Russia commits act of war.

[Mikolaj]

Exactly as you say, there is much more to learn about history of this area and i would rather not talk about that ( only reason is that i hope and believe that future generations will 'write' much better history then those before them and i don't like going back ). For now, by my humble opinion, truth is that many people in ex Yugoslavian countries ( mainly Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia - especially in Bosnia ) are still living in the past - on the expense of those who would rather see progress and love in future. One more thing, it is hard to find unbiased source of informations.

Well to tell you the truth I know much about Croatian history. I would say more than average Croatian historian. Also I know enough of Bosnia and Serbia history. Kosovo didnt studied in details.

But still I dont know what made you smile in my previous post. I wrote just facts. That Croatian army protects Serbian minority in Kosovo.

btw I have been in all three states. Croatia is light year ahead of others two. So I wouldnt put them in the same basket at all.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Mikolaj

[Mikolaj]

Stevewin

EU have 500 millions citizens. Russia have 140 million citizens. Without USA, Dont underestimate power of EU. In fact if Poland and Ukraine have nuke they will be perfect match for Russia. Counting c.100 million citizens. And with greater motivation then Russians. So add to them just France and Russia isnt problem at all.

It isnt about Russia. Its about peace, democracy, human rights, liberty,human dignity, freedom, equality, justice and responsibility.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Mikolaj

[Helen of Annoy]

''Croatian army protects Serbian minority at Kosovo.''

Don't go there please dear, ever And thanks for this headache that i just got Do you have any idea what you talk about?

But our army is there to keep peace and protect civilians, especially those who are the minority.

When Serbian president visited Kosovo and NATO helicopter came to pick him up, he almost fainted when he saw Croatian coat of arms on it

When I heard about it, I said: Thank you, god, for that bird didn't fall down, no one would ever believe us we didn't ground him on purpose

Average Croat is very much OK with Serbs, believe it or not, as long as they are not aggressively pushing the greater serbian delusions.

Stevewin

EU have 500 millions citizens. Russia have 140 million citizens. Without USA, Dont underestimate power of EU. In fact if Poland and Ukraine have nuke they will be perfect match for Russia. Counting c.100 million citizens. And with greater motivation then Russians. So add to them just France and Russia isnt problem at all.

Steve doesn't understand what it feels like to be Pole or Ukrainian or Croat or Czech or... our history was so much different than that of UK. People who didn't grow up the way we did simply can't believe what dedication most of us have.

To Steve, it's economics and political calculation. To us, it's what we are. We survived this long because we were never giving up. Armed, unarmed, fed, hungry, cold, warm, now or in hundred years... it doesn't matter. This is the line. Come across it as a guest and we will welcome you. Come across it as an aggressor and we will toss you out or die trying. I didn't mean that as a phrase, it is literally so. I have both ancient and recent history to prove it.

It isnt about Russia. Its about peace, democracy, human rights, liberty,human dignity, freedom, equality, justice and responsibility.

Amen

Edited January 23, 2015 by Helen of Annoy

[Mikolaj]

I have nothing to add to your wonderfull post, Helen of Annoy.

[odas]

btw I have been in all three states. Croatia is light year ahead of others two. So I wouldnt put them in the same basket at all.

Well, that's what happens when you have three stooges as presidents. Add Mile Ronhil (Dodik) to it and the only way is down. Speaking for Bosnia only.

[bmk1245]

Even thou this post is from summer last year, we can clearly see the rubbish they feed to US public and all others who picks up this non/sense.. There was no evidence of any Russian invasion nor hostile fire towards Ukrainian side..

Every last bit fabricated by US and Nato Inteligence services, just to give them a reason for sanctions and military build up... this was pushed so far, that we were perhaps in the brink of a war between 2 strongest nations on this planet..

Please, spare me... There is no open Russian army invasion, thats true, but there is invasion by "volunteers"/mercenaries sponsored by Kremlin... By now "vpopuchlentzy" would have been exhausted all their bullets/mines/rockets/howitzers/tanks/etc supply. Where do they get replenished?

Second, there were several instances when Russian soldiers bragged about bombing "ukrojewbanderowtzew" by "Grad" launchers on the net (kinda funny when you don't know what geolocation means, or don't know how to turn it off).

Third, recently one of the "old soldiers" in Russia admitted recruiting and sending bunch of "volunteers" (year income in few weeks ain't that bad, isn't it) into Ukraine on the humanitarian mission.

