia can manipulate the FR data to their benefit but I think it is more likely that the data

would get manipulated in the Ukraine than by Russia as Russia have a lot more to lose, from a global point of view, than the

Ukraine. But, its all speculation now.

I'm not really sure what there would be to manipulate. Perhaps the location of the plane might matter, but there would be other ways to determine that.

[toast]

My question is WHY did they risk passengers lives by flying that way?

But at this point one question can be answered: Did aviation authorities know that this was a dangerous area?

Yes, they most certainly did. Nearly three months ago, on the "Special Rules" section of its site, the U.S. Federal

Aviation Administration put out an order prohibiting American pilots, airlines, charter carriers, and everyone else

over whom the FAA has direct jurisdiction, from flying over southern parts of Ukraine.

I would say that the FAA was more strikt than other countries Aviation Administrations by giving an order. Other

agencies might have published just a recommendation to avoid the Uraine airspace but a recommendation is

just what it is, a recommendation. And that gives the airlines an open space for decisions that are at least for

50% related to economic aspects and not just only to the aspects of security.

[bmk1245]

I'm not really sure what there would be to manipulate. Perhaps the location of the plane might matter, but there would be other ways to determine that.

I have to agree here.

More important is crash site. Separatists were combing site since they arrived there. Who knows what damage for incoming investigation by professionals was already done...

[+susieice]

The black boxes. Although they say they already turned them over to Russia, they can't be altered in any way that's not detectable. Sooner or later, they have to turn them over to investigators.

[+and-then]

I would say that the FAA was more strikt than other countries Aviation Administrations by giving an order. Other

agencies might have published just a recommendation to avoid the Uraine airspace but a recommendation is

just what it is, a recommendation. And that gives the airlines an open space for decisions that are at least for

50% related to economic aspects and not just only to the aspects of security.

Helluva thing to die in an attempt to save a few hundred gallons of fuel.

[questionmark]

in related news:

U.S. Says Evidence Points to Pro-Russia Separatists in Destruction of Malaysian Plane

UNITED NATIONS — The United States on Friday ramped up its suspicions that pro-Russia separatists in eastern Ukraine felled a Malaysian jetliner, asserting there was “credible evidence” that a Russian-built antiaircraft system in a rebel-held location had fired the missle that destroyed it, killing all 298 people aboard and scattering the wreckage over miles of rolling farmland.

The accusations, made by Samantha Power, the United Nations ambassador, at an emergency Security Council meeting on the Ukraine conflict, were the first public remarks by a top American official pointing fingers directly at the separatists and their Russian associates for the destruction of the Malaysia Air Lines Boeing 777-200. The aircraft was at a cruising altitude of 33,000 feet in a commonly used air route over eastern Ukraine when it was struck on Thursday.

Both Russia and the separatist groups have denied any responsibility, and some rebel leaders have suggested Ukraine’s armed forces may have shot down the plane. President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia has implicitly blamed Ukraine’s government, saying it created the conditions for the separatist uprising that has escalated into a major crisis. But Mr. Putin has not denied that a Russian-made weapon may have destroyed the aircraft.

Read more

[Leonardo]

I suspect that the families of those lost in this tragic incident may have a case against Malaysian Airlines if they wish to pursue it. The first priority of any carrier is safety, not economy, and so Malaysian Airlines may well be negligent.

This is not to excuse whatever party fired a missile and destroyed the aircraft, if that is what is confirmed to have happened.