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RoofGardener

ISIS issues ultimatum to Christians

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Space Commander Travis

AT, may I remind you, the reason why terrorist attacks have happened to Americans all over the world, as well as here on 911, is because the US gives, bombs and money to butchering religious cleansers who stole Palestinian land and won't give it back. Justice can not be administered to the Israelis so long as America keeps fortifying Israel's defense, and as a result, the Muslim fundamentalists take it out on our hide.

THAT'S the reason.

And the angry mob that may want to run me down after a new and improved 911 happens, - all I can say to them is, "I told you so, and you didn't listen".

Enjoy the chaos, everyone!

No, they hate our freedoms!! It was nothing at all to do with anything the West may have done, people have demonstrated that very conclusively. :innocent:
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Br Cornelius

Cooky Cutter stories to goad the people into accepting wars of conquest. It works unfortunately.

Stupid Monkeys.

Br Cornelius

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Lilly

...There is no going back to the ‘purist’ image some are envisioning. Western thought & culture are not transmitted directly through routes from which Western societies can retract. Ideas are carried by the Western material culture which is spreading incrementally, and has become an indispensable part of Islamic societies. Houses in the smallest villages have satellite dishes, the internet is quasi impossible to control by governments and religious authorities, and access to it is rapidly on the rise.

The jigsaw puzzle has been thrown in the air a long time ago, and they are very slowly falling into a new pattern. It does not mean the demise of Islam, but probably opening the locked door of ‘Ijtihad’ and a new cultural adaptation…I think (it's 2 AM here)!

I think you've definitively highlighted the real problem. Western nations brought wealth to these countries (through developing oil industry), but they also brought western culture. It's now the proverbial 'genie out of the bottle' that can't be put back. Social structure is now dictated more by economic gains and a far more global culture. Some adapt better than others and some others actively look to stop progress and attempt to return to the past. Blaming the western nations and calling for a return to the way things were over a 100 years ago is not (IMO anyway) going to work.

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Br Cornelius

I think you've definitively highlighted the real problem. Western nations brought wealth to these countries (through developing oil industry), but they also brought western culture. It's now the proverbial 'genie out of the bottle' that can't be put back. Social structure is now dictated more by economic gains and a far more global culture. Some adapt better than others and some others actively look to stop progress and attempt to return to the past. Blaming the western nations and calling for a return to the way things were over a 100 years ago is not (IMO anyway) going to work.

But thats not what is really going on is it - what is happening is that Western nations are actively intervening to further their own interests and that is causing considerable extra suffering in the region. It is undoubtedly true to say that the conflict would exist because of the progress of secular values in the region on their own terms - but it is the cynical manipulation of those trends by the West which is throwing considerable oil on the fire.

Br Cornelius

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Space Commander Travis

I think you've definitively highlighted the real problem. Western nations brought wealth to these countries (through developing oil industry), but they also brought western culture. It's now the proverbial 'genie out of the bottle' that can't be put back. Social structure is now dictated more by economic gains and a far more global culture. Some adapt better than others and some others actively look to stop progress and attempt to return to the past. Blaming the western nations and calling for a return to the way things were over a 100 years ago is not (IMO anyway) going to work.

You really don't think it does have anything to do with politics just as much as religion? that "religious extremism" is really just a handy way for people to say "there's no possibility of discussing anything rationally with these people, so we're not even going to bother, we're just going to continue to shoot them", or that the argument that "They'd cut off your head given the slightest opportunity" and "They want to destroy our way of life", is really just dismissing any possibility that the West may have ever done anything to annoy or antagonise them, and it just lumps them all together as a bunch of deranged and totally irrational fanatics who don't have any case of their own, but have just risen up completely unprovoked and decided to attack the Civilised world out of a sheer, fanatical obsessive desire to Destroy?
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Yamato

I think you've definitively highlighted the real problem. Western nations brought wealth to these countries (through developing oil industry), but they also brought western culture. It's now the proverbial 'genie out of the bottle' that can't be put back. Social structure is now dictated more by economic gains and a far more global culture. Some adapt better than others and some others actively look to stop progress and attempt to return to the past. Blaming the western nations and calling for a return to the way things were over a 100 years ago is not (IMO anyway) going to work.

Other than all the oil money which so richly lavished very selective peoples' lives over there, is it our culture to overthrow democratically elected leaders and replace them with dictator puppets?

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Yamato

But thats not what is really going on is it - what is happening is that Western nations are actively intervening to further their own interests and that is causing considerable extra suffering in the region. It is undoubtedly true to say that the conflict would exist because of the progress of secular values in the region on their own terms - but it is the cynical manipulation of those trends by the West which is throwing considerable oil on the fire.