Fourth, bunch of photos/videos from so called Donetsk/Luhansk Republics showing armament/insignias that only could be find in Russian military forces (ah, of course, all of that can be bought in the nearest mall...).

Fifth, people inquiring about details of some unmarked soldier graves in Russia are being harassed and beaten.

List goes and goes up to gazillionth point...

PS heck, NATO can withdraw forces from ME, and launch info campaign "Muslims are being killed/tortured in Russia". Let the Russkies deal with it... No wonder, back in 2013 Lavrov was p***ing his pants about NATO withdrawal from ME....

Edited January 23, 2015 by bmk1245

[Sir Smoke aLot]

Well to tell you the truth I know much about Croatian history. I would say more than average Croatian historian. Also I know enough of Bosnia and Serbia history. Kosovo didnt studied in details.

But still I dont know what made you smile in my previous post. I wrote just facts. That Croatian army protects Serbian minority in Kosovo.

btw I have been in all three states. Croatia is light year ahead of others two. So I wouldnt put them in the same basket at all.

From what i have read in your posts your knowledge, partly, comes from biased sources. But not what i would like to discuss and it is not relevant to this topic. To be a part of international peacekeeping forces and have few units of your soldiers go in areas which are in risk of conflicts or where security of civilians is not adequate - that doesn't mean that it is directly Croatian Army who protects Serbian people in Kosovo. Yes, there are soldiers but it has reasons. You know that Bosnia have/had soldiers in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.? As part of international peacekeeping forces, its not Bosnia and its army which has anything to do directly with situation in countries where our soldiers are sent. Its just not same thing. SO, can i say Bosnia protects Iraq people - by having its people work all sorts of jobs in army basses ( cooking, driving... Mainly, among other things )?

As for Croatia, now part of EU it is not only light year ahead - when it comes to fighting corruption and having stable government which strives for goal of having strong Croatia - it is ahead by ten light years ( when compared to Bosnia ). As @Odas have mentioned to you - we have people who care for personal interests and build politics based on events from '90s, here in Bosnia. It's not only mile ronhill, every ethnic group here is robbed by their representatives but lack of education and care for better future is waht allow such situation to be reality for many years.

Cehck this article, few days ago one minister stopped our Bosnian companies from exporting weapons to Ukraine because 'mr. mile ronhill' 'care' for Russia, absurd. Link Mile ronhill instructed this minister not to allow deal to be made. Almost every one of our democratic politicians was just a smuggler of goods in '90s, when war was raging.

I think that even Russia have some trade with Ukraine So, its not their ( this party which stopped deal ) interest to have Bosnian companies ( which pay that same government taxes ) strong and export which is of benefit to all of us - interest is to stop progress and have ( imaginary ) bassis to get money credits from Russia ( which will gladly give out credit to anyone - because of profit of course ).

Situation is always more complex then it seems and as @Helen said to you, ' luckily helicopter didn't fall down lol '

But our army is there to keep peace and protect civilians, especially those who are the minority.

When Serbian president visited Kosovo and NATO helicopter came to pick him up, he almost fainted when he saw Croatian coat of arms on it

When I heard about it, I said: Thank you, god, for that bird didn't fall down, no one would ever believe us we didn't ground him on purpose

Average Croat is very much OK with Serbs, believe it or not, as long as they are not aggressively pushing the greater serbian delusions.

haha luckily 'the bird' was just fine lol

I have been ( and i still do whenever i have time ) traveling around Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia very much and i agree that, mostly, people are perfectly fine about eachother - those rural places where most evil originates from are other story - when compared to larger city areas. I had some unpleasant experiences but at end of every of those situations we all had good laugh and no disrespect was shown from anyone. As i have explained above to @Mikolaj, its part of peacekeeping forces.

Sta mislis kakve bi bile reakcije da Hrvatska podnese zahtjev jednom Vucicu da se posalje Hrvatska vojska na Kosovo?

[Just Dave]

BMk you bought this fabricated evidence, there are no Russian Soldiers... there are mercenaries, like from west so from Russians, they are there without any orders.. Russian military have most likely not issued any orders..

Beside their weaponry comes from the area where all this is happening, when this first started, rebels took alot of hardware and alot of hardware was given to them by Kiev forces when they changed sides.

Anything else is fabricated by whatever source your getting this from, most likely based by a west affilieted writter or a blogger. So much lies have been put out by some sources in US that this is becoming a joke...

