Russia commits act of war.

[Guest]

Can anyone explain why the plane was diverted into a combat zone from a safe flight path and escorted there by two Kiev fighter planes ?

Can anyone also explain why Kiev has not released the ATC data to the international investigation team ?

So many questions which are very inconvenient for Kiev to answer, and those two are just the tip of the iceberg.

Br Cornelius

[questionmark]

Can anyone explain why the plane was diverted into a combat zone from a safe flight path and escorted there by two Kiev fighter planes ?

Can anyone also explain why Kiev has not released the ATC data to the international investigation team ?

So many questions which are very inconvenient for Kiev to answer, and those two are just the tip of the iceberg.

Br Cornelius

Before claiming that I would check with the statement of Eurocontrol (see European Ground Zero on this forum), they claim that the route was planned as was. Besides that it was one of half a dozen airliners that flew over the area that day... and we have yet to finds the Antonov the rebels claim to have shot down.

Edit, just checked it and found that the route they took is air corridor L830 and there that goes over near Donezk, besides not being claimed as war area over Level 30 by none of the conflict parties.

Edited July 30, 2014 by questionmark

[stevewinn]

Can anyone explain why the plane was diverted into a combat zone from a safe flight path and escorted there by two Kiev fighter planes ?

Can anyone also explain why Kiev has not released the ATC data to the international investigation team ?

So many questions which are very inconvenient for Kiev to answer, and those two are just the tip of the iceberg.

Br Cornelius

im surprised at you Br, i thought you'd have been siding with the West, America says its got evidence of were the missile was fired from. why dont you believe the evidence? by the way did they ever find that WMD in Iraq?

[Helen of Annoy]

Your missing my point completely. the danger for NATO is NATO's credibility and that's much more important than Ukraine. - It's worth reminding ourselves Ukraine is not part of NATO. So its completely fine for NATO to increase defence in neighbouring NATO countries as a reassurance. As for stopping Russia who said? that should be done by NATO? It's not NATO's responsibility it should be left to the UN. but increasingly NATO is suffering from identity crisis and mission creep at some point NATO's resolve will be tested and this is the part im worried about because i cannot see the major powers going to full out war for one of the minnow countries who shouldn't have been allowed to join NATO in the first place - by allowing them to join - at that moment the credibility of NATO was put on the line, and this is when the hard questions are asked, are we truly prepared to potentially lose everything for the defence of Latvia? We entered two world wars for national interests. i fail to see the national interest at present.

I think were all agreed or are we? that last thing we want is a war with Russia? The way things are going with sanctions which are ever increasing and continually then at some point they'll bite and surely a red line will be crossed for Russia, Russia will either start flexing her muscle in different regions around the world or even worse see the tougher sanctions as an act of War and at that point all bets are off. Lets not push Russia past the point of no return. I think that point is way off in the distance but the more we increase our presence near the Russian border the more chance of a genuine mistake could happen which flips the whole thing into something of nightmares.

So you do want NATO but not with any risk involved?

For what do you want it then? Parades?

Yeah, me too, but we can't have it risk-free.

What is the difference if it’s Latvia or, say, France that is attacked?

Are Latvians a currency again? Is the part of my house closer to the street less mine than the rest? Are smaller rooms of the same house open to burglars or squatters, as long as the damn kitchen is safe? What makes you think the same thief that broke in the toilet won’t raid the kitchen too?

(Sorry, Latvia, you’re not the toilet, I’ll take that honour. You can be broom closet under the stairs, totally close to the entrance.)

Russia was not pushed by anyone so far (except in their own propaganda stunts and totally soviet-like blaming the victim). I agree it would be idiotic to accept their chest and civilian-thumping.

Very carefully balanced measures, very closely monitored results, it has started to happen. That's the only sane way out of this and it requires integrity and brains. Not doing anything Russia would read as sign of not just weakness but surrender. And you don't want to surrender to them.

when was the last NATO-Russian stand off Kosovo? Syria maybe?

