Russia commits act of war.

[Helen of Annoy]

Mikolaj, your posts are pure pleasure. I have to find time to learn more about all the beautiful historic details you mentioned.

Just few thoughts, In short:

Eggs –you must have egg cracking contests then, too. Our whole villages gather with baskets of pisanice (pysanki, coloured eggs) and search for the hardest egg through series of egg-duels. Each time your egg was cracked, you have to eat it, that’s how we limit this so it doesn’t escalate into food wasting.

So the most carefully coloured eggs are for display, while the ugly but hard-looking eggs are for cracking contests. Some boil them in vinegar because they believe it will make the shell harder, some try to humorously cheat and bring wooden eggs but they are disqualified pretty soon.

If only we were certain about etymology of the Croatian name, we would be closer to the accurate history of our nations. I was just coincidentally reading about root Chervo, from which both name Chervena (obviously, Crvena) Hrvatska and Serb (Chervo->Servo->Serbo, including Sorb, Sorben variation) could stem from.

It would explain a lot. Personally, I don’t mind Serbs, they are our close relatives and I feel for them too. Of course, I have absolutely no tolerance for the extremist ideology that was encouraged in Serbia for the last 100 years, but other than that, I appreciate their culture, heritage and wonderful individuals that nation is crawling with.

Nikola Tesla was ethnically a Serb, born in Croatia, then part of Austro-Hungary.

Everyone wants a great guy to be from their tribe, so our amateur historians have dug out Nikola had Croatian blood on his mother’s side and some even propose that Tesla family was Croatian before religion was taken as the rule in deciding the nationality. Since Teslas went Orthodox, they were considered Serbs, because we had no Croatian Orthodox church. While all Catholics were put into Croats, regardless if they maybe were actual Serbs withdrawing in front of Turk invasion, for example, and switched to Catholicism.

Back then, it was easy to switch from Orthodoxy to Catholicism and vice versa, because people thought that Christian is Christian, so when people moved, they’d often simply start going to the closest church, regardless if it was Orthodox or Catholic.

Then we had Svetozar Boroevic, Austro-Hungarian Feldmarschall (WWI) who was definitely Orthodox and definitely a Croat.

Of course, it doesn’t mean I’m trying to force Tesla or Borojevic families into Croats.

But it would be nice to have Croatian Orthodox Church at last, so that people can freely choose their accurate identity.

(Personally, I’d bring back our old faith too. We are celebrating all the old festivals anyway, they are just covered by various Christian names, but it’s very visible what are their roots. Our old faith is compatible with Christianity in all key parts, except the One God, but since our pantheon doesn’t have specifically named Creator, I think we even have a way to coexist without hurting each other’s theological feelings.)

Preservation of culture – the same attempts to eradicate the identity through eradicating the language happened to both Ukrainians and Croats.

While Serbian and Croatian are indeed similar, they are not the same, and they are so similar because Serbs almost lost their language during 500 years of Turkish rule. Their Vuk Karadzic reconstructed Serbian from Croatian and Bosnian. They expressed their gratitude later, by doing everything they could to force the Croatian out and replace it with Serbian. You were not allowed to call Croatian Croatian, you had to say the whole phrase: hrvatski ili srpski jezik (Croatian or Serbian language), or woe to you. We got that outrageous freedom only after a war almost broke out in 1970, before that it was srpsko-hrvatski (Serbo-Croatian). It was the same with our flag and our coat of arms – displaying the flag was always tricky business, it never could be seen without ex-Yu flag while displaying our coat of arms would land you in prison.

We got our flag, coat of arms and language back in 1990s, it was overnight, because they were censored and distorted in ex-Yu, but never, ever forgotten.

Few lost politicians were trying to curb the expression of Croatian identity even today, attempting to equate patriotism with nationalism, heritage with excess. Of course, that was a waste of time.

But the structures are not doing enough, not just about heritage, they are not efficient in any segment of society. We have everything, from resources over people to geographic position, and we are still struggling. I hope that entering EU will clear the stagnant muddy waters of Croatian bureaucracy, but it is not happening fast enough.

One of the reasons why is that the same families are sitting in comfy armchairs for the third generation already, exchanging political ideologies but never changing their strategy of taking care of themselves while who gives a flying duck about the nation.

