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RoofGardener

ISIS issues ultimatum to Christians

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RoofGardener

So INTERFERENCE BY WESTERN COUNTRIES, interested in said Oil, and in spreading their doctrines of Capitalism, and their not hesitating to change a country's government if they didn't think it was co-operative enough, didn't come into it then?

When does a trading partnership constitute 'interference' ? The West needed the Oil. The Middle Eastern nations had limited need for Oil, but DID want foreign capital. It was a match made in heaven, from that point of view.

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Space Commander Travis

If it had been restricted to a trading partnership, I'm sure everyone would have managed to get along. I suspect it may have been when Western govts. began to think that it might be advantageous to them to make sure that the right Governments were in power, and it moved beyond trading to imposing the right leader to suit the West, and maintaining military presences (nothing to do with the oil, necessarily, just to have a conveniently situated base in the region, which was one of mr. O bin L's main bones of contention). That tends to be the sort of time when people begin to see you as a occupier or at the very least an unwelcome presence.

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RoofGardener

Hmm... prior to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, what military bases DID "the West" have on the Arabian peninsula ?

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Space Commander Travis

They'd done it by proxy up until then, supporting governments that suited their purposes (e.g. the Shah in Iran, and of course ol' Saddam himself when he was fighting the Mad Mullahs). It was Desert Storm that really gave them a great opportunity to set up a permanent military presence. If one was conspiratorially minded, that might make one pause for thought, perhaps. :unsure2:

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and then

If it had been restricted to a trading partnership, I'm sure everyone would have managed to get along. I suspect it may have been when Western govts. began to think that it might be advantageous to them to make sure that the right Governments were in power, and it moved beyond trading to imposing the right leader to suit the West, and maintaining military presences (nothing to do with the oil, necessarily, just to have a conveniently situated base in the region, which was one of mr. O bin L's main bones of contention). That tends to be the sort of time when people begin to see you as a occupier or at the very least an unwelcome presence.

While I won't deny the truth of what you say I will point out that we ALL - every western country - have benefitted economically from a society driven by consumption of oil. None of us are innocent of that. So sermonizing over the dirty corporations and governments who meddle to keep the oil flowing is a bit hypocritical isn't it?

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Br Cornelius

While I won't deny the truth of what you say I will point out that we ALL - every western country - have benefitted economically from a society driven by consumption of oil. None of us are innocent of that. So sermonizing over the dirty corporations and governments who meddle to keep the oil flowing is a bit hypocritical isn't it?

Not when you are also against most of the society it produced. I am staunchly for decarbonizing the economy whatever that means for the current structure of society. I firmly believe that the future without wasteful use of fossil fuels will be infinitely better than the current horror story we live in.

The situation in Palestine is just a nasty subplot to this bigger narrative.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Space Commander Travis

While I won't deny the truth of what you say I will point out that we ALL - every western country - have benefitted economically from a society driven by consumption of oil. None of us are innocent of that. So sermonizing over the dirty corporations and governments who meddle to keep the oil flowing is a bit hypocritical isn't it?

it's not the oil trading I'm sermonizing about, as i said; no one could complain about fair trade. But the methods that have been used haven't always been fair, have they? It's the political pressure that goes with it that's the problem.

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Lilly

One other aspect to think about; it was the 'evil western countries' that made certain arab nations rich beyond measure. So, I propose there are no 'innocent victims' in this scenario. The arab nations had the oil and the western nations paid them nicely for it.

I just looked this up:

Amoudi family 15 Billion net worth

Alsaud family 22 Billion net worth

I wish I had something that the 'evil western nations' wanted.

Edited by Lilly
addition
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Yamato

he's not the only one of his ilk, of course.....

=hamas2.jpg?size=webview

Well you can't forget all the dumb Israelis who keep saying it either. That's an awesome picture. Where and when was it taken?

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bee

Well you can't forget all the dumb Israelis who keep saying it either. That's an awesome picture. Where and when was it taken?

it was from the link with the post.....

so you think it's an 'awesome picture' do you...?....

does it excite you..?

fill you with pride..?

.

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Yamato

it was from the link with the post.....

so you think it's an 'awesome picture' do you...?....

People who come together to fight for their rights should fill us all with pride. It begs to question what your values are when you're questioning mine.