Blaming our "culture" is one step away from "They hate us for our freedom!"

The actions of my government in the Middle East don't represent me and I've never experienced anything like it in American culture. Unbelievable that government hypocrisy gets covered up for with "western culture".

Edited by Yamato

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libstaK

The day that all these extremist monotheistic religions fade under the weight of their own inadequacies and internal contradictions will be a mighty day for humanity. I really have no time for fundamentalists of any flavour - a failure of human evolution in my book.

Secularism will always win in the end because the flight to extremism will always fail to deliver on its promises and will always bring suffering in its wake - religion (of the fundamentalist creed) is its own worst enemy.

Br Cornelius

Well as a christian - I heartily agree with you. We are all different but we are all here, if you believe in a God and his will, then we are all here because he has chosen for us to be here.

More importantly though, we have free will. What I choose is my fate, what another chooses is theirs - why on earth anyone would think it is their place to determine what another's fate should be based on them believing something different about the Great Incomprehensible Deity (whatever you choose to call him/it) is beyond my capacity to comprehend.

It's a big world, let's just share it and live as full a life as we all can in it. The only law that makes sense to ensure we can do that is a secular law, because it is the only one with the inherent capacity to allow all creeds to live and let live.

Edited by libstaK
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RoofGardener

Other than all the oil money which so richly lavished very selective peoples' lives over there, is it our culture to overthrow democratically elected leaders and replace them with dictator puppets?

Democratically elected leaders ?

Iraq: Dictator

Jordan: Monarchy

Saudi Arabia: Monarchy

Lebanon: Syrian Client state until 2005. Subsequently: Confessionalist Parliamentary theocracy. (e.g. representation based on religious quotas)

Syria: formally Dictatorship, now No Overall Control.

Kuwait: Emirate (monarchy)

Oman: Sultanate (absolute monarchy)

Bahrain: Monarchy

United Arab Emirates: Federation of Emirs under central monarch.

Quatar: Absolute monarchy

Yemen: Kleptocracy

Israel: Parliamentary Democracy with proportional representation.

Remind me again Yamato, WHICH "democratically elected" leaders did we overthrow ?

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meryt-tetisheri

But thats not what is really going on is it - what is happening is that Western nations are actively intervening to further their own interests and that is causing considerable extra suffering in the region. It is undoubtedly true to say that the conflict would exist because of the progress of secular values in the region on their own terms - but it is the cynical manipulation of those trends by the West which is throwing considerable oil on the fire.

Br Cornelius

I don't think it's an 'either/or' situation, there is more nuance and complexity to it than that. It is rather like a layered situation that loops in on itself, and in which every factor and layer feeds the other.

A revivalistic movement, and the rise of extremist ideologies did eventually provide a fertile ground for regional AND foreign powers (Western included) to cultivate and exploit; and they did...to the hilt!

Edited by meryt-tetisheri
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Uncle Sam

I am starting to think... for any way Muslims gain an stable government is through dictatorship or monarchy, there is no place for democracy in arab nations. Seems they always vote in a dictator or monarchy type government. Those governments seem to keep the Terrorists and Muslims hatred towards jews under control, but once there is a power vacuum, the terrorists rise their ugly heads and throw the world into chaos. Sects fight each other, terrorists attack other nations, any other religious people are ran out of the country, and many untold deaths of thousands of people at the hands of extremists.

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Br Cornelius

I am starting to think... for any way Muslims gain an stable government is through dictatorship or monarchy, there is no place for democracy in arab nations. Seems they always vote in a dictator or monarchy type government. Those governments seem to keep the Terrorists and Muslims hatred towards jews under control, but once there is a power vacuum, the terrorists rise their ugly heads and throw the world into chaos. Sects fight each other, terrorists attack other nations, any other religious people are ran out of the country, and many untold deaths of thousands of people at the hands of extremists.

They are just a little behind the West - as we did much the same until very recently.

Fundamentally it is a bad mistake to extrapolate that Muslim countries are in some way fundamentally different to us in the West.

Projecting otherness onto others in the first step in dehumanising the other and then it becomes easy to sell the idea that to intervene with deadly force is acceptable. Every Colonialist has applied the same progression to justify their adventurism.

Br Cornelius

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and then

They are just a little behind the West - as we did much the same until very recently.

Fundamentally it is a bad mistake to extrapolate that Muslim countries are in some way fundamentally different to us in the West.

Projecting otherness onto others in the first step in dehumanising the other and then it becomes easy to sell the idea that to intervene with deadly force is acceptable. Every Colonialist has applied the same progression to justify their adventurism.

