The Bosnian Pyramid - rewriting human history

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

You’re ganging up against people who come to Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History for precisely that, ancient mysteries and alternative history.

But the point is that the Bosnian pyramid