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Malaysian Aircraft shot down over Ukraine


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Arrogant??? The FAA has NO Jurisdiction WHATSOEVER in European airspace, it CANNOT put prohibition orders in place except over USA controlled territories. I do not care what "sources" you produce because being in the industry, at the pointy end, I know that whatever you are relying on to make a point is totally fallacious. Also we are not talking about Southern Ukraine, but Eastern Ukraine. Also note, that Malaysian Airlines is not a US Airline, and some 800 flights had already flown through the same corridor without incident in the same week.

Just to underline the point: the FAA can make recommendations for US airlines and Charter flights, it does not and cannot enforce these recommendations.

I never said it was a US airline, and the point I was making (because i was trying to say why I thought it was not an accident) is EXACTLY what you have pointed out: flights had already flown through the same corridor without incident in the same week.

I mentioned that passenger planes were flying over that area and so far only military planes had been shot down, so why this plane.

I did not say the FAA had Jurisdiction over European airspace, the article did not say that either, it said:

U.S. Federal Aviation Administration put out an order prohibiting American pilots, airlines, charter carriers, and everyone else over whom the FAA has direct jurisdiction,

Which does not mean it has Jurisdiction in European airspace.

Edited by freetoroam
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im not trying to be disrespectful, but the video of the plane crash doesn't match up with these quotes. Theres no sign of an explosion or any smoke in the sky, just a large explosion on the ground. Has it been proven that this was a missle strike? Because I'd expect the wreckage to be spread over several square miles.

This video clearly shows debris drifting down through the smoke indicating that the plane had broken up before hitting the ground. Keep in mind this craft was over 6 miles up when it was struck and the wreckage is spread over about 10 miles.

*snip*

Edited by Saru
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Was just going to say that I've seen video of debris raining down. That also collaborates eyewitness accounts of wreckage and bodies raining down. I believe the news said the black fireball was the jet fuel exploding on impact. Some quite large pieces of the plane were lying around in the pictures from the scene, many not so large. The fact that the separatists won't let anyone in to recover the bodies is what really gets me going. That's not even acceptable. Those poor families. Let them bury their dead.

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What I am concerned about today is what is happening with the recovery of the bodies and the investigation. Apparently there has been no attempt to recover the bodies and arrange for their return to loved ones, I find this abhorrent. In fact, there is no co-ordinated investigation and recovery taking place at all. Ukraine may not be responsible for the crash but it has a moral responsibility to have the services required to assist in the recovery on the ground - but there is nothing co-ordinated going on and the emergency workers that are on the scene are claiming "it is not their job to recover the bodies". Who is going to do this and when? The families deserve better and this is something Ukraine can be held directly responsible for - they are not doing enough and behaving ignorantly toward the sensibilities of the loved ones of the victims.

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As I understand the insurgents won't let anyone in to remove the bodies and they are in control of the area. CNN said there were 80 children, 3 of them infants, on Flt. 17. Totally unacceptable.

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As I understand the insurgents won't let anyone in to remove the bodies and they are in control of the area. CNN said there were 80 children, 3 of them infants, on Flt. 17. Totally unacceptable.

Are they guarding the site pending an investigation though? They don't seem to mind the media hanging around and filming and they seem to be standing around waiting for something to happen in terms of recovery more than anything else. There may need to be a negotiation to allow the investigators and emergency services from Ukraine access but I doubt they will fight them for that access, it isn't in anyone's interests. I notice they are also not "looting" the site which doubly convinces me that they are willing to allow a proper response when it arrives to clear up and investigate this mess.

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What I am concerned about today is what is happening with the recovery of the bodies and the investigation. Apparently there has been no attempt to recover the bodies and arrange for their return to loved ones, I find this abhorrent. In fact, there is no co-ordinated investigation and recovery taking place at all. Ukraine may not be responsible for the crash but it has a moral responsibility to have the services required to assist in the recovery on the ground - but there is nothing co-ordinated going on and the emergency workers that are on the scene are claiming "it is not their job to recover the bodies". Who is going to do this and when? The families deserve better and this is something Ukraine can be held directly responsible for - they are not doing enough and behaving ignorantly toward the sensibilities of the loved ones of the victims.

As susiece said above I've read that the crash site is in rebel hands and a report I read on Yahoo said that there were at least 5 checkpoints reporters had to go through to get to the area. These people are dead and it's not reasonable that Ukraine officials risk life and limb. The pro-russian separatist rebels are the ones who currently should be held responsible for the bodies being returned to their country of origin and arranging for and guaranteeing the safety of professional investigators reaching the scene to sort this mess out.