Still, I’m an optimist. I have a feeling there will be some progress relatively soon.

[stevewinn]

Have you got any idea how many Ukrainians (and related nations) are in the USA? Or you think you personally are the whole NATO?

Too late. You will never get rid of us again. We are coming to steal your jobs and speak Polish. Kidding. Couldn’t resist. Low hanging fruit problem

Read the news, steve, read the news.

is Ukraine a NATO member? NO. is there a special interest in Ukraine other than to limit Russian influence. NO. they are the cold hard facts. Ukraine should be taking it's case to the United Nations and its this organisation which should be leading the way. lets see what the international community have to say.

NATO needs to stop allowing membership to the likes of Croatia. NATO is a Defence Alliance which has lost its way and is now being used as a cheap political tool to bring civility to a people who cannot stop bringing conflict to Europe. here im talking about the Balkans or "Western Balkans" - Albania and Croatia serve no purpose being in NATO and neither do the old Warsaw pact members only to limit Russian influence. And don't get me started on Defence spending by those listed. the average spend on defence is 1.2% of GDP. Why should NATO Rush to their defence when they don't take their own defence serious.

It would be interesting to see how many of the British public would be willing to put the UK on a war footing for any of them in the list. countries steeped in corruption, - in short basket cases.

• Albania
  
• Bulgaria
  
• Croatia
  
• Czech Republic
  
• Estonia
  
• Hungary
  
• Latvia
  
• Lithuania
  
• Poland
  
• Romania
  
• Slovakia
  
• Slovenia
  

[Helen of Annoy]

is Ukraine a NATO member? NO. is there a special interest in Ukraine other than to limit Russian influence. NO. they are the cold hard facts. Ukraine should be taking it's case to the United Nations and its this organisation which should be leading the way. lets see what the international community have to say.

NATO needs to stop allowing membership to the likes of Croatia. NATO is a Defence Alliance which has lost its way and is now being used as a cheap political tool to bring civility to a people who cannot stop bringing conflict to Europe. here im talking about the Balkans or "Western Balkans" - Albania and Croatia serve no purpose being in NATO and neither do the old Warsaw pact members only to limit Russian influence. And don't get me started on Defence spending by those listed. the average spend on defence is 1.2% of GDP. Why should NATO Rush to their defence when they don't take their own defence serious.

It would be interesting to see how many of the British public would be willing to put the UK on a war footing for any of them in the list. countries steeped in corruption, - in short basket cases.

• Albania
  
• Bulgaria
  
• Croatia
  
• Czech Republic
  
• Estonia
  
• Hungary
  
• Latvia
  
• Lithuania
  
• Poland
  
• Romania
  
• Slovakia
  
• Slovenia
  

If only you knew how I look forward to your trolling. It's so therapeutic for me... ah... so:

Beat the dead western Balkan mule harder, maybe it springs back to life, just to make your imperial dreams come true. In, wait - third attempt?

When plotting with Russia behind American back, remember not to sell any countries in advance. We might object and break few Yugoslavias in the process.

Why should we defend your - obviously traitorous - ass? We are the front line, you’re sitting back there on your island, calculating in peace.

I’ll tell you honestly why we are defending your ass. By accident. You just happen to be far out there in the West, it’s the Europe that we are protecting, from invaders from the East, since time immemorial.

We’d stop you too if we knew what will become of you. So your island would remain blissfully Celtic and history would be short of few genocides.

In short, steve, shut up.

I’ll give you a coloured egg if you do.

[Mikolaj]

Thanks Helen of Annoy. Your posts are also wonderfull. Always some new info, or good reminder and most of all your brilliant insights.