Do you think that an oppressive state should be able to destroy your freedom under the law?

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bee

People who come together to fight for their rights should fill us all with pride. It begs to question what your values are when you're questioning mine.

Do you think that an oppressive state should be able to destroy your freedom under the law?

so you are proud of Hamas....?

that just about sums you and your values up...

.

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Yamato

I'm proud of the right to gather and protest, of course I am. Any red-blooded American is. I don't look at any other people and then presume that they don't have the same inalienable rights that I do.

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bee

I'm proud of the right to gather and protest, of course I am. Any red-blooded American is. I don't look at any other people and then presume that they don't have the same inalienable rights that I do.

oh dear..... how wishy washy ...

your really are a Hamas apologist of the first order....

:td:

.

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RavenHawk

I'm proud of the right to gather and protest, of course I am. Any red-blooded American is. I don't look at any other people and then presume that they don't have the same inalienable rights that I do.

I just happen to be drinking milk as it comes flying out my nose…..

Anyone that doesn’t agree with you is a neocon/liberal/maddog zionist/etc sub human. You make that statement almost in every post.

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Br Cornelius

Just you Raven :whistle:

They broke the mould.

Br Cornelius

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Yamato

I just happen to be drinking milk as it comes flying out my nose…..

Anyone that doesn't agree with you is a neocon/liberal/maddog zionist/etc sub human. You make that statement almost in every post.

Putting words in my mouth and lying again.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Indeed Shooma, indeed.

Of course, we'll have to teach them to read first ?

It started at the beginning of the 20th Century, though it peaked on the run-up to WW2, and afterwards.

OIL

Suddenly, Sates like the newly-founded Saudi Arabia where swimming in money, and could (and did) afford to start to fund evangelical centres around the World, as well as buying weapons from the West. The inculcation of radical Islam was bootstrapped to a new level.

COMMUNICATIONS

A firebrand preacher in downtown Yemen can - thanks to the new-fangled invention of Radio - be heard for hundreds of miles around. Possibly even further, once they had invented electricity :P.

In more recent years, with the advent of Broadband, their mouthfoamings have a worldwide audience.

Previously, such a preacher could only directly influence the congregation of their Mosque. Now they can spread their poison worldwide. In real-time.

That would about the way people described the preachings of one Martin Luther King Jr., a Black man here in the US, when the drive for Civil Rights was really taking root here. They all feared the "darkie".

Now, of course, King is an honored man. And how long did Nelson Mandela spend in prison, Gardener?

You must think of these things, mon amis, because the Islamic train is on a heavy roll right now.

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Yamato

The reason Israel apologists don't like the word "Zionist" is because it accurately contains who is responsible for the criminal actions of Israel. It's not "the Jews" because it's a "Jewish Homeland". Israel and the Zionists would love for everyone to believe that.

Finding individuals from Hamas who bought the soap, who are making the same logical error, doesn't excuse making the same error yourself, Zionists.

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and then

That would about the way people described the preachings of one Martin Luther King Jr., a Black man here in the US, when the drive for Civil Rights was really taking root here. They all feared the "darkie".

Now, of course, King is an honored man. And how long did Nelson Mandela spend in prison, Gardener?

You must think of these things, mon amis, because the Islamic train is on a heavy roll right now.

That train hasn't even BEGUN to really roll yet. And those who make a point of providing cover for the actions of those who would destroy this country gladly will have hell to pay when the next - probably FAR worse - 9-11 happens. And it WILL happen, just a matter of time. If I were you I'd keep these sentiments restricted to online activities because you fellow citizens might decide to give you some gentle correction in the aftermath of such an event.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

That train hasn't even BEGUN to really roll yet. And those who make a point of providing cover for the actions of those who would destroy this country gladly will have hell to pay when the next - probably FAR worse - 9-11 happens. And it WILL happen, just a matter of time. If I were you I'd keep these sentiments restricted to online activities because you fellow citizens might decide to give you some gentle correction in the aftermath of such an event.

AT, may I remind you, the reason why terrorist attacks have happened to Americans all over the world, as well as here on 911, is because the US gives, bombs and money to butchering religious cleansers who stole Palestinian land and won't give it back. Justice can not be administered to the Israelis so long as America keeps fortifying Israel's defense, and as a result, the Muslim fundamentalists take it out on our hide.

