Russia commits act of war.

[Helen of Annoy]

what would you like to see happen, what Action do you want Obama to take? because Obama along with the UK wanted tougher sanctions but the EU France and Germany refused and wouldn't agree because of their interests German energy & exports and French ship building contracts. so a watered down version was agreed and its done nothing.

The EU are dragging their heels. If it wasnt for Obama (America) the Ruskies would have invaded eastern Ukraine, and sent shock waves across europe as the EU stand there open mouthed paralysed by fear. Its thanks to Obama (USA) stance that made the Russians think twice and instead are fighting a proxy war. lets remember the Russians had 120,000 soldiers and equipment ready to invade eastern Ukraine. if Obama was all talk they'd have crossed the border.

Thank God for Obama and the United States of America. someone with balls to take the tough line and stand toe to toe with any threatening nation on this earth. regardless of who they are. that cannot be said about the EU. Germany and France. at least the UK is backing Americas tough approach. The mighty EU caused the problem its about time they stood up and where counted. continually being told on here the EU is a global power, economically strong well wield that power and put Putin's Russia back in their box.

And just to think, a country split east/west, hundreds dead, Airliner shot down 290'odd killed and a diplomatic crisis between proper military powers and it all started with a damn EU association agreement. so much for the EU's Nobel peace prize. what a crock of ****.

Oh, please... it started with hysteric Russian reaction to legitimate Ukrainian revolt after Yanukovich wiped his fat ass with EU association agreement, not with EU agreement per se.

EU really does not mean the same to you and to me. It means even more to an Ukrainian because they were even more isolated.

It’s very important for most of us to return to Europe. When my country finally, hallelujah, joined EU I had a feeling that at least a portion of injustice was set right at last.

[Just Dave]

I guess US journalists know more than we, here in europe... that "Russian shooting into Ukraine" part is not confirmed yet.. but this news source is saying like it really happened .. Really?

[Just Dave]

Aaaaah nevermind

Edited July 25, 2014 by SurgeTechnologies

[Helen of Annoy]

It's raining angry trolls today

[Duke Wellington]

Oh, please... it started with hysteric Russian reaction to legitimate Ukrainian revolt after Yanukovich wiped his fat ass with EU association agreement, not with EU agreement per se.

EU really does not mean the same to you and to me. It means even more to an Ukrainian because they were even more isolated.

It’s very important for most of us to return to Europe. When my country finally, hallelujah, joined EU I had a feeling that at least a portion of injustice was set right at last.

Shoudln't we respect the rights of all people?

In Ukraine there are two sides not one. You can't force both to remain together if they have their hearts set on different things. Putting both sides propaganda aside the best for the people living in Ukraine needs to be considered. That isnt a civil war that results in 100,000 dead.

The politicians should zip it and let the people split so both sides get what they want.

[Border Collie]

http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/22714

That is Russia`s opinion and it sounds more realistic than what i hear from you.

I find it hard to believe that anyone is naive enough to believe that BS. Have you studied no history at all? Or are you just trolling this thread?

[danielost]

It sounds like Europe us going to repeat the start of world war 2.

[coolguy]

We should stay out of it get them kill each other why does America have to stick there nose in everybody's wars lol

[Space Commander Travis]

It's raining angry trolls today

"troll = Anyone who doesn't agree with me", would that be?

[+Hammerclaw]

"However much we may sympathize with a small nation confronted by a big and powerful neighbor, we can not in all circumstances undertake to involve the whole British Empire in a war simply on her account......How horrible, fantastic incredible, it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks because of a quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we know nothing. Neville Chamberlain

Edited July 26, 2014 by John Wesley Boyd

[Space Commander Travis]

Bing! Ten Godwin points for invoking the spectre of Adolf. Yes, that's right, in the 14 years that he's been in power in some capacity or other, Vlad hasn't stopped in his rapacious obsession with swallowing up plucky smaller nations and making himself the Tyrant of Europe.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Admiral Rhubarb

[Helen of Annoy]

Shoudln't we respect the rights of all people?