If you discover etymology of Croats in fact "Hrvati" you will get Nobel prize. In my research I found about 20 possible explaination. Depends on author. Name Hrvat is widespread all over East Europe. So experts tried to think that originate from geographic stuffs. But truth is that we dont have good etymology in different languages. Then some experts tried to think it was proffession. Like elite warriors. Waywatchers. Such as Walter Pohl. Who is expert no doubt. But he is expert in miggration and steppe people. Also he ignored some crucial things such as archaeological data, historogpraphy and historic context. Its hard to say why expert like he made such mistake. Perhaps because his prime concern was Avars so he didnt go into debt about Croats. Nevertheless, he is completly wrong. I have written down on my notes (what can I say Im old school) possible etymology of Croats. What Im sure of is that is Irannic origin. There is no question about it. Ofcourse, we have authors who even try to explain Iraninc origin of name Croats. Russian Vsevolod Miller claimed that name Hrvat (Croat) came from Iranian Hor-va (t)u which mean Suns path. Max Julius Friedrich Vasmer claimed that name Hrvat came from Hu-urvata which means friend. If you are really interested I could search all those "20" etymologies. There is no doubt that name Hrvati once used Scythian/Sarmatian tribe. Even Croatian title for ruler "Ban" on Persian language means nothing than "Ruler". Croatian average historians means it originate from Turkic Bayan which means Rich. Bayan>Ban. Why they rather think its Turkic origin instead of Persian? Because of education system. (ex-Yugoslavian). There was Persian province called Harauvatya and people Harahvaiti But thats very early and more and more we move from today Croatia things are more and more murky. As usual in ethnogenesys. Croats bear Iranian name, because Sarmatian tribe named Hrvati conquered Slavic tribe in Ukraine. In time those Iranic Hrvati stop to be who they are. Steppe warriors. Riders. Slavic way of living melted them. So they melted in Slavic people. Start to speak slavic language. They took Slavic wives, kids of them start to talk mother language. In time those Iranic minority, elite warriors disappeared in Slavs. But some names suriveved. Such as Ban! Such as Hrvati. Whats amazing that all lignuist experts agree that Irannic languages did play role in forming of Slavic languages but no one dare to explore it further in Croatia. Which is redicule, since we know that Croatian Chakavian dialect is oldest known Slavic dialect. Anyway, those Slavs who took Hrvati name, were under Goths before. Under is wrong word because Goths were civilized. They were elite soldiers. Aim for soldiers not for common people or architecture. Look Dalmatia. They didnt touch anything in Dalmatia. From Goths, Slavic people took "mir" suffix. And much more but for now lets stay on this. Mir like Goth Valamir, Croatian Branimir, Trpimir, Vojnomir...all Slavs have mir suffix. Vladimir for example. Mir suffix was so cool that even Tolkien took it for Faramir, Boromir and others. Which isnt surprising at all since he took many ideas from Goths, Huns and Early Croats! Yes-in future I will provide you more evidence for this claim. So that Croats moved to Ukraine, part of today Hungary, Poland, Czech, Slovenia and lastly in todays Croatia. During period from 200 AD (or 100 AD depends on author) to 900 AD we have had 4 or 5 Croatia. In 10th century Croats have two or three states. But to not confuse you with all this data, I will leave it to other time. Point is Croats are mostly Slavic. Their language is Slavic. Their genes are mixed. Their name Iranic, Gothic. Those Croats came to Dalmatia and Pannonia. Later many people influenced them. First, Romanized Illyrians. Lets look north Dalmatia. There were Liburnians. Who came from Syria. Become Romans later. They even formed their own language in Dalmatia. When Croats came they all melted in Croats. Since Liburnians are part of Croatian ethnogenesys we must track them too.

I first time hear for Svetozar. I will search about him. As for issue you mentioned, its similar what happened in Bosnia during middle age. All Vlach people become Orthodox in Bosnia. And they become Serbs. Vlachs are Vlachs. Morlaks are Morlaks. Its amazing how for example Serbs called them Serbs. Im sure you know about Bunjevci and Shopci. They came from Bosnia to Vojvodina. They are Croats. We have Bunjevic in Hungary. Also Croats. Nevertheless, Serbia still dont admits that Shopci are Croats. But believe it or not, separate micro ethnicity. So Ban Jelachich wasnt Croat according to Serbian historogaphy. Serbia is ...well, Serbia. Truth is that Croats "didnt know" about Serbs till 19th century. Serbs came from Lustia or Ukraine in 7th century in Rashica. They stay in Rashica till 12/13 th century when they created Serbian empire. Sadly Serbian empire was short living. They soon felt under Ottomans. Than they rebeled in 19th century. So if you desire we could talk about them but to me they are somehow irelevant. Anyway, here is one more example how people knows to preserved their culture. But ofcourse they felt under Ottoman influence. Red Star fans are called Delije. Origin is Ottoman unit Deli, something like successor of Akinci (another Ottoman unit). Those Akinci were also Serbs among others. Origin of winged hussars are Akinci. I assume you know about Winged Hussars. They came from Hungary. Unit I mean. And in Hungary it was first created from Serbs.Etymology of Hussars are Gusar and Husar. Huszar, Even Gothic, et cetera depends on author. Serbs Hussars were mercenaries in Poland. Anyway, now you know about Deli!