Br Cornelius

I agree that the human beings are the same everywhere. I absolutely reject the comparison that countries ruled by Islam are on a similar path of evolution to western nations. How can they evolve when they are being governed by religious thought which is unchanging? "Intervening" in their business is wrong, I'd agree, so long as they haven't decided to make it their business to work toward proselytizing the west. Edited by and then

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RoofGardener

They are just a little behind the West - as we did much the same until very recently.

Fundamentally it is a bad mistake to extrapolate that Muslim countries are in some way fundamentally different to us in the West.

Projecting otherness onto others in the first step in dehumanising the other and then it becomes easy to sell the idea that to intervene with deadly force is acceptable. Every Colonialist has applied the same progression to justify their adventurism.

Br Cornelius

BrC, I think you are spot-on when you say that "otherness" is - and has been - a recipe for dehumanisation. This is amply illustrated by the 'nicknames' for our enemies in every war ever fought.

However, I think you are making a very dangerous mis-extrapolation when you apply that to Islam.

I appreciate that it is "politically incorrect" to say this, but Islam IS "other" .. it is like no system before, or since.

Muslim countries ARE different, in that - to one extent or the other - they Integrate Islam into their governmental and jurisprudence systems. Which... of course... is what Islam is all about. The prophet intended Islam to be a political, civic, and military system, as much as a religious observance.

Far from being a "fundamental mistake" to assume that Muslim countries are "fundamentally different" to "us in the West", I would suggest that it is the opposite. It is catastrophic - and extremely dangerous - to assume that they are "like us".

They are not.

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Yamato

Democratically elected leaders ?

Iraq: Dictator

Jordan: Monarchy

Saudi Arabia: Monarchy

Lebanon: Syrian Client state until 2005. Subsequently: Confessionalist Parliamentary theocracy. (e.g. representation based on religious quotas)

Syria: formally Dictatorship, now No Overall Control.

Kuwait: Emirate (monarchy)

Oman: Sultanate (absolute monarchy)

Bahrain: Monarchy

United Arab Emirates: Federation of Emirs under central monarch.

Quatar: Absolute monarchy

Yemen: Kleptocracy

Israel: Parliamentary Democracy with proportional representation.

Remind me again Yamato, WHICH "democratically elected" leaders did we overthrow ?

Yes, democratically elected leaders. Why are you posting this bureaucratically correct favorites list of terrible leadership to me of all people? Really? What sensible policies we've been busy with are you suggesting here for any of these places? What quality of this overall disaster of a status quo between the US and the Middle East is so attractive to you? You just stepped in this way too far, and you're going to get dirty now, bud.

Let's have some history that's actually relevant to me, and that I'm actually responsible for by extension of my parent and grandparent taxpayers. Our interventionism in the Middle East started in the 1950s because of the desire to control oil resources, when we go back to the beginnings of of our "culture" in the region as it's being used as some kind of explanatory excuse here, you have to start with the history between Iran and the United States in 1953. You Brits had your greasy noses in the Middle East for far longer than that, but since that's your responsibility, I'll let people keep their own. But we will discuss that history here since you've asked about my reference.

US "culture" in the Middle East:

http://en.wikipedia....oup_d'état

When democracies get overthrown, as they did in Pakistan, what planet do you people live on to think that supporting these dictatorships is "western culture"?

"Commerce with All Nations; Alliance with None, should be our motto." ~ Thomas Jefferson

There's my "culture", people.

Edited by Yamato
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RoofGardener

Ah right... OK.

So.. you're entire point was just about ONE nation, which isn't even in the Middle East ?

Yeah.. OK.. fair point.

So ONE intervention in ONE nation with a SHIA ISLAM government, is responsible for all of the subsequent terror attacks by a SUNNI terrorist alignment ?

Is that REALLY what you are proposing ?

Yeah, really America's fault :P

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Yamato

No it's not America's fault, it's the US government's fault. I'm an American btw. When we support dictators in the Middle East we make democratic reforms there less likely. Should I even have to say this?

You've agreed with 'and then' so many times, you really are his shadow on this forum. He agrees with everything you say behind a litany of religious reasoning. And you're about 99.9% correlated in agreement with every idea he comes up with. You look like identical twins every time I picture you two. The problem is religion has absolutely nothing to do with our government's policy in the Middle East. Can we have at least a little bit of separation of church and state here? Which goes to show how out of touch with reality he is. It doesn't even really matter to him what the government's interests actually are, he just agrees with the entire load of it because "Christian Zionism". He just uses religion to excuse the State. How "American culture" is that? So I do not take you as someone having knowledge about the US's history in the Middle East when you're 99% correlated with the religion guy.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

No, they hate our freedoms!! It was nothing at all to do with anything the West may have done, people have demonstrated that very conclusively. :innocent:

ROFLMAO!! :clap: Would you believe I have a brother that believes that swill?? I *swear*!!