In Ukraine there are two sides not one. You can't force both to remain together if they have their hearts set on different things. Putting both sides propaganda aside the best for the people living in Ukraine needs to be considered. That isnt a civil war that results in 100,000 dead.

The politicians should zip it and let the people split so both sides get what they want.

And what do you think, who respects the rights of all people and who tramples them with utter despise?

Ukraine wants to join EU and contrary to what Kremlin told you, every citizen is equal. They don’t really split ethnic hairs, firstly because sane portion of ethnic Russians are just Ukrainians of Russian descend. Secondly, because EU insists on all derivations of human rights to (for oldfashioned folks such as myself) almost silly extent.

On the other side you have rabid, professional turbo-Russian Russians, who made business out of their ethnicity. They filled first mass graves with people who were not Orthodox, let alone what chance would complete non-Russian or godforbid non-Slav stand.

No, they are not the same.

(Just like “my” war was not a civil war between “ah, they’re all the same savages”. We fought for our freedom, our right to choose Europe over eastern totalitarianism, they fought to keep their hegemony and when it was obvious they’ll lose it, they were trying to simply destroy and kill as much as they could. Resemblance to Russian destructive tactics in Ukraine is heartbreaking.)

Ukraine is sovereign country that is facing expansionist Russian aggression. Russians are still welcome and I’m sure they always will be, it’s the Kremlin-organised, instigated and armed terrorists that are not.

Russia is also a sovereign country that should be, by common sense, Ukraine’s best friend, partner and ally. But, tragically, current power structures in Russia were blinded with enormous wealth they accumulated, they lost touch with reality and they now believe they’re immortal and free to be immoral. They can’t see they’re destroying their country too by trying to inflate it into renewed Russian empire.

As I said, it is heartbreaking.

All those good people of any ethnicity, caught in escalating war because idiots with inferiority complex can’t have big enough car and big enough empire.

So, yes, every sane person in both Ukraine and Russia should get what they want, and that’s peace and prosperity.

The best way to ensure they’ll never have it is to find excuses for Russian imperialist expansion.

Politicians zipping up would throw us into anarchy instantly. Being disgusted with current politicians everywhere is justified, but that we can change only by demanding better from them and not agreeing to play their greed games. Not by bowing to Russians, just because they're seemingly against your own government.

This world is in **** because we mostly don't want justice, we want to be one of those on the top.

Change yourself first, instead of childish desire for overnight anarchist miracle work personally on slow but steady change for the better.

[Helen of Annoy]

"troll = Anyone who doesn't agree with me", would that be?

Obviously not.

Others noticed too that the troll is trolling. Or maybe the kid truly is a phsycho, so I hope he's just juvenile troll.

I guess you must be hoping he's just a troll too, because he leaves eerily bad impression. If that's what you suggest as the alternative to the West... I rest my case.

And then you.

For example, you're not a troll. You just think too high of your intellectualistic approach to everyday bloodshed, probably because the sheer luck of not being one of us exposed to wonders of soviet legacy makes you believe you're better than us.

Well, you're not.

You’re even impaired with your better luck because you have no concept of what you’re actually doing.

That, what is a chance to you to prove your abstract political points is the actual death for us.

Since you have the capacity to think about that, please do just that.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Deleted]

It is not true that all wanted to join the EU

http://en.wikipedia....date_okruhs.png

As for Ukrain's history.

http://en.wikipedia....tory_of_Ukraine

If the Ukraine politicians wanted peace for their people they would have chosen a strategy which makes them into some kind of bridge between the West and the East. They could have forged economical agreements with the EU as well as with Russia, they could have refused to join the NATO and instead picked a neutral way, which would do their geopolical position more justice.