One of my favourite topics in Croatian language. I was member on one forum about liguistics. I allways won the debate. When I met linguists in real life and speak with them about it...linguists are simply said "clueless"!. This part we must dicuss!!! For this I have something saved on my computer because I was tired of typing it.

to be continued...

Edited January 27, 2015 by Mikolaj

[SolarPlexus]

lol @ topic title

Whatever Russia is doing, it is miniscule compared to NATO/US aggressive behavior. Seriously, Russia is just sitting comfortably on its resource hoard and waiting. Yeah it went into Crimea to protect ethnic Russians from the civil war that engulfed the country. And it should have.

And if NATO continues to be so aggressive, it will turn around and bite them on the ****. And when they wake up the Bear, it will be too late for regret and political bull ****

[SolarPlexus]

is Ukraine a NATO member? NO. is there a special interest in Ukraine other than to limit Russian influence. NO.

True. They even endangered western Europe being supplied with gas with this stunt, only to enclosure Russia. Selfish

Edited January 28, 2015 by SolarPlexus

[+joc]

lol @ topic title

Whatever Russia is doing, it is miniscule compared to NATO/US aggressive behavior. Seriously, Russia is just sitting comfortably on its resource hoard and waiting. Yeah it went into Crimea to protect ethnic Russians from the civil war that engulfed the country. And it should have.

And if NATO continues to be so aggressive, it will turn around and bite them on the ****. And when they wake up the Bear, it will be too late for regret and political bull ****

Who is responsible for the deaths of approx. 40 million people? That's right...NATO...(if you were thinking Stalin you are obviously a loser)

Who rolled their tanks into Poland? NATO did!

Who rolled their tanks into Yugoslavia? NATO did!

Who rolled their tanks into country after country saying...Velcome Comrad? That's right...NATO did!

Yeah, that NATO...ooooohhhhh...gives me shivers....ooooohhh

[MordorOrc]

And when they wake up the Bear, it will be too late for regret and political bull ****

Except that isn't going to happen, because neither Russia nor NATO want war with one another. Also, "aggression"? Who invaded and annexed the territory of a sovereign state unprovoked? That's right. Russia did. And for different reasons than people would have you believe.

[Mr.United_Nations]

lol @ topic title

Whatever Russia is doing, it is miniscule compared to NATO/US aggressive behavior. Seriously, Russia is just sitting comfortably on its resource hoard and waiting. Yeah it went into Crimea to protect ethnic Russians from the civil war that engulfed the country. And it should have.

And if NATO continues to be so aggressive, it will turn around and bite them on the ****. And when they wake up the Bear, it will be too late for regret and political bull ****

No they invaded before any war happened, which started the war.

[Black Red Devil]

One of the first thing I would do is open museum and mounement (quite big ) of MarKo Polo in Korzula. I would even put Polo to look on China so that his back look on Italy. And Im dead serious about it.

Second thing would be even more radical but lets that leave for another time.

Why should his statue be showing it's back towards Italy? Venetians were (during the Republic) and are an Italic race. The Island of Korcula (or Curzola) was part of the Republic of Venice, like most of Dalmatia and Istria and there was a high concentration of italians living there at the time (specially around the coasts where the majority were italic/latin). Slavitising his name to Marko and suggesting he show his back towards Italy sounds like you're suggesting he was of Slavic origin. Have you got links to show he was?

It actually reminds me of a Macedonian friend of mine who one day started talking about Alexander the Great and how he was a great Macedonian hero. As a joke I said yes, he was a great Macedonian, but he was Greek (or rather hellenic). I got surprised when he got quite serious about it and said that he had always been taught (from schooldays) that Alexander was a Slavic hero. Now, Macedonia was a separate Hellenic nation at the time, similar to Sparta, Athens, Crete, Troy etc. but the common denominator was that they were all culturally and linguistically proto-Greek. So, OK to claim him as a Macedonian hero, but not a Slavic hero.