One can only hope that this tragedy will wake people up to the futility and wrongness of violence and bing about peace negotiation and healing for the people that live there. To me it is ridiculous to believe that these farm boy separatists obtained ground to air missiles without Russia. Russia needs to back off and learn to live with the fact that the Ukraine is now it's own entity and not Russian territory. This entire mess can be blamed on Russian interference and corruption and anyone who says different is a fool or a liar. I have more than a few friends and acquaintances that moved here from the Ukraine in the 90's and they uniformly state that Ukraine has always wanted freedom from Russia.

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The reports I've been hearing are pretty similar to the ones OverSword mentions. The separatists are in control of the area and not willingly letting a lot of people in. Supposedly the rocket launcher and the black boxes have been turned over to Russia. The Ukrainians have turned over intercepted phone calls that leave no doubt of what happened and Russia's involvement in it. Putin has repeatedly said Russia wasn't involved with the uprising. There was concern about how much damage has been done to the crash site. There hasn't been any start to an official investigation that I've heard of. Not at the scene. Most countries think the story of what happened is cut and dry. The investigation has only been in gathering evidence to that aspect of the crash outside of the Ukraine.

I also heard the Ukrainian people who live there and aren't part of the rebels are very distraught over the scenes of carnage spread out over their area. I don't think they're in much of a position to assist very much.

Maybe someone else has heard of a team of investigators heading in.

Edited by susieice
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Is it true the Russians have recovered the black box and hot footed it over the border into Russia? surely it should have been handed over to Ukrainian authorities seeing the plane come down in their country.

Russian separatists had recovered the black box and had sent it to Moscow. And international law governing the responsibilities of air crashes doesn't take into account disputed territory.

What fool would plot an air route over what is potentially a warzone?

Eastern Ukraine and Western Russia is an important air route for transcontinental flights between Europe and southeast Asia. Nearly every major carrier flying between Europe and southeast Asia flies over the Ukraine because it provides the quickest and most direct route which minimizes fuel costs. Aircraft fly over conflict zones all the time, largely because the conflict areas do not have rebel groups with sophisticated weaponry. There was a now fly zone below a certain altitude which was put at the limit of known anti-air missiles in service with the Russian separatists. They imposed a limit of about five kilometers because the shoulder launched missiles in use by the rebels could not fly any higher.

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Great NPR link, thank you susieice. I sincerely hope that the American investigators will be able to help, there can be little doubt that the US investigators are the most experienced, competent and best equipped and trained (keeping in mind Boeing is a US company) to direct this procedure. (Damn we Americans are arrogant aren't we)

One thing is certain, when Obama has a script he is good.

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For any doubt, Russian radar picked up a missile for those who think otherwise

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This has got to be the most Inane and ignorant post that I have seen in my 7 years on this site!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN FAA PLANE!!. Unless you care to disabuse me of this belief ( I am an FAA and EASA consultant) then I suggest that you concentrate on making valid observations.

ALSO: their is no such thing as an "accidental" shooting down of an aircraft that has been targeted by a ground to air missile. THE ACT WAS DELIBERATE.

The BUK GtoA missile system is primed to explode c100 metres from the target. The projectile itself has a forward momentum in excess of 3X the speed of sound, the explosion WILL penetrate the skin of the aircraft causing rapid (if not catastrophic) decompression within the cabin, and irrecoverable engine damage. At this point the outcome is certain. Control systems (this was a fly - by - wire aircraft) will be totally overwhelmed, the wing roots may or may not be compromised, but all of the control surface WILL be compromised.

I saw footage of an intact wing on the ground so the fuel did not ignite in that wing, therefore there would not be a fireball at 30,000feet.

For those that are interested in the "boring" Air Traffic Control data ... the aircraft was most certainly at 33000 feet - why would a civilian aircraft, en - route to Australia - be any any lower???

The idiotic, uninformed, unknowledgeable conspiracy theorists will diminish the clear truth of this act of terrorism, and try to make something else out of this simple act. :td:

So you don't believe that it could have been mistaken for a Ukrainian Govt. transport aircraft? You're sure that the operators were certain that it was a Malaysian airliner before pressing the button? Why would they specifically and deliberately single out a Malaysian aircraft?