I am not sure what nato is doing in ME anyway, see Tom Moore documentary for some reality checks.... Robbing and pillaging museums, house, offical buildings..

Edit... i don't even care anymore for what is happening there, political mumbo jumbo and media news wars....idiots! Instead of doing something usefull and rebuild they keep on fighting, blaming each other for stuff that is mostly pointless for a bigger picture.

If it is not Ukraine it is ME... if not, there is armed protest somewhere else...

Edited January 24, 2015 by SurgeTechnologies

[Helen of Annoy]

Sta mislis kakve bi bile reakcije da Hrvatska podnese zahtjev jednom Vucicu da se posalje Hrvatska vojska na Kosovo?

Hrvatska vojska je na Kosovu u sklopu NATO-a. Da bi se o tome pitalo Vucica, njegova drzava prvo mora priznati Kosovo i tako prestati biti agresor. Ni tada Hrvatska ne bi podnosila zahtjeve Vucicu. Osobito ne u vezi Hrvatske vojske.

Obzirom da on nece postati generalni sekretar NATO-a nikada, a cak ni tada, moze promatrati receni manjak hrvatskih zahtjeva kao blagoslov.

(SSAL asked me what would be the reaction if Croatia asked Vucic, Serbian Primeminister, if Croatian army can be sent to Kosovo.

I replied that Croatian army is in Kosovo, as part of NATO forces. In order for Vucic to be asked about it, his country has to recognize Kosovo first and thus stop being an aggressor there. Not even then would Croatia ask Vucic's approval, especially not about Croatian army issues. Considering that Vucic will never, and not even then, become the Secretary General of NATO, he can view said lack of Croatian questions as a blessing.

The puns were lost in the translation, but there, it was translated so you don't wonder what the heck that bunch of consonants up there meant.)

BMk you bought this fabricated evidence, there are no Russian Soldiers... there are mercenaries, like from west so from Russians, they are there without any orders.. Russian military have most likely not issued any orders..

Beside their weaponry comes from the area where all this is happening, when this first started, rebels took alot of hardware and alot of hardware was given to them by Kiev forces when they changed sides.

Anything else is fabricated by whatever source your getting this from, most likely based by a west affilieted writter or a blogger. So much lies have been put out by some sources in US that this is becoming a joke...

I am not sure what nato is doing in ME anyway, see Tom Moore documentary for some reality checks.... Robbing and pillaging museums, house, offical buildings..

Edit... i don't even care anymore for what is happening there, political mumbo jumbo and media news wars....idiots! Instead of doing something usefull and rebuild they keep on fighting, blaming each other for stuff that is mostly pointless for a bigger picture.

If it is not Ukraine it is ME... if not, there is armed protest somewhere else...

I love a good conspiracy theory myself. I even have my own, put together from the bits and pieces of popular ones.

But what shocks me to no end is the egocentrism of conspiracy freaks. It’s only about you, about control over you, like we, the people from “there” are not living beings, just like you are. If you don’t care, then what are you doing here, commenting?

How exactly do you think you can rebuild if there’s a war going on? Do you seriously believe you could ignore the war if it came to your house?

No sane man ever said: Good, there’s war coming. Let’s go get maimed and possibly killed.

These things are out of common man’s control, you don’t get to decide if you’ll fight for your life or not.

I do agree there’s indescribable abyss of intrigue behind every war, but how exactly is one common man supposed to avoid it?

Tell me. Tell me how an Ukrainian can rebuild. How can a Russian make any change in his country's policy.

You blabbering around the Internet about your personal decision to not believe there are thousands of Russians with complete logistic support in Ukraine will not make them disappear out of Ukraine.

They need better advice than your disbelief.

So, how?

How the **** you ignore tank grenade exploding in your living room?

So, when you speak of idiots, stand in front of the mirror.

[Thanato]

Considering Russian Soldiers have been bro tagged in the Ukraine. Russian Paratroopers have sleek captured deep in the Ukraine. And Russian hardware has been seen in the Ukraine. I have no doubt Russia is supporting and supplying the rebel forces.

Also when Russia says that they have Soldiers in the Ukraine but are on Leave. That is well pardon my English ****ing idiotic. Those soldiers are commuting an act of war between Russia and the Ukraine. Doesn't matter if they are there o. Thier own accord. They are Members of the Russian military and as such any action they take can be seen as official action from the Kremlin.