In fact Slavs only arrived in the Balkans in the 6th century, 900 years later. Before then there were Celts, Illyrians, Greeks and Romans living there. During it's history many cultures and populations have occupied those lands (Greek Byzantine, Huns, Germanic populations,Turks, Italians). Trying to Slavitise everyone that lived and breathed there sounds like a common practice or maybe you had the same teacher at school as my friend.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Black Red Devil

[Helen of Annoy]

Black Red Devil,

Mikolaj and I promised not to derail this thread any further, so I’ll just help you with the most basic info:

You see, majority of people in Istria, Dalmatia, Herzegovina and so on carry the genes of indigenous population. In other words, they were here since the Ice Age, if not before. Many Macedonians today, from Former Yugoslavian Republic Of Macedonia, still carry the genome of ancient Macedonians.

The genetic research show the whole history of Slavs was misunderstood, distorted and misused. The very concept of what Slavs are is wrong. There are years of further research before we discover the actual history. That, what you just lectured us about, was version of history tailored to fit 19-20 century political needs of the big players and had been proven wrong.

Be so kind and wait with us for more reliable reconstructions. Or keep insisting elsewhere, since this thread is about Russia comitting the act of war in Ukraine. Do you have an opinion about that, maybe?

[Daughter of the Nine Moons]

Black Red Devil,

Mikolaj and I promised not to derail this thread any further, so I’ll just help you with the most basic info:

You see, majority of people in Istria, Dalmatia, Herzegovina and so on carry the genes of indigenous population. In other words, they were here since the Ice Age, if not before. Many Macedonians today, from Former Yugoslavian Republic Of Macedonia, still carry the genome of ancient Macedonians.

The genetic research show the whole history of Slavs was misunderstood, distorted and misused. The very concept of what Slavs are is wrong. There are years of further research before we discover the actual history. That, what you just lectured us about, was version of history tailored to fit 19-20 century political needs of the big players and had been proven wrong.

Be so kind and wait with us for more reliable reconstructions. Or keep insisting elsewhere, since this thread is about Russia comitting the act of war in Ukraine. Do you have an opinion about that, maybe?

Helen of Annoy as it was you and Mikolaj who brought this thread widely off topic, please refrain from lecturing other members on the appropriateness of their response.

Going forward please use the report button.

[Mikolaj]

Helen of Annoy as it was you and Mikolaj who brought this thread widely off topic, please refrain from lecturing other members on the appropriateness of their response.

Going forward please use the report button.

Yes, we did. No one deined it. We admit our sins and we made deal to not derail it further. Sorry for going offtopic. It wasnt our intention. It just happened.

When Carl Gustav Jung and Sigmund Freud first time met, they spoke unintentionally and continuously for 14 hours.

As Jung later said: “The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed."

Yet, we noticed what we did and stoped it. Im sure we would outdo Jung-Freud if we didnt stop it.

Once again I apologize. Also I must admit that it was I who initiate conversation in that direction so dont blame Helen of Annoy. After history of Russian Ukrainian relations things went in wrong directions. I start to talked how Russians stealing history of others people. Such as Croatian. And I also add that Ukrainians have links with Croats. So it isnt toatly offtopic. Helen of Annoy even propsed idea that we derailed thread and we quit.

I take all responsibility for it. I wish only I could explain Black Red Devil that Marco Polo was Slavic indeed. But there is place and time for everything.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Mikolaj

[Black Red Devil]

If only you knew how I look forward to your trolling. It's so therapeutic for me... ah... so:

Beat the dead western Balkan mule harder, maybe it springs back to life, just to make your imperial dreams come true. In, wait - third attempt?

When plotting with Russia behind American back, remember not to sell any countries in advance. We might object and break few Yugoslavias in the process.

Why should we defend your - obviously traitorous - ass? We are the front line, you’re sitting back there on your island, calculating in peace.

I’ll tell you honestly why we are defending your ass. By accident. You just happen to be far out there in the West, it’s the Europe that we are protecting, from invaders from the East, since time immemorial.

We’d stop you too if we knew what will become of you. So your island would remain blissfully Celtic and history would be short of few genocides.

In short, steve, shut up.

I’ll give you a coloured egg if you do.