But Ukraine's problem is that their presidents are all corrupt, they are all oligarchs which don't have the well-beeing of their people in mind. They are only concerned with their personal wealth and for that they either try to fully submit to Russia or the EU.

edit: If they would have picked that way, they could have benefited from the EU and the EEU, while remaining independent and neutral.

Edited July 26, 2014 by hellwyr

[danielost]

From your link.

A 2010 study by the Institute of Social and Political Psychology of Ukraine found that in general, Yulia Tymoshenko supporters are more optimistic compared with Viktor Yanukovych supporters. 46 percent of the Tymoshenko’s backers expect improvement in their well-being in the next year compared to 30 percent for Yanukovych.[20]

You will found at least two sides of everything.

[Space Commander Travis]

O

Obviously not.

Others noticed too that the troll is trolling. Or maybe the kid truly is a phsycho, so I hope he's just juvenile troll.

I guess you must be hoping he's just a troll too, because he leaves eerily bad impression. If that's what you suggest as the alternative to the West... I rest my case.

And then you.

For example, you're not a troll. You just think too high of your intellectualistic approach to everyday bloodshed, probably because the sheer luck of not being one of us exposed to wonders of soviet legacy makes you believe you're better than us.

Well, you're not.

You’re even impaired with your better luck because you have no concept of what you’re actually doing.

That, what is a chance to you to prove your abstract political points is the actual death for us.

Since you have the capacity to think about that, please do just that.

And i'm the one that thinks too highly of myself? Thank you for that psychological analysis, Dr. Freud.

So you're saying that only people actually threatened with invasion at any moment by the great bogey Putin have any right to make any comment? And you consider yourself to be one of them? The great monster is not going to stop until he's swallowed up all of the former Yugoslavia? What would be his reason for doing that? To give him access to the Mediterranean without having to go through the Dardanelles? Well, there might be some logic to that, but it really is heading into the realms of pure paranoia. But then, you do seem to be taking the position that anyone who doesn't automatically assume that Putin wants to create a new Russian Empire that goes much further than the USSR ever did is a Russian agent, so i'm not sure how easy it is to argue from any rational position.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Admiral Rhubarb

[Deleted]

From your link.

A 2010 study by the Institute of Social and Political Psychology of Ukraine found that in general, Yulia Tymoshenko supporters are more optimistic compared with Viktor Yanukovych supporters. 46 percent of the Tymoshenko’s backers expect improvement in their well-being in the next year compared to 30 percent for Yanukovych.[20]

You will found at least two sides of everything.

So what? I don`t know what you are trying to say? They are both oligarchs? And 30 to 45 percent in 2010.. as we both know 2012 had a different outcome.

Edited July 26, 2014 by hellwyr

[Duke Wellington]

And what do you think, who respects the rights of all people and who tramples them with utter despise?

There are two sides in the conflict who each see the other as doing that.

Ukraine wants to join EU and contrary to what Kremlin told you, every citizen is equal.

That comment is wrong. There are some Ukranians that want to join the EU and some that want to remain in the Russian sphere of influence. Stepping back as a neutral spectator then the wants of both sides are equally valid.

Just like “my” war was not a civil war between “ah, they’re all the same savages”. We fought for our freedom, our right to choose Europe over eastern totalitarianism, they fought to keep their hegemony and when it was obvious they’ll lose it, they were trying to simply destroy and kill as much as they could. Resemblance to Russian destructive tactics in Ukraine is heartbreaking.

You wanted the EU and they didnt. Instead of respecting each others wants you guys went to war. You could have had a peaceful divorce instead of trying to impose national unity which never succeeds when the two sides want drastically different things.

Ukraine is sovereign country that is facing expansionist Russian aggression. Russians are still welcome and I’m sure they always will be, it’s the Kremlin-organised, instigated and armed terrorists that are not. Russia is also a sovereign country that should be, by common sense, Ukraine’s best friend, partner and ally. But, tragically, current power structures in Russia were blinded with enormous wealth they accumulated, they lost touch with reality and they now believe they’re immortal and free to be immoral. They can’t see they’re destroying their country too by trying to inflate it into renewed Russian empire.