Let's say current US soldiers left on leave to go fight in the Ukraine against the Kremlin and separatists. Would they not be seen as intervention troops from the White House?

[Sir Smoke aLot]

Hrvatska vojska je na Kosovu u sklopu NATO-a. Da bi se o tome pitalo Vucica, njegova drzava prvo mora priznati Kosovo i tako prestati biti agresor. Ni tada Hrvatska ne bi podnosila zahtjeve Vucicu. Osobito ne u vezi Hrvatske vojske.

Obzirom da on nece postati generalni sekretar NATO-a nikada, a cak ni tada, moze promatrati receni manjak hrvatskih zahtjeva kao blagoslov.

Yes but it was NATO mission, which included Croatian soldiers and that was my point. Croatian soldiers under NATO flag equals 'International peacekeeping forces' and not Croatian army sent by Croatia, conclusion which come out from what @Mikolaj said.

[Helen of Annoy]

Yes but it was NATO mission, which included Croatian soldiers and that was my point. Croatian soldiers under NATO flag equals 'International peacekeeping forces' and not Croatian army sent by Croatia, conclusion which come out from what @Mikolaj said.

I don’t think Mikolaj meant that in any other way but as part of international peacekeeping.

It’s simply not necessary to point out it’s not Croatia alone, but Croatian forces within international forces, simply because Croatia alone would never have any business in Kosovo, not even in fictional context.

Average Croatian citizen is fairly patriotic, and patriots are proud of their army and the fact that our soldiers are good enough to be trusted with international peacekeeping tasks.

Our country had extreme experiences with observers and peacekeepers, from the best (Czechs come to mind first) to the worst (I won’t name them, but it is not forgiven), so it matters to me, personally, that our forces are leaving good impression in other countries.

20 years ago, who could imagine a country that needed observers and peacekeepers amidst her own Homeland war, will be so fortunate to offer her assistance to others one day?

Yet it happened, against the odds.

[Mikolaj]

From what i have read in your posts your knowledge, partly, comes from biased sources.

Well, in posts you didnt read much so far. So I cant understand how you concluded that I used biased sources. I still try to find my place under the sun here.

I didnt wrote much about my research and theories. Neither about others people theories. I just go with the flow.

As for Croats in Kosovo, last time I checked they drive armored veichles with HV- which means Croatian army. Also there is a flag of Croatia beside NATO flag in Kosovo. And not one. Also Croatian soldiers have Croatian flag on their uniforms. Also there are Croatian tanks in Kosovo (can provide more info). Ofcourse I stressed out that Croatia is part of NATO. And as part of NATO Croatian soldiers are in Kosovo. Same as they are in Afgahnistan. I realy dont understand why you have problem to accept some well known facts. Maybe you need time that some information settle in you. Atleast thats how I function.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Mikolaj

[Sir Smoke aLot]

Well, in posts you didnt read much so far. So I cant understand how you concluded that I used biased sources. I still try to find my place under the sun here.

I didnt wrote much about my research and theories. Neither about others people theories. I just go with the flow.

As for Croats in Kosovo, last time I checked they drive armored veichles with HV- which means Croatian army. Also there is a flag of Croatia beside NATO flag in Kosovo. And not one. Also Croatian soldiers have Croatian flag on their uniforms. Also there are Croatian tanks in Kosovo (can provide more info). Ofcourse I stressed out that Croatia is part of NATO. And as part of NATO Croatian soldiers are in Kosovo. Same as they are in Afgahnistan. I realy dont understand why you have problem to accept some well known facts. Maybe you need time that some information settle in you. Atleast thats how I function.

True, there wasn't much text but, with all respect, it was enough. Personally, i never had problems with accepting facts nor with admitting when i am wrong but, technically you are saying same thing as i was. Who does have authority in NATO? Maybe answer to this question will clear things for you..

The reason why i quoted your post, the one where you say that ' Croatian army protects Serbian civilians in Kosovo ' was more in one relaxed, funny tone as it imply all kinds of things in many minds at Balkans and i don't expect you to understand it - not without knowing history of relations here better and i am not a person which would like to clear those things to anyone ( not saying that i know everything ) - as i have told you before. br

[Helen of Annoy]

Sir Smoke A Lot, NATO is in Kosovo to protect civilians. If we follow the stereotype, it may sound funny, but yes, so it happened that in all seriousness Croatian soldiers among others are there for the Serbian civilians too.