THAT'S the reason.

And the angry mob that may want to run me down after a new and improved 911 happens, - all I can say to them is, "I told you so, and you didn't listen".

Enjoy the chaos, everyone!

Edited by Earl.Of.Trumps
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and then

AT, may I remind you, the reason why terrorist attacks have happened to Americans all over the world, as well as here on 911, is because the US gives, bombs and money to butchering religious cleansers who stole Palestinian land and won't give it back. Justice can not be administered to the Israelis so long as America keeps fortifying Israel's defense, and as a result, the Muslim fundamentalists take it out on our hide.

THAT'S the reason.

And the angry mob that may want to run me down after a new and improved 911 happens, - all I can say to them is, "I told you so, and you didn't listen".

Enjoy the chaos, everyone!

That is one messed up attitude you have man. But hey, to each his own. It sounds more like you're willing to grovel on your knees to people who'd cut your head off given an opportunity. As you say - and I agree - enjoy the ride...

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meryt-tetisheri

While I don't disagree in any particular with the points you make, I rather suspect it is the encroachment of "Western culture and thinking" into those conservative Muslim communities that has done more to radicalise segments of the population and cause the ruling authorities to - at least initially - adopt an even more conservative outlook in an attempt to "defend Islam".

The real problem is that Islam cannot survive contact with progressive ideologies, but the natural instinct of people is to remain in a comfortable 'stasis'. This situation is exacerbated by that 'stasis' being maintained through a rigid theological authority.

I agree with you that exposure to Western culture played an important complex role which is very difficult to gauge. The problem is that its scope and nature are very uneven in the area in general, and also within the same society.

For some societies that exposure started traumatically with Napoléon’s invasion, but an adaptation was eventually achieved, mostly among urban segments of society (Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Tunisia..). In the conservative Peninsula, on the other hand, the general population - particularly nomadic tribes- had very little exposure to Western thought & culture. Their culture has always been conservative. Fundamentalism there would have more to do with role played by a strict, controlling government, and the Saud/ Abdul Wahab pact. The latter through petro-dollars played an influential role in defining Islamic practice in the whole area. I suspect “stasis” could also be viewed as ‘revivalism’ which started in the 1970s & 80s. With the floundering economy, the ruralization of cities, due to the increasing impoverishment of the countryside, further fueled the revivalistic movement. “We are being punished for failing to adhere to the tenants of Islam”, “We were prosperous and had a great Empire when we did”, “Islam is the solution”. At this point some will be attracted to extremist ideologies, and some of them will join their organizations. Generous funding eases the whole process.

There is no going back to the ‘purist’ image some are envisioning. Western thought & culture are not transmitted directly through routes from which Western societies can retract. Ideas are carried by the Western material culture which is spreading incrementally, and has become an indispensable part of Islamic societies. Houses in the smallest villages have satellite dishes, the internet is quasi impossible to control by governments and religious authorities, and access to it is rapidly on the rise.

The jigsaw puzzle has been thrown in the air a long time ago, and they are very slowly falling into a new pattern. It does not mean the demise of Islam, but probably opening the locked door of ‘Ijtihad’ and a new cultural adaptation…I think (it's 2 AM here)!

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Yamato

That is one messed up attitude you have man. But hey, to each his own. It sounds more like you're willing to grovel on your knees to people who'd cut your head off given an opportunity. As you say - and I agree - enjoy the ride...

He's stating the facts. We're over there for oil, you're wrapping it up in religion which our policy has absolutely nothing to do with. And our results together with our interventionism have been disastrous from one end of the Middle East to the other. We have no friends, no good allies, no treaty we haven't wet on, and little respect left from the rest of the world who are still supposed to think that America is exceptional.

Nobody is exceptional. Let's mind our own business and be the best freest country that we can be. Leadership by example. Not repeating the same piece of rhetoric 100 times over again to continue excusing a genocide.

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Br Cornelius

The day that all these extremist monotheistic religions fade under the weight of their own inadequacies and internal contradictions will be a mighty day for humanity. I really have no time for fundamentalists of any flavour - a failure of human evolution in my book.

Secularism will always win in the end because the flight to extremism will always fail to deliver on its promises and will always bring suffering in its wake - religion (of the fundamentalist creed) is its own worst enemy.

Br Cornelius

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