Propaganda works both ways.

All those good people of any ethnicity, caught in escalating war because idiots with inferiority complex can’t have big enough car and big enough empire. So, yes, every sane person in both Ukraine and Russia should get what they want, and that’s peace and prosperity.

The best way to ensure they’ll never have it is to find excuses for Russian imperialist expansion.[

Something we agree on. Politicians cause wars and the people are the ones who get left to fight them. However I disagree with your 'Russian imperialist expansion' as you are blinding youself to how the opposing side see the conflict. A peaceful split is easy to achieve, there is no need for 1000s to die.

Nato should force each side to settle and divorce peacefully. It wont happen though because too many of the Nato members see the dispute in Ukraine as a way to drive forward EU expansion, and they want the whole lot not half.

Edited July 26, 2014 by RabidMongoose

[keithisco]

It is not true that all wanted to join the EU

http://en.wikipedia....date_okruhs.png

As for Ukrain's history.

http://en.wikipedia....tory_of_Ukraine

If the Ukraine politicians wanted peace for their people they would have chosen a strategy which makes them into some kind of bridge between the West and the East. They could have forged economical agreements with the EU as well as with Russia, they could have refused to join the NATO and instead picked a neutral way, which would do their geopolical position more justice.

But Ukraine's problem is that their presidents are all corrupt, they are all oligarchs which don't have the well-beeing of their people in mind. They are only concerned with their personal wealth and for that they either try to fully submit to Russia or the EU.

edit: If they would have picked that way, they could have benefited from the EU and the EEU, while remaining independent and neutral.

Ukraine is not a member of NATO...

[keithisco]

That comment is wrong. There are some Ukranians that want to join the EU and some that want to remain in the Russian sphere of influence. Stepping back as a neutral spectator then 1.the wants of both sides are equally valid.

You wanted the EU and they didnt. Instead of respecting each others wants you guys went to war. 2.You could have had a peaceful divorce instead of trying to impose national unity which never succeeds when the two sides want drastically different things.

3.Nato should force each side to settle and divorce peacefully. It wont happen though because too many of the Nato members see the dispute in Ukraine as a way to drive forward EU expansion, and they want the whole lot not half.

To address the comments that I have numbered above:

1. The Constitution of the Ukraine allows for areas to cede from the nation through negotiation, discussion, and free elections without the threat of violence. This option, the peaceful option, was simply ignored in Crimea, and is being ignored in Eastern Ukraine. The mechanism is there for peaceful segregation - I suspect that the required referendum to make it binding under the Ukraine Constitution, is not wanted by the violent thugs .The usual reason for this, is that they believe that they would lose a properly implemented referendum. There can be no other reason

2. How do you substantiate your claim that Croatia could have had a "peaceful divorce"? Were you not born when the Ethnic Cleansing started and was reported worldwide?? It was ALL about Ethnic Cleansing which is NOT a valid Political position to hold!

3. Look up the Rules of Engagement for NATO, and make a learned post

Your Naïveté in the realm of international politics is truly astonishing!!.

[Helen of Annoy]

OAnd i'm the one that thinks too highly of myself? Thank you for that psychological analysis, Dr. Freud.

So you're saying that only people actually threatened with invasion at any moment by the great bogey Putin have any right to make any comment? And you consider yourself to be one of them? The great monster is not going to stop until he's swallowed up all of the former Yugoslavia? What would be his reason for doing that? To give him access to the Mediterranean without having to go through the Dardanelles? Well, there might be some logic to that, but it really is heading into the realms of pure paranoia. But then, you do seem to be taking the position that anyone who doesn't automatically assume that Putin wants to create a new Russian Empire that goes much further than the USSR ever did is a Russian agent, so i'm not sure how easy it is to argue from any rational position.