*jumps in the chair a little*

Don’t make me spill any more bile.

Let’s pretend, for this occasion, that Kosovo and Prishtina airport episode never happened.

[Helen of Annoy]

im surprised at you Br, i thought you'd have been siding with the West, America says its got evidence of were the missile was fired from. why dont you believe the evidence? by the way did they ever find that WMD in Iraq?

Yep, they've found it. In Syria. Assad is using it as we speak.

[Guest]

Yep, they've found it. In Syria. Assad is using it as we speak.

Not even remotely funny or true.

Syria had its own weapons.

Br Cornelius

[stevewinn]

So you do want NATO but not with any risk involved?

For what do you want it then? Parades?

Yeah, me too, but we can't have it risk-free.

What is the difference if it’s Latvia or, say, France that is attacked?

Are Latvians a currency again? Is the part of my house closer to the street less mine than the rest? Are smaller rooms of the same house open to burglars or squatters, as long as the damn kitchen is safe? What makes you think the same thief that broke in the toilet won’t raid the kitchen too?

(Sorry, Latvia, you’re not the toilet, I’ll take that honour. You can be broom closet under the stairs, totally close to the entrance.)

Russia was not pushed by anyone so far (except in their own propaganda stunts and totally soviet-like blaming the victim). I agree it would be idiotic to accept their chest and civilian-thumping.

Very carefully balanced measures, very closely monitored results, it has started to happen. That's the only sane way out of this and it requires integrity and brains. Not doing anything Russia would read as sign of not just weakness but surrender. And you don't want to surrender to them.

*jumps in the chair a little*

Don’t make me spill any more bile.

Let’s pretend, for this occasion, that Kosovo and Prishtina airport episode never happened.

I want NATO to remain a credible force.in your question what's the difference between France and Latvia the difference is NATO would vote in favour of Action under article 5 for France i doubt they'd do the same for Latvia. and if they don't then NATO as lost its credibility and that's the massive danger.

The United Kingdom along with the United States of America signed an agreement along with Russia that if Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons stockpile they'd secure Ukraine's territorial integrity from attack or aggression. remind me again, Crimea. now part of the Russian Federation. that worked then.

[Guest]

Is this true or not ?
Where are the ATC tapes.

[media=]

Social media been the only piece of evidenced the US is prepared to stand behind. Credible ??

Kiev has strong motive here, they are losing on the ground and need backing to secure their territory - the only show in town is NATO who have no credible reason to commit until now.

Br Cornelius Edited July 30, 2014 by Guest

[questionmark]

[media=]

[/media]

Is this true or not ?

Where are the ATC tapes.

Br Cornelius

Kiev never had the recorders and all communications between Flight Control and cockpit are on them, so no matter where the tapes of the towers are (which in the East generally ends with the explanation that they had no money to buy any, no matter if Ukraine or Russia and that is sadly the truth) we will know what happened. If there was a funny communication it would have been discovered by now by the British crash investigators who will soon enough release the transcript (I guess it is just fair that the Dutch, in charge of the investigation, get to study them first). As far as we know so far those thingies were only in the hands of the rebels and the Russians before. So if there is any tampering (of which we have no evidence so far) it could only have been done by those two.

[Helen of Annoy]

Not even remotely funny or true.

Syria had its own weapons.

Br Cornelius

I wasn't making a joke. Assad took large though exactly undetermined portion of Iraq's WMDs. Former Yugoslavia sold a lot of deadly stuff to Iraq, from custom-made cannon parts to god knows what, that's traceable, only probably would involve the West too, since Iraq was in war with Iran etc. etc.

Thousands of Kurds in northern Iraq didn't poison themselves, unless you wish to believe it was a flase flag too?

BTW, "genuine" audio from the cockpit, not at all faked by Russians, was expected and laughed at in advance. You have to keep the sense of morbid humour, or die from sadness.

[+and-then]

Is this true or not ?

Where are the ATC tapes.

[media=]

Social media been the only piece of evidenced the US is prepared to stand behind. Credible ??