I read a lot of hilarious comments in both yours and Mikolaj's last posts but, diligently, as advised by the Mods, I'll refrain from commenting and derailing. So back on topic,

I agree with Steve that the only reason those old Eastern bloc countries became part of NATO was to deflate Russian influence in Europe. Ukraine isn't part of NATO and the only reasonable interest NATO members would have in backing it in a fight against Russia would be for the same reasons they allowed the other Eastern bloc countries in, to deflate more power away from Russia. The only problem is that, unlike those other Eastern bloc countries, the Ukraine is culturally, strategically, morally and ethnically a different kettle of fish for Russia. There are also something like 8.5 million Russians who live in the Ukraine according to Wiki. I doubt that Russia would let the Ukraine jump the fence without a huge catfight. Is NATO willing to put the world at risk for the Ukraine?

[Helen of Annoy]

I read a lot of hilarious comments in both yours and Mikolaj's last posts but, diligently, as advised by the Mods, I'll refrain from commenting and derailing. So back on topic,

I agree with Steve that the only reason those old Eastern bloc countries became part of NATO was to deflate Russian influence in Europe. Ukraine isn't part of NATO and the only reasonable interest NATO members would have in backing it in a fight against Russia would be for the same reasons they allowed the other Eastern bloc countries in, to deflate more power away from Russia. The only problem is that, unlike those other Eastern bloc countries, the Ukraine is culturally, strategically, morally and ethnically a different kettle of fish for Russia. There are also something like 8.5 million Russians who live in the Ukraine according to Wiki. I doubt that Russia would let the Ukraine jump the fence without a huge catfight. Is NATO willing to put the world at risk for the Ukraine?

It used to be hilarious to propose germs cause diseases, Neanderthals mated with CroMagnons, Russians mass murdered Poles in Katyn forest and so on. It all comes to its place, you just have to live long enough, my grandma would say.

We became part of NATO because that was the choice of majorities of our populations.

It is our choice because living the soviet or sovietesque totalitarianism feels immensely worse than reading about it.

Many people emigrated to work and live in the West. I never heard of anyone who came back home because it was worse in the West than it was in the quasi-socialism.

It’s not perfect in the West, of course it’s not, it’s almost hard, but you don’t really know what hard means, actually, if you were born and raised in the West.

Of course, you can put our opinion, experience and future aside, you don’t have to care about us, but don’t forget that you will reap that, what you sow.

Ukraine is no different than other Eastern European countries. They want progress, they are sick and tired of totalitarian thieves and oppression. They want their thieves elected in fair elections and they want their godgiven right to say out loud what they think, without fear of disproportional retribution.

(I said disproportional because in your society you may end up paying the fine for saying something outrageously wrong. Saying slightly wrong things in the East can cost you your life. You wouldn’t wish that unto yourself, so don’t wish that unto them specifically or us, humans, in general.)

What makes you think Russians in Ukraine are without exception violently chauvinistic? What if Ukrainian Russians would calmly live in Ukraine, even if it goes back to Europe? Are you sure that separatist leaders are representing an average, common Ukrainian Russian?

After all, is there few or many Russians in the West? And? Are they suffering, were they hunted down by imaginary western fascists? Or they came to the West by their own free will, in search of better future?

Why aren’t they fleeing back to Russia if the West is so rotten and hateful? Why they chose slavery in the West if Russia is so free and it’s raining fried chicken for common people there?

The fight is in progress. It means Russia is willing to put her own future at risk for her imperial dreams.

What was wrong with partnership for peace? What was wrong in putting cold war in the history closet?

Was it too boring suddenly or something?

It was a relief when Russia opened and her economy sprung back to life. This, that is going on now is just too sad for words.

[Mikolaj]

To add not all Russians in Russia support military actions in Ukraine so its hilarious to think that all Russians in Ukraine support it.

Its Putin government who support it. And similar parties in Russia such as Communist party.

http://en.wikipedia....tests_in_Russia

Anti war congress:

We, the representatives of the Russian intelligentsia feel ourselves obliged to warn the authorities from making historical mistake - the desire to take control of a part of Ukraine, the country which was considered as a brotherly one.

