toast Posted July 17, 2014 #101 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) Do we know for sure it wasn't Ukrainians who did this? Or are we just assuming? The only thing we know for sure now is the fact that we know nothing. . Edited July 17, 2014 by toast 2 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted July 17, 2014 #102 Share Posted July 17, 2014 The only thing we know for sure now is the fact that we know nothing. . How convenient that would be. Comforting too. Maybe someone could stop Reuters this time Yep, sarcasm, just like OS's missile out of gas was sarcasm. Now you know, at least something. The rest is all over the news. 3 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted July 17, 2014 #103 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Maybe I'm wrong in this case, but when I think of "pro-Russian bandit-separatists" I think of guys with AKs, PKM, and RPGs riding around in the backs of pickup trucks. Maybe if they got lucky they captured an APC or MBT and got it up and running. But to know how to operate a sophisticated mobile SAM system seems a bit of a stretch to me. Or pro Russian separatists should be called Russian backed separatists.Whatever. It's starting to look like war is not a good answer eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted July 17, 2014 #104 Share Posted July 17, 2014 As per my knowledge ground to air missiles are always solid fuel devices so they cannot be without fuel in general (if not used already) Really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wearer of Hats Posted July 17, 2014 #105 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Looks like the Putiniks in East Ukraine have really done it this time. Should be amusing to watch the Russians squirm and try to shift blame and weasel out of responsibility. They'll blame the Ukrainian loyalists. 1 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabby Kitten Posted July 17, 2014 #106 Share Posted July 17, 2014 This is just so horrible. 2 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted July 17, 2014 #107 Share Posted July 17, 2014 If the missile operators had been trained well enough to know what it meant. Besides, even properly trained military personnel can get it dreadfully wrong (See Iran Air 655). Yes they can get it wrong. Though in this particular situation IF it were Russian operators, they surely would have known such a high flying aircraft would not have been anything other than transport aircraft. It seems far more likely with the added info coming in now that it was a Buk (SA11) and that it was being used by "operators" who had no business touching the thing. The Vincennes operators had recently taken fire from small boats and were primed to be thinking of combat - they screwed up and the US admitted it and paid reparations. Let's see what Russia does in a seemingly similar episode. 2 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skookum Posted July 17, 2014 #108 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Do we know for sure it wasn't Ukrainians who did this? Or are we just assuming? I was watching some experts talk earlier on the news. If it was Ukrainians or rebels shooting at what they believed was a Russian aircraft invading their territory it was heading the wrong way ie back into Russia. They thought it was far more likely to have been fired at an aircraft entering airspace not leaving it. If this is the case it could be a Russian mistake. They did shoot down a Ukrainian fighter jet earlier on. 2 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JestyBlue Posted July 18, 2014 #109 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Wow, this is terrible 2 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted July 18, 2014 #110 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Just in: #BREAKING: Number of dead from crash of #MH17 more than 300, includes 23 U.S. citizen: Interior Ministry adviser, quoted by Interfax Live text updates here http://www.bbc.co.uk.../world-28354787 27 of my countrymen too. 2 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted July 18, 2014 #111 Share Posted July 18, 2014 . how long before the CTs start showing up on here BR....? . Just a matter of time isn't it. With a coincidence like that. 2 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatus1 Posted July 18, 2014 #112 Share Posted July 18, 2014 He'll be looking eagerly to see if there's any way he can work it to his political advantage, is what he means. Well, sure. As will people on this website. 2 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DecoNoir Posted July 18, 2014 #113 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Well, sure. As will people on this website. Only adding to the tragedy, unfortunately. 