Kiev has strong motive here, they are losing on the ground and need backing to secure their territory - the only show in town is NATO who have no credible reason to commit until now.

Br Cornelius

Please provide a source that is saying Kiev's troops are losing. If it's true then possibly you have a little wiggle room but I have heard no such thing from anyone except you. The rebels were talking over radio bragging about shooting down an Antonov at exactly the time this craft was lost. Russians may not have pushed the button but they PROVIDED the button - and the training to use it.

[+and-then]

I wasn't making a joke. Assad took large though exactly undetermined portion of Iraq's WMDs. Former Yugoslavia sold a lot of deadly stuff to Iraq, from custom-made cannon parts to god knows what, that's traceable, only probably would involve the West too, since Iraq was in war with Iran etc. etc.

Thousands of Kurds in northern Iraq didn't poison themselves, unless you wish to believe it was a flase flag too?

BTW, "genuine" audio from the cockpit, not at all faked by Russians, was expected and laughed at in advance. You have to keep the sense of morbid humour, or die from sadness.

Yeah...no one ever answers the question of just what was in those multiple convoys of trucks that Saddam sent over the border into Syria. Furniture maybe? A few goats? It's the west's fault for not busting his azz sooner!

[Guest]

I wasn't making a joke. Assad took large though exactly undetermined portion of Iraq's WMDs. Former Yugoslavia sold a lot of deadly stuff to Iraq, from custom-made cannon parts to god knows what, that's traceable, only probably would involve the West too, since Iraq was in war with Iran etc. etc.

Thousands of Kurds in northern Iraq didn't poison themselves, unless you wish to believe it was a flase flag too?

BTW, "genuine" audio from the cockpit, not at all faked by Russians, was expected and laughed at in advance. You have to keep the sense of morbid humour, or die from sadness.

The WMD existed at one time in Iraq but were never found after they were reliquished after the first Gulf War. there is no credible evidence that they remained and were sold to Assad who was not even an allie of Iraq.

These are very poor arguments which come straight out of the NeoCon propaganda handbook.

The lack of WMD which were used to justify the second Gulf war is a fact of record at this stage.

Br Cornelius

[Helen of Annoy]

I want NATO to remain a credible force.in your question what's the difference between France and Latvia the difference is NATO would vote in favour of Action under article 5 for France i doubt they'd do the same for Latvia. and if they don't then NATO as lost its credibility and that's the massive danger.

The United Kingdom along with the United States of America signed an agreement along with Russia that if Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons stockpile they'd secure Ukraine's territorial integrity from attack or aggression. remind me again, Crimea. now part of the Russian Federation. that worked then.

I dare not ask who assured you that NATO wouldn’t do the same for all members.

Someone recognized Russian occupation of Crimea as an legal annexation? When? Where? Who?

So, no, it didn’t work. No one can escape that agreement, only use Russian occupation of Crimea as a pathetic, non-working excuse and thus lose any credibility.

[questionmark]

Please provide a source that is saying Kiev's troops are losing. If it's true then possibly you have a little wiggle room but I have heard no such thing from anyone except you. The rebels were talking over radio bragging about shooting down an Antonov at exactly the time this craft was lost. Russians may not have pushed the button but they PROVIDED the button - and the training to use it.

Where, were I the rebels I would demand my money back. To mistake a Boeing for an Antonov is quite a mistake to make.

[Guest]

The recently resigned Prime Minister says this

“The coalition has fallen apart, laws haven’t been voted on, soldiers can’t be paid, there’s no money to buy rifles, there’s no possibility to store up gas,” Yatsenyuk said. “What options do we have now?”

http://rt.com/news/175440-ukraine-parliament-collapse-crisis/

A country in crisis not able to pay its soldiers who are widely defecting to the resistance forces.

These are things which have barely received a mention in the Western media - I wonder why ?