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As susiece said above I've read that the crash site is in rebel hands and a report I read on Yahoo said that there were at least 5 checkpoints reporters had to go through to get to the area. These people are dead and it's not reasonable that Ukraine officials risk life and limb. The pro-russian separatist rebels are the ones who currently should be held responsible for the bodies being returned to their country of origin and arranging for and guaranteeing the safety of professional investigators reaching the scene to sort this mess out.

One can only hope that this tragedy will wake people up to the futility and wrongness of violence and bing about peace negotiation and healing for the people that live there. To me it is ridiculous to believe that these farm boy separatists obtained ground to air missiles without Russia. Russia needs to back off and learn to live with the fact that the Ukraine is now it's own entity and not Russian territory. This entire mess can be blamed on Russian interference and corruption and anyone who says different is a fool or a liar. I have more than a few friends and acquaintances that moved here from the Ukraine in the 90's and they uniformly state that Ukraine has always wanted freedom from Russia.

So the Crimea was all coerced into voting for Russia then? Yes, Ukraine has always been barely got along with Russia; after the revolution they sided with Germany, and again in WWII they welcomed quite enthusiastically the German "Liberators", and even supplied some of the more reliable foreign SS units. I'm afraid it's a bit simplistic just to say that all Ukraine wants is to be free of Russia; I'm afraid that simply isn't true for all of it.
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So the Crimea was all coerced into voting for Russia then? Yes, Ukraine has always been barely got along with Russia; after the revolution they sided with Germany, and again in WWII they welcomed quite enthusiastically the German "Liberators", and even supplied some of the more reliable foreign SS units. I'm afraid it's a bit simplistic just to say that all Ukraine wants is to be free of Russia; I'm afraid that simply isn't true for all of it.

But, but, but, WWII, SS, so Russia can do no wrong?

If you’re that simple, I am not.

Gladomor. Or Holodomor. Read about it before you embarrass your Russian apologetic ass like that again. (It predates SS by almost a decade and explains it.)

I don’t know if I should laugh or vomit first.

By the way, the Russians don’t deny the projectile, they naturally deny it was theirs, but in such contradictory and fantastic ways it would be hilarious if it wasn’t horrifying.

And the guy, Strelkov, who is chief of separatists in the area and therefore probably the one responsible for taking down civilian airliner instead of Ukrainian plane (like it would be a lot more acceptable) was also volunteer in Greater Serbian forces during Serbian aggression on Bosnia and Herzegovina.

This is who you’re attempting to whitewash here, in case you didn’t know.

I must have gone completely mad, talking to people who take Crimean ""voting"" seriously...

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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Great NPR link, thank you susieice. I sincerely hope that the American investigators will be able to help, there can be little doubt that the US investigators are the most experienced, competent and best equipped and trained (keeping in mind Boeing is a US company) to direct this procedure. (Damn we Americans are arrogant aren't we)

One thing is certain, when Obama has a script he is good.

You are talking rubbish. Air Accident Investigators from around the world share everything, and before you start saying "Americans are arrogant" you should only speak within your small circle of acquaintances if they think the same as you. The vast majority of US Americans that I know are nothing of the sort.

Reports are coming in of looting at the site now, destruction of parts the crash site, and still no access for the competent authorities.

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So you don't believe that it could have been mistaken for a Ukrainian Govt. transport aircraft? You're sure that the operators were certain that it was a Malaysian airliner before pressing the button? Why would they specifically and deliberately single out a Malaysian aircraft?

It would be impossible for a trained missile unit to "mistake" the aircraft that they targeted because the transponders on the aircraft were ALL functioning correctly giving the exact type of aircraft that was flying. I have never said that they specifically targeted a Malaysian airliner, just that they intentionally targeted a Civilian airliner. Even with a good pair of Binoculars it would be impossible to mistake the silhouette of a 777 for any Ukrainian Military aircraft.

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It would be impossible for a trained missile unit to "mistake" the aircraft that they targeted because the transponders

on the aircraft were ALL functioning correctly giving the exact type of aircraft that was flying.

History has shown that it is possible, see KE007 and IR655 for example. Even with high advanced technology, the option

for human error is present anytime. Modern AA systems operate with IFF systems (Identification friend or foe) and IFF

systems identify just such objects that identify themselfs as friend by sending back a coded signal, thats known by the

IFF system, to the targeting AA unit. The standard transponder signals of commercial airliners do not carry these cryptic

codes within their signals so the aircrafts are not displayed as friend in the AA units logic. In addition, IFF systems are

not active automatically and can be switched on/off. This funktion is required to allow the AA unit to self-defence in case

of IFF system error and getting targeted/attacked by a force that has been identified as enemy by using other procedures

than IFF.