If you ever want to see a case of "News by Jews" affect American thinking, this is a classic - millions of DUPES believe it!

It's so self-serving to Americans, "they be JEALOUS Of us", so it feels good to believe it. Works like a charm eh?

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Other than all the oil money which so richly lavished very selective peoples' lives over there, is it our culture to overthrow democratically elected leaders and replace them with dictator puppets?

You're hitting a key point here, the wealth only came in to a a select group of people.

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Yamato

That's essentially what they're saying here. They hate us for our freedom.

As much as that has anything to do with anything, if someone else doesn't want to trade with you, don't trade with them! How difficult that is, for some people.

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Yamato

You're hitting a key point here, the wealth only came in to a a select group of people.

Yeah all those democratically elected leaders, right? Maybe if the White House was 500,000 square feet they'd get a clue what they're supporting.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Democratically elected leaders ?

Iraq: Dictator

Jordan: Monarchy

Saudi Arabia: Monarchy

Lebanon: Syrian Client state until 2005. Subsequently: Confessionalist Parliamentary theocracy. (e.g. representation based on religious quotas)

Syria: formally Dictatorship, now No Overall Control.

Kuwait: Emirate (monarchy)

Oman: Sultanate (absolute monarchy)

Bahrain: Monarchy

United Arab Emirates: Federation of Emirs under central monarch.

Quatar: Absolute monarchy

Yemen: Kleptocracy

Israel: Parliamentary Democracy with proportional representation.

Remind me again Yamato, WHICH "democratically elected" leaders did we overthrow ?

wrong.

Any nation that does not allow natives of the land, based on religion/ethnicity, to vote, is not a democracy, it is a THUG-ocracy

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Earl.Of.Trumps

I am starting to think... for any way Muslims gain an stable government is through dictatorship or monarchy, there is no place for democracy in arab nations.

With respect to the fact that you did say "Arab", because I know Iranians are Persians, not Arab, however:

Iran was a flourishing democracy until CIA/MI6 found a way to expunge the democratically elected leader and replace him him with a string of Shahs, starting first with Mohammad-Reza Shah Pahlavi.

http://en.wikipedia....an_coup_d'état

The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup, was the overthrow of the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran Mohammad Mosaddegh on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United Kingdom (under the name 'Operation Boot') and the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project).[3]

Sorry, my friend, The United States and England could give a crap less about stabilizing the region with "democracy". They clearly have other fish to fry, and this particular covert action did much to make peoples in the ME despise The US, UK, *and* democracy.

If you wish to make excuses for the pair of them please save the effort.

Seems they always vote in a dictator or monarchy type government. Those governments seem to keep the Terrorists and Muslims hatred towards jews under control, but once there is a power vacuum, the terrorists rise their ugly heads and throw the world into chaos. Sects fight each other, terrorists attack other nations, any other religious people are ran out of the country, and many untold deaths of thousands of people at the hands of extremists.

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Yamato

wrong.

Any nation that does not allow natives of the land, based on religion/ethnicity, to vote, is not a democracy, it is a THUG-ocracy

If US culture had anything to do with this, it's that we would have exported Jim Crow to Israel.

This is obsolete inhumanity. We have to go back a hundred or hundreds of years to find behavior in our culture that matches Israel's today. If you look at the violent episodes in Gaza it looks like a goddamned EKG readout.

The Last Colony needs to heel.

The US has the leverage to change Israel's policies virtually overnight. But we sit in amoral acquiescence to yet another slaughter. And so, American Zionist apologists are really the worst of the worst. All the power in the world to stop the violence and we sit and let these good people die. I don't know how our policymakers can even go to sleep at night or look in a mirror the next morning It's pure evil that we're opposing here, and it's like people don't even know it.

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Ogbin

Yamato,

funny how you should speak of violence and sitting around and letting good people die by what you call pure evil in a thread about ISIS persecuting christians in Syria/Iraq.. Just read this today on the Hal lindsey Report, " Congressman Frank Wolf, R-Va., told congress Iraqi christians are facing a 'genocide' and horrific crimes against humanity." The Palestinians are letting Hamas launch rockets from their homes. These Christians have done nothing wrong at all and are being slaughtered.

What say you?

Edited by Ogbin
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