Br Cornelius

[Helen of Annoy]

The WMD existed at one time in Iraq but were never found after they were reliquished after the first Gulf War. there is no credible evidence that they remained and were sold to Assad who was not even an allie of Iraq.

These are very poor arguments which come straight out of the NeoCon propaganda handbook.

The lack of WMD which were used to justify the second Gulf war is a fact of record at this stage.

Br Cornelius

Dead Kurds. Thousands. Families, children and their cats too, scattered, poisoned. Explain. What was it if not Saddam and nerve gas?

What more evidence do you need so you can ignore it more?

Your mother is a neo-con, I'm a lefty. But a lefty with common sense, not a stalinist or any similar pervert. You're doing the irrepairable damage to any notion of left with your peddling of Russian propaganda.

[danielost]

You know the last time Europe and america did nothing when a dictator decided to grab land we ended up in world war two. Anyone want to repeat that war. Lean nothing from history doomed to repeat it.

[Helen of Annoy]

The recently resigned Prime Minister says this

http://rt.com/news/1...ollapse-crisis/

A country in crisis not able to pay its soldiers who are widely defecting to the resistance forces.

These are things which have barely received a mention in the Western media - I wonder why ?

Br Cornelius

Baghdad Br.Cornelius.

edit: sorry, forgot to add that returning only money Yanukovich stole would improve Ukrainian finances. Not to mention the rest.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Guest]

You know the last time Europe and america did nothing when a dictator decided to grab land we ended up in world war two. Anyone want to repeat that war. Lean nothing from history doomed to repeat it.

The alternative is to support a CIA backed bunch of overt Fascists in Kiev. Hobsons choice - but the CIA made the choice of backing Fascists anyway.

Br Cornelius

[Guest]

Baghdad Br.Cornelius.

Are you deranged ?

Br Cornelius

[Helen of Annoy]

Are you deranged ?

Br Cornelius

Yes, I must be, since I'm wasting my time on... well, you described yourself with your posts.

How can you be so biased? So fanatically biased?

edit: let me answer future question in advance: sure I'm biased too, but not to the point of retardation. I also have a year under artillery fire as a damn good reason for my bias. And few more years that were not that bad, but would leave you in tears. What do you have?

Edited July 30, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[stevewinn]

I dare not ask who assured you that NATO wouldn’t do the same for all members.

Someone recognized Russian occupation of Crimea as an legal annexation? When? Where? Who?

So, no, it didn’t work. No one can escape that agreement, only use Russian occupation of Crimea as a pathetic, non-working excuse and thus lose any credibility.

That is my point all along. if NATO doesn't do for Latvia in the same way it would for France then the credibility is lost. this is what i dont want to see happen but i feel it's a real possibility. Do you think NATO would act in the same manner regardless of the member? i know this is meant to be the collective defence corner stone, but in reality do you think NATO would go to war over Latvia in the same way it would for France?

(partly copied from wiki)

As for the Russian occupation of Crimea the UK, America and Russia signed an agreement under (wiki - The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is a political agreement signed in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents. The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile between 1994 and 1996. (wiki end)

credibility for all those involved has some what been lost - don't you think? and anyone in the future who's asked to give up their nuclear stockpiles with the same assurances that Ukraine received are going to think twice.

[Guest]

Yes, I must be, since I'm wasting my time on... well, you described yourself with your posts.

How can you be so biased? So fanatically biased?

I simply see that the USA has been pumping money into the opposition for at least a decade and especially into the more extreme right wing elements.

The consequence is that the country went from reasonable stability to been utterly ****ed in little more than a few years. is there a way out ? possibly if NATO doesn't put massive troops on the ground and turn it into the new frontier of a modern cold war.

I am in no way a fan of Russia, but that doesn't make me in any way blind to the nasty covert interventions of the USA in furtherance of its own political objectives.

Br Cornelius

Edited July 30, 2014 by Guest

[Guest]

Lets face another fact - the separatists and Russia have released all data available including the black boxes in a far more timely manner than Kiev or the USA - does that look like people afraid of the truth ?

Br Cornelius