I said stereotype, because in actual reality there wasn't one instance where Croatian soldiers protected Serbian civilians (edit: I'm talking about Homeland war, not Kosovo). To the point of being awarded honorary citizenship of saved towns or villages, and they declined that honour because they think they only did what was their duty.

(Slavic speakers will have no troubles finding all the links they need themselves.)

Now, I keep claiming the situation in Croatia 20 years ago was painfully similar to situation in Ukraine today, but this thread is about Ukraine and though we are useful as a parallel, this has gone into too fine detail and has started to slightly derail the thread.

Back on topic, me too.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Helen of Annoy

[Mikolaj]

SirSomoke

Line of command is well known in NATO on macroscale. On microscale things are different. Nevertheless, its Croatia desicion to send army in particular area or not. After they decided to send them, they agreed to put their soldiers under usual command line.

Helen

edit:I just saw that you didnt spoke about Kosovo. Sorry.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Mikolaj

[Helen of Annoy]

Mikolaj, my mistake... it was meant in the following sense: there wasn't one but many instances.

[Mikolaj]

I love when I understand with people without even writting. And they say that telepathy doesnt exist. But that girl Helen just read my mind again and again.

200 years ago you would be burn at stake. For witchcrafting.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Mikolaj

[Just Dave]

I love a good conspiracy theory myself. I even have my own, put together from the bits and pieces of popular ones.

But what shocks me to no end is the egocentrism of conspiracy freaks. It’s only about you, about control over you, like we, the people from “there” are not living beings, just like you are. If you don’t care, then what are you doing here, commenting?

How exactly do you think you can rebuild if there’s a war going on? Do you seriously believe you could ignore the war if it came to your house?

No sane man ever said: Good, there’s war coming. Let’s go get maimed and possibly killed.

These things are out of common man’s control, you don’t get to decide if you’ll fight for your life or not.

I do agree there’s indescribable abyss of intrigue behind every war, but how exactly is one common man supposed to avoid it?

Tell me. Tell me how an Ukrainian can rebuild. How can a Russian make any change in his country's policy.

You blabbering around the Internet about your personal decision to not believe there are thousands of Russians with complete logistic support in Ukraine will not make them disappear out of Ukraine.

They need better advice than your disbelief.

So, how?

How the **** you ignore tank grenade exploding in your living room?

So, when you speak of idiots, stand in front of the mirror.

First of all IDIOTS... was aimed at politicans... i'll stop this one here haha!

After every war, people rebuild they move on... look at germany...

Look at Serbia, Bosnia, whole balkan..

There was peace declared in Ukraine what happened? Tell us please... Who BROKE IT...? Nato supported Kiev or so called rebels... do you even know how all this started? Obviously not, since everyone who is supporting Kiev doesn't know why people resissted..

Anyway for your age stop trolling on how nato is good, because it stands behind kiev.... pulling strings for them.. Like Russia is pulling strings for Rebels...

There is no conspiracy for fabricated evidence haha, it was clear when west showed some pictures of so called heavy weapons with wrong dates and time... and they actually went public.

Oh and i will choose if i will fight for my life or not... it is not all about picking up arms and staying in house in middle of warzone, knowing enemy has long range ballistical weapons, those who have common sense went to either Russia or deeper in Ukraine away from war... those who stayed... well... they are either blood thirsty or lacking common sense.

I choose what i believe and seening what first happened there i saw who is to blame in this case, there was no US nor Russians back then..

Edited January 24, 2015 by SurgeTechnologies

[Mikolaj]

Russian hegemony over Ukraine started when Russians start to called themselves Russians. Before that they were called themselves Moscowites. But to create great empire you need to have great history. So lets, steal some history of Ukraine. Lets called them "little Russians" instead of Ukrainians. In the end we are "older brother".

Truth is that Ukrainians were older 300/500 years than Russians. So in that sense older brother isnt older in any sense.

Russians used pan-slavism and communism to spread in Ukraine. But failed. Russians banned Ukrainian language. Trying to suffocate Ukrainian indentity. There is old saying: "Delete one language and you will delete memories preserved on that language." Ukrainians are now mostly atheists. But they were religious once. They were Orthdox and Greekcatholics. But during USSR Russians "baptized" Ukrainian catholic chuches into their Orthodox chuches. So Catholics pray in woods. And not because of fresh air. But Russians went further, they created Holodomor. Etymology of that word came from: " to kill by starvation". Its man made famine. Genocide. 4-7,5 millions Ukrainians died. There is beautifull monument in Kiev. Anyone interested google Holodomor monument Kiev. Also not to mentioned relocation. Trough history. Just google Green Ukraine.