Seems that Putin isnt Russian intelligentsia.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Mikolaj

[Black Red Devil]

It used to be hilarious to propose germs cause diseases, Neanderthals mated with CroMagnons, Russians mass murdered Poles in Katyn forest and so on. It all comes to its place, you just have to live long enough, my grandma would say.

We became part of NATO because that was the choice of majorities of our populations.

It is our choice because living the soviet or sovietesque totalitarianism feels immensely worse than reading about it.

Many people emigrated to work and live in the West. I never heard of anyone who came back home because it was worse in the West than it was in the quasi-socialism.

It’s not perfect in the West, of course it’s not, it’s almost hard, but you don’t really know what hard means, actually, if you were born and raised in the West.

Of course, you can put our opinion, experience and future aside, you don’t have to care about us, but don’t forget that you will reap that, what you sow.

Ukraine is no different than other Eastern European countries. They want progress, they are sick and tired of totalitarian thieves and oppression. They want their thieves elected in fair elections and they want their godgiven right to say out loud what they think, without fear of disproportional retribution.

(I said disproportional because in your society you may end up paying the fine for saying something outrageously wrong. Saying slightly wrong things in the East can cost you your life. You wouldn’t wish that unto yourself, so don’t wish that unto them specifically or us, humans, in general.)

What makes you think Russians in Ukraine are without exception violently chauvinistic? What if Ukrainian Russians would calmly live in Ukraine, even if it goes back to Europe? Are you sure that separatist leaders are representing an average, common Ukrainian Russian?

After all, is there few or many Russians in the West? And? Are they suffering, were they hunted down by imaginary western fascists? Or they came to the West by their own free will, in search of better future?

Why aren’t they fleeing back to Russia if the West is so rotten and hateful? Why they chose slavery in the West if Russia is so free and it’s raining fried chicken for common people there?

The fight is in progress. It means Russia is willing to put her own future at risk for her imperial dreams.

What was wrong with partnership for peace? What was wrong in putting cold war in the history closet?

Was it too boring suddenly or something?

It was a relief when Russia opened and her economy sprung back to life. This, that is going on now is just too sad for words.

Well there you go. Apart from the first paragraph when I started trembling, thinking. "oh no, here comes the Ice Age and Neanderthal origins of Dalmatian inhabitants again" and you lost me for a second or two (apologies to grandma), but I fully agree with the rest you said.

What you say is logical, boats and people flock into Europe via Greece and Lampadusa, to Australia via Indonesia, to the US via Mexico etc, because people want a better life for themselves and their kids. They're running from crime, war, poverty, misery, injustices etc. All understandable. In this case we're talking about a whole country, not an individual or a family, who wants to move west (politically) for economical reasons and protection from a bully.

My point is that papa Bear isn't prepared to let mama Bear go and papa Bear is a strong boy. If the west keeps on sanctioning Russia, Russia may hit back via other financial means (the EU relies heavily on Russian gas for example). Things can easily escalate when people are pushed and become desperate. I'm not saying right or wrong but is the west (NATO) prepared to take it to the limit?

Edited January 30, 2015 by Black Red Devil

[Helen of Annoy]

Well there you go. Apart from the first paragraph when I started trembling, thinking. "oh no, here comes the Ice Age and Neanderthal origins of Dalmatian inhabitants again" and you lost me for a second or two (apologies to grandma), but I fully agree with the rest you said.

What you say is logical, boats and people flock into Europe via Greece and Lampadusa, to Australia via Indonesia, to the US via Mexico etc, because people want a better life for themselves and their kids. They're running from crime, war, poverty, misery, injustices etc. All understandable. In this case we're talking about a whole country, not an individual or a family, who wants to move west (politically) for economical reasons and protection from a bully.

My point is that papa Bear isn't prepared to let mama Bear go and papa Bear is a strong boy. If the west keeps on sanctioning Russia, Russia may hit back via other financial means (the EU relies heavily on Russian gas for example). Things can easily escalate when people are pushed and become desperate. I'm not saying right or wrong but is the west (NATO) prepared to take it to the limit?

Gas myth was debunked this winter. Not a surprise.

The price of oil dropped to relatively realistic level, that was a huge surprise (it’s nice to know the common sense can still override pure greed).

Was everyone prepared to that surprise?