1 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slate Posted July 18, 2014 #114 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Probably the fog of war mistaken identity theory is correct. The US shot down an Airbus A300 B2-203 with 290 people on board, using SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the USS Vincennes, on 3 July 1988. That plane had just taken off and wasn't very high, but still a highly sophisticated Ticonderoga-class Aegis guided missile cruiser mistook the civilian wide-body airliner for a fighter jet and fired at it. 1 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skookum Posted July 18, 2014 #115 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Probably the fog of war mistaken identity theory is correct. The US shot down an Airbus A300 B2-203 with 290 people on board, using SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the USS Vincennes, on 3 July 1988. That plane had just taken off and wasn't very high, but still a highly sophisticated Ticonderoga-class Aegis guided missile cruiser mistook the civilian wide-body airliner for a fighter jet and fired at it. Korean Air Lines Flight 007 was a scheduled Korean Air Lines flight from New York City to Seoul via Anchorage. On September 1, 1983, the airliner serving the flight was shot down by a Soviet Su-15 interceptor near Moneron Island, west of Sakhalin Island, in the Sea of Japan. I personally am very skeptical about the rebels did it claim. Earlier it was claimed it was a handheld SAM then when the figures were crunched it is a captured and hidden BUK. These two countries have been trading blows in the air for the last couple of days, I think a mistake has happened and rebels are the way to get them out of the firing line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafterman Posted July 18, 2014 #116 Share Posted July 18, 2014 According to reports, several top AIDS researchers on their way to a conference in Australia were killed in the attack. Of course Putin's probably cool with that. 3 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetoroam Posted July 18, 2014 #117 Share Posted July 18, 2014 They are saying the Ukranians seprative group may have stole an anti aircraft missile, surface to air missile, as this would have reached the plane at 32,000 feet. But at 32,000 feet, you could still tell if it were a military plane or a civilian plane, ,I am not going with the error, how ever it was done, it was deliberate, the warnings had been given so who ever flew over there wasreally taking on heck of a risk.....with civilians on board. 1 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafterman Posted July 18, 2014 #118 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I personally am very skeptical about the rebels did it claim. Earlier it was claimed it was a handheld SAM then when the figures were crunched it is a captured and hidden BUK. These two countries have been trading blows in the air for the last couple of days, I think a mistake has happened and rebels are the way to get them out of the firing line. Who thought it was a handheld SAM? I was hearing about the BUK pretty much from the second it was confirmed to be a shootdown. Anyone who knows anything about MANPAD systems knows that it couldn't have been one give the altitude of the plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhen Posted July 18, 2014 #119 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Putin statement on the Ukrainian plane crash. "In this regard, I want to note that this tragedy would not have happened if there were peace on this land, if the military actions had not been renewed in southeast Ukraine. And, certainly, the state over whose territory this occurred bears responsibility for this awful tragedy." http://abcnews.go.co...-crash-24610012 Right, and obviously the Sea of Japan bears some responsibility for the shoot down of Korean Air Lines Flight 007. 3 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolguy Posted July 18, 2014 #120 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Russia shot this jet down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MordorOrc Posted July 18, 2014 #121 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I'm not surprised if the rebels shot it down. They are in possession of one of those Buk systems mentioned by various news sources that was responsible for the shootdown. They lack the training and equipment to successfully operate the systems to identify civilian and military aircraft and they lack the discipline to refrain from firing off missiles at every single opportunity. Given that the Ukrainian military lost two aircraft in the three days previous to today's incident, I would not be surprised if the rebels fired on it thinking it was a military aircraft. 1 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astra. Posted July 18, 2014 #122 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Condolences to the families....just another dreadful tragedy of more innocent lives lost. 5 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted July 18, 2014 #123 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted July 18, 2014 #124 Share Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) They are saying the Ukranians seprative group may have stole an anti aircraft missile, surface to air missile, as this would have reached the plane at 32,000 feet. But at 32,000 feet, you could still tell if it were a military plane or a civilian plane, ,I am not going with the error, how ever it was done, it was deliberate, the warnings had been given so who ever flew over there was really taking on heck of a risk.....with civilians on board. If they thought it was a military transport plane, like an An-12 or Il-76, that would be indistinguishable to a civilian aircraft at that height, particularly to inexperienced or not properly trained operators who wouldn't know about things like identification codes and so on. Edited July 18, 2014 by Admiral Rhubarb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeder Posted July 18, 2014 Author #125 Share Posted July 18, 2014 'There's going to be hell to pay and there should be!': John McCain warns of 'incredible repercussions' if Russian forces or pro-Russian separatists downed MH17. 1 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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