Ukraine is home of all Slavs. Not Russia. Russian ethnogenesys is secret in Russia. Every good historian knows that Russians are half-Slavs, half-Finns. Their capital was founded by Mongols. Not to mentioned others Asiatic people with whom they melted.

And when Ukrainians decided to quit this hegemony, "older brother" send little greens in Ukraine. Lets say that Nikita made mistake (didnt-he was best politician in USSR) to give Crimea to Ukraine. Ukraine was indenpendent country. And Crimea was in Ukraine. And Putin even after it try to lecture us about international law.

Putin, who capture right hand of Osama bin Laden and released him. Putin, who killed own citizens, to stay in power. Putin, who puts political enemies in prison. Or simply poison them.

And now, we have members here who lecture us how Ukraine and NATO are responsible for war in Ukraine. How Russians dont have nothing with it.

It would be hilarious that isnt so tragic.

[Helen of Annoy]

First of all IDIOTS... was aimed at politicans... i'll stop this one here haha!

See, the moment I sent you in front of a mirror, you started laughing. Aren’t you blessed?

After every war, people rebuild they move on... look at germany...

Look at Serbia, Bosnia, whole balkan..

Look at my location, you incomplete idiot because some parts are missing.

Do you not know where Croatia is or you’re posting your propaganda from Pozarevac? (My apologies to few decent people who accidently live there. It’s not your fault. I'm so sorry for your misfortune.)

There was peace declared in Ukraine what happened? Tell us please... Who BROKE IT...? Nato supported Kiev or so called rebels... do you even know how all this started? Obviously not, since everyone who is supporting Kiev doesn't know why people resissted..

Yes, who broke it? Legal government of internationally recognized country Ukraine, to whom the war is the worst possible development of the situation, or Moscow supported separatists, whose sole purpose is starting the war?

And do you even know anything about Ukraine? Or – here’s the other possibility rearing its ugly head again – are you posting your propaganda from Kremlin?

Do you even wonder why whole Eastern Europe is resisting you?

Anyway for your age stop trolling on how nato is good, because it stands behind kiev.... pulling strings for them.. Like Russia is pulling strings for Rebels...

It’s good for me, since you are the only other option and due to my age I remember your influence too well. You start doing something good for a change and maybe Eastern Europe will stop running away from you.

Also, you can sell your crap to braindead spoiled western children whose hobbies are conspiracies, not to me, who lives in the consequences of the nightmare you kept my world in for more than half a ****en century.

Why can't you come as friends, brothers, not as conquerors? What's wrong with you?

There is no conspiracy for fabricated evidence haha, it was clear when west showed some pictures of so called heavy weapons with wrong dates and time... and they actually went public.

Oh and i will choose if i will fight for my life or not... it is not all about picking up arms and staying in house in middle of warzone, knowing enemy has long range ballistical weapons, those who have common sense went to either Russia or deeper in Ukraine away from war... those who stayed... well... they are either blood thirsty or lacking common sense.

I choose what i believe and seening what first happened there i saw who is to blame in this case, there was no US nor Russians back then..

Ah, so you are one of the pathetic 50 cents a post army.

My condolences, son. I wish you find a real job some day. Maybe in EU, they keep hiring manual labourers. I wouldn't laugh at you anymore in that case, since I appreciate when people are doing the job they were made for.

Propaganda is, obviously, not your calling.

And please, do meditate on the brothers, not conquerors part. It's important and could make our future better.

[Mr.United_Nations]

First of all IDIOTS... was aimed at politicans... i'll stop this one here haha!

After every war, people rebuild they move on... look at germany...

Look at Serbia, Bosnia, whole balkan..

There was peace declared in Ukraine what happened? Tell us please... Who BROKE IT...? Nato supported Kiev or so called rebels... do you even know how all this started? Obviously not, since everyone who is supporting Kiev doesn't know why people resissted..

Anyway for your age stop trolling on how nato is good, because it stands behind kiev.... pulling strings for them.. Like Russia is pulling strings for Rebels...

There is no conspiracy for fabricated evidence haha, it was clear when west showed some pictures of so called heavy weapons with wrong dates and time... and they actually went public.