In any case, I love fables. I can totally picture the most awkward bear family violence moment. Papa Bear attempted to maul mama Bear. He said that's because he saw certain Goldilocks in the house, but in reality, papa Bears who maul family members are doing that because they're psychopaths. Since mama Bear is not a masochist, she hit him with frying pan. Papa Bear went to live with his more submissive mistress after that incident, though people say she's not that interested in steady relationship now when the price of honey is falling and papa forgot the honey business was family business and it just doesn't work well without mama.

And some of them lived happily ever after, while others were wondering what possessed them on that day.

[Black Red Devil]

Gas myth was debunked this winter. Not a surprise.

Was it now? Whose winter, the European or Australian? Doesn't really matter anyway.

In May 2014 this happened in case you didn't know.

Russia signs 30-year gas deal with China

Russia's President Vladimir Putin has signed a multi-billion dollar, 30-year gas deal with China.

The deal between Russia's Gazprom and China National Petroleum Corp (CNPC) has been 10 years in the making.

Russia has been keen to find an alternative energy market for its gas as it faces the possibility of European sanctions over the crisis in Ukraine.

[Duke Wellington]

Gas myth was debunked this winter. Not a surprise.

The price of oil dropped to relatively realistic level, that was a huge surprise (it’s nice to know the common sense can still override pure greed).

Was everyone prepared to that surprise?

In any case, I love fables. I can totally picture the most awkward bear family violence moment. Papa Bear attempted to maul mama Bear. He said that's because he saw certain Goldilocks in the house, but in reality, papa Bears who maul family members are doing that because they're psychopaths. Since mama Bear is not a masochist, she hit him with frying pan. Papa Bear went to live with his more submissive mistress after that incident, though people say she's not that interested in steady relationship now when the price of honey is falling and papa forgot the honey business was family business and it just doesn't work well without mama.

And some of them lived happily ever after, while others were wondering what possessed them on that day.

Mama Bear is loyal and obedient to Papa Bear.

However her sisters have all run off with the Milkman Bear!

[Helen of Annoy]

Was it now? Whose winter, the European or Australian? Doesn't really matter anyway.

Well, do you have any links to graphic photos of the victims of the gas shortage in EU?

In May 2014 this happened in case you didn't know.

Russia signs 30-year gas deal with China

Great. The pipeline will be even more majestic than the bridge to Crimea.

Mama Bear is loyal and obedient to Papa Bear.

However her sisters have all run off with the Milkman Bear!

I think we’re talking about different Bears. Yours sound so perverted they’ll probably have a reality show of their own soon enough.

[stevewinn]

Its being reported on the BBC NEWS, Ukraine rebel leader Zakharchenko is to raise 100,000 men. Are these 100,000 men going to be volunteers or does this indicate an escalation by Russia - a possibility of sending troops into the East of Ukraine. (unofficially) but i cannot see the rebels recruiting 100,000 men.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

Its being reported on the BBC NEWS, Ukraine rebel leader Zakharchenko is to raise 100,000 men. Are these 100,000 men going to be volunteers or does this indicate an escalation by Russia - a possibility of sending troops into the East of Ukraine. (unofficially) but i cannot see the rebels recruiting 100,000 men.

My friend told me about a week ago that calls to military are being sent all over Ukraine because there are signs of massive forces from Russia on Ukrainian borders ( 120 tanks at least, not sure about other things - but no official claims from Ukrainian government, not that i am aware of which makes me wonder why - a while ago there were constant ( most likely false ) reports from Ukrainian government about Russian forces crossing border - now when it's true, there are no words about it ). I am so mad since he ( friend from Kiev ) told me about this latest situation, instead of living his best years and having fun he must spend them in war for profiteers. Just pray that things won't escalate, silence is worst thing in situations like this and there are no many news.

[Thanato]

Its being reported on the BBC NEWS, Ukraine rebel leader Zakharchenko is to raise 100,000 men. Are these 100,000 men going to be volunteers or does this indicate an escalation by Russia - a possibility of sending troops into the East of Ukraine. (unofficially) but i cannot see the rebels recruiting 100,000 men.

No but with Russians (Civilians and Soldiers) fighting along side im sure they can get a few thousand more. Especially since Russia is suppling them with Bullets, Beans, and Tanks.

There would no no way the rebels would be able to sustain major combat that they have with just captured munitions and stores.