You’re welcome. It was pure pleasure to stick a mirror in front of your nose.

I withdrew my assessment that you’re capable of thinking about this situation. You’re obviously too much in love with your Putin who wouldn’t – in your naive understanding – reach any further than former USSR.

It actually sounded like you don’t see anything wrong in restoring USSR, that giant prison of a state.

Newsflash for you: sovereign countries once occupied by soviets, are sovereign again and even if your boss manages to occupy them again, it won’t last forever.

Is it that hard to understand the simple fact that no one, from Estonia to Ukraine, wants to get Russified?

You can pack your bags and move to Russia, who’s stopping you? Wouldn’t that be immensely more rational than moving Russia into tens of millions of homes that are perfectly happy with their own identity and sovereignty?

There are two sides in the conflict who each see the other as doing that.

That comment is wrong. There are some Ukranians that want to join the EU and some that want to remain in the Russian sphere of influence. Stepping back as a neutral spectator then the wants of both sides are equally valid.

You wanted the EU and they didnt. Instead of respecting each others wants you guys went to war. You could have had a peaceful divorce instead of trying to impose national unity which never succeeds when the two sides want drastically different things.

Imposing national unity is precisely what was wrong about ex-Yu. They suppressed true national identities and were trying to forcefully substitute them with artificial Yugoslavian identity, that was really only an euphemism for Serbian identity.

The same was USSR, only with Russian instead of Serbian.

Propaganda works both ways.

No, it doesn’t.

Your propaganda is not working at all, the rest of the (sane) world is laughing at you. Scornfully.

Something we agree on. Politicians cause wars and the people are the ones who get left to fight them. However I disagree with your 'Russian imperialist expansion' as you are blinding youself to how the opposing side see the conflict. A peaceful split is easy to achieve, there is no need for 1000s to die.

Nato should force each side to settle and divorce peacefully. It wont happen though because too many of the Nato members see the dispute in Ukraine as a way to drive forward EU expansion, and they want the whole lot not half.

The opposing side is perfectly aware it’s their imperialist expansion. They’re not as naive as their volunteers in the West are.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Deleted]

Ukraine is not a member of NATO...

You don`say, but since 2004 they are working towards becoming a member.

@helen

"

Propaganda works both ways.

No, it doesn’t.

Your propaganda is not working at all, the rest of the (sane) world is laughing at you. Scornfully."

How old are you ten?

Edited July 26, 2014 by hellwyr

[Helen of Annoy]

You don`say, but since 2004 they are working towards becoming a member.

@helen

"

Propaganda works both ways.

No, it doesn’t.

Your propaganda is not working at all, the rest of the (sane) world is laughing at you. Scornfully."

How old are you ten?

No, I’m eleven, that’s why I can see through your pathetic attempts of propaganda.

If I was ten, maybe I’d swallow any of skaskas you’re spreading around so desperately, to the grim amusement of people with morbid sense of humour.

I see your spelling improved. Now learn to quote and this conversation won’t be a complete waste of time.

[keithisco]

1. You don`say, but since 2004 they are working towards becoming a member.

@helen

"

Propaganda works both ways.

No, it doesn’t.

2.Your propaganda is not working at all, the rest of the (sane) world is laughing at you. Scornfully."

3. How old are you ten?

1. I do say so, Ukraine is not a member of NATO - so totally lose that idea.

2. I think Helen has got it right -- the rest of the western world is horrified at what Russia is attempting to do in de-stabilising a Sovereign nation.

3. A childish and pathetic remark

[Deleted]

No, I’m eleven, that’s why I can see through your pathetic attempts of propaganda.

If I was ten, maybe I’d swallow any of skaskas you’re spreading around so desperately, to the grim amusement of people with morbid sense of humour.

I see your spelling improved. Now learn to quote and this conversation won’t be a complete waste of time.

Well I just lowered myself to your level, but I dont intend to remain at that level, or else I am afraid I will die of stupidity.