Oh and i will choose if i will fight for my life or not... it is not all about picking up arms and staying in house in middle of warzone, knowing enemy has long range ballistical weapons, those who have common sense went to either Russia or deeper in Ukraine away from war... those who stayed... well... they are either blood thirsty or lacking common sense.

I choose what i believe and seening what first happened there i saw who is to blame in this case, there was no US nor Russians back then..

It was also clear when Russia media posted that obvious fake of the Ukranian jet shooting down the airliner and it actually went public

[Mikolaj]

Here is what Ukrainian historography say about Russia:

Before 15th century there is no Russian nation. Russian Tsars glorified and disorted their history in order to create greate empire. Its myth that Russians originate from Kievian Rus. Moscow was created in 1277 as vassal province of Golden Horde. However Russians claim its established by Yuri Dolgoruky in 1147. Based on zero evidence. Khan Mengu Timur esablished Moscow in 13th century. Moscow was their „ulus“-or vassal area. Kievan Rus existed for 300 years when Moscow was established. People who live there were Finns. During those 300 years there is no evidence of links between „Moskel“ and Kievan Rus. Also those Finns( Moksha Meri Mari Ves Chad ) were pagan. While people in Kievan Rus were Christhians. That Moskel or Suzdal was under Golden Horde. Also people who live din Suzdal or Moskel were reffered to themselves as Moskovites to the 18th century. Needless to say that those Finns tribes in Moscow region and area of Tula and Riazan were called Moskel people.

First Rurik in Moskel was Yuri Dolgoruky. He was prince of Suzdal. His was was Finnish. His son was named Andrey Bogoliubsky. He was raised among Finns and when he become Prince he cut all ties with Kievan Rus. He was pagan. He destoryed all things in Moskel which have ties with Kievan Rus. Than in 1169 pagan half-Finn Andrey, with his Finns from Moskel, destroyed Kyiv. He burned all churches. Destroy all signs of Christhianity. Slowly missionaries start to spread Christhianity to Moskel. Riazan and Vladimir were established. Now Russians say that Slavs migrated to the east. But that unimaginable. With spread of Christhianity in those Finns tribes, cities appears. Perhaps some Slavs did came. But mass migration didnt happened. It was not promised land or anything. To the 12th century only Finns tribes lived in Moskel. There are 7729 burials there. Netiher was Slavic. So in period of 50-60 years Missonaries start to spread Christhianity and some Slavs settle among those Finnish tribes and soon in 1237 Mongols under Khan Batey appeared from no where. Vladimir prince Yury Vsevolodovich become vassal of Mongols. Some of Finnish tribes become part of Mongols army. Area of Rostov-Suzdal become Golden Horde area. Than Yuri Vsevolodovich invaded Europe as part of Mongol army. His brother Yaroslav left his 8 y.o. son ar hostage with the Khan. Name of his son was Alexander. Alexander lived in Mongol empire from 1238-1252. He was raised as Mongol. He even became blood brother of Sartak, son of Khan. He than married Khans daughter. In 1252 Alexander become prince of Vladimir. He was prince till 1263. He become known as Alexander Nevsky. Russians glorify his victories in battle of Neva in 1240, battle of Chus, battle of Peipus Lake in 1242. He couldnt been in these battle because that half Mongol-half Finn was kid in time of those battles. Needless to say that Russians claim that Suzdal was indenpendent from Golden Horde. While we know that it was Khans „ulus“. Khan Batey installed Great Baskak and under him were reginoal lower baskaks. So Yassa (Mongol law) was law in Moskel. So how do we know when Moscow was established? Golden Horde done census of population. In 1237/8 than in 1254-59. No mentions of Moscow. Surprise surprise. Than during third census Moscos appeared in 1272! In 1277 become princedom by decree of Khan Mengu-Timur as „ulus“! And who was their first Prince? Daniel, son of Alexander Nevsky who lived among Mongols. Which would make a great deal of sense considering that Finnish or Uralic Kingdom of Sudzal survived almost to Mongol times. And that we still have Uralic survivals today: the Mari (who even have retained their ancestral religion for all these years; perhaps the only truly authentic "Old Religion" in Europe), the Mordovii, the Udmurt, the Chuvash and the Komi, all of whom have Autonomous Regions in the Russian Republic. It is easy and common for conquered people to adopt the conqueror's language. Look at how Filipinos learned first Spanish and then English. Or Native Americans in the US and Canada learning English. Or peoples of the Middle East shifting their language from Greek and Aramaic and Coptic to Arabic. Even in Finland and Northern Sweden there are Finns who learned Swedish (not to mention Saami).

Kulkhan, who was brother of Khan Uzbek (in Russia Kalita), in 1319 become prince in shadow of Moscow. In 1328 become Great Prince of Moscow. Then Kalita become muslim. Then he destroyed Ruriks adn installed Mongol rule in Moscow. Last Mongol prince in Moscow was Prince Ivan Kalita. In 1598 Romanovs took charge. So Moscow was 270 years under Mongol dynasty. Moscow prinicpality and tsardom from 1547 to the 16th century didnt have anything with Kievan Rus. Russians appears in 15th century from Finns who didnt have European culture. Russians didnt live in Kievan Rus. Russia is Mongolia successor in a sense. We see that in their mentality. Hegemony and domination. So the Russians needed to disort their history. Only Ukrainians were in their way. So they banned their language. Tried to exterminated them with famine. Remember Holomdor. Russians relocate Ukrainians. So lets called Ukrainians „Little Russians.“ Who ever spoke against was sent in Gulag. So Russians went further. They baptized Ukrainian Greek Catholics churches into their churches. Meanwhile those Catholics pray in wood. And not because of fresh air. In time they become atheists. Also its interesting to know that Kievan Rus called Suzdal-„Beyond the Forests Land“.

During Vasily III (1505-1533) priset Filofey said: “Two Romes fell, a third still stands, and there will never be a fourth.“ They saw themselves as chosen by God. Than Ivan the Terible wanted some of Byzantine history. Legend say that Cap of Monokomakh was given to Prince Volodymyr Monomakh by his grandfather Constantine IX. Yuri Dolgoruky was 6th son of Volodymyr Monomakh. First prince of Suzdal who married Finnish women and which son destroyed Kyiv. Moscow saw themselves as third Rome. So they fabricated testament of Volodymyr in which he give legacy rights to Yuri Dolgoruky. Truth is quite different. Monomakh cap was gold bukhar tubeteyka of Ivan Kalyta who got it from Khan Uzbek. With this fabrication of successors of Byzantines, Ivan the Terrible in 1547 become Moscow Tsar.

There is rumor that Peter I in 1701 issued decree to delete traces of all their ancestors. However in 1716 Peter I disorted Königsberg Chronicles. Fabrication. Same as „General Rus Chronicles Collections“ which is used to show Russian rights to the legacy of Kyivan Rus. So in 1721 Moscow proclaimed to be Russian empire and that Moskovites are now Russians. Also Peter called historians from Europe for rewritting history of Russia. But those historians must swore an oath to not reveal secret. What secret? There is no secrets in scientific work.

Educated Catherine II when examined archives she noticed that all Russian history is based on oral tradition. With no evidence. So on December, 4.1783. she created „Commision for the Collection and Organization of the Ancient Russian History.“ Director of commison was Graf A. P. Shuvalov who with others 10 historians took the job. Job was to find new chronicles, rewrite existing and create archive. They worked on it for 9 years and in 1972 „Catherine history“ was published. Many chronicles were rewritten several times and the originals destroyed and locked.

Successors of Muroma, Mer, Ves, Moksha and others from Moscow who now called themselves Russians say look at Cathrine work. Well its interesting that all we have are copies written in Cathrine time. Not one original document survived. Not one. Idea was to created new history. To link Finns with Kievan Rus. To hide their history. In the „History of the Scythians“ by Andei I. Lyzov which was published in 1776 and 1787 portraited Moscow citizens different from Kievan Rus, Poland and Lithuania.

Word : kraina (kpaiHa) on Ukrainian means land. U-kraina means „Our land“ or „Domowina“. It first time mentioned in 12th century (see Hyptian Codex). But Russians promoted idea that it means „borderland“. And now its widely accepted in scientific community. Even among Ukrainian historians.

Russian Slavic line is Novgorod. Their Suzdal line is Finns. Kievan Rus is mostly Ukrainian history as name imply. But also Belarusian. And Russian is Novgorod. But with last many Ukrainian historians will have something to say about. Kievan Rus was largest state in Europe! And its Kyev legacy not Moscow.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Mikolaj

[Mikolaj]

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[Mikolaj]

Tryzub- Ukrainian legacy- Rurik dynasty