In a nutshell, standard transponder signals of commercial airliners are not a guarantor therefore that these A/C are getting

not targeted/attacked by AA units.

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what can a man say about this tragedy? My condolences to all the families of the people, who were killed! May they rest in peace.... :(

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Russian separatists had recovered the black box and had sent it to Moscow. And international law governing the responsibilities of air crashes doesn't take into account disputed territory.

It's not disputed territory as the rebel authority is not internationally recognised as a government. So, international law does apply. As to whether it can be successfully applied is another matter entirely.

Admiral,

So you don't believe that it could have been mistaken for a Ukrainian Govt. transport aircraft? You're sure that the operators were certain that it was a Malaysian airliner before pressing the button? Why would they specifically and deliberately single out a Malaysian aircraft?

I think what keithisco is stating - with validity - is that the act of firing a missile at the aircraft was not an accident. Whoever fired the missile meant to destroy the aircraft.

That they failed to identify the aircraft beforehand does not mitigate this - in fact, it makes the act worse because of the irresponsibility of it.

Edited by Leonardo
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History has shown that it is possible, see KE007 and IR655 for example. Even with high advanced technology, the option

for human error is present anytime. Modern AA systems operate with IFF systems (Identification friend or foe) and IFF

systems identify just such objects that identify themselfs as friend by sending back a coded signal, thats known by the

IFF system, to the targeting AA unit. The standard transponder signals of commercial airliners do not carry these cryptic

codes within their signals so the aircrafts are not displayed as friend in the AA units logic. In addition, IFF systems are

not active automatically and can be switched on/off. This funktion is required to allow the AA unit to self-defence in case

of IFF system error and getting targeted/attacked by a force that has been identified as enemy by using other procedures

than IFF.

In a nutshell, standard transponder signals of commercial airliners are not a guarantor therefore that these A/C are getting

not targeted/attacked by AA units.

Right.

Civilian aircraft do not transmit any encrypted military signals - by dint of them being Civilian. The transponder data IS however transmitted continuously and IS detectable by missile systems, ALL missile systems with the exception of hand launch systems. The radar system on the BUK constantly updates trajectories and displays all relevant data on the screen. For the missile to hit it's target the Radar must be switched on.

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As I understand the insurgents won't let anyone in to remove the bodies and they are in control of the area. CNN said there were 80 children, 3 of them infants, on Flt. 17. Totally unacceptable.

It makes me sick! They are totally out of control....
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Right.

Civilian aircraft do not transmit any encrypted military signals - by dint of them being Civilian. The transponder data IS however transmitted continuously and IS detectable by missile systems, ALL missile systems with the exception of hand launch systems. The radar system on the BUK constantly updates trajectories and displays all relevant data on the screen. For the missile to hit it's target the Radar must be switched on.

It is possible the operators of the system were trained sufficiently to fire it without being trained to properly interpret the data the system displayed. This is not any excuse for the operators, btw.

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It would be impossible for a trained missile unit to "mistake" the aircraft that they targeted because the transponders on the aircraft were ALL functioning correctly giving the exact type of aircraft that was flying. I have never said that they specifically targeted a Malaysian airliner, just that they intentionally targeted a Civilian airliner. Even with a good pair of Binoculars it would be impossible to mistake the silhouette of a 777 for any Ukrainian Military aircraft.

Not sure about the indistinguishable bit, they obviously knew what they were doing and had already shot down other military planes, even at that height (we are not talking UFO's here) the Boeing Is a different shaped plane.

But at 32,000 feet, you could still tell if it were a military plane or a civilian plane, ,I am not going with the error, how ever it was done, it was deliberate,

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Civilian aircraft do not transmit any encrypted military signals - by dint of them being Civilian. The transponder data IS however

transmitted continuously and IS detectable by missile systems, ALL missile systems with the exception of hand launch systems.

The radar system on the BUK constantly updates trajectories and displays all relevant data on the screen. For the missile to hit

it's target the Radar must be switched on.

Thats all correct but does not change that fact that the option that even an A/C with active (commercial) transponder can get

targeted/attacked by an AA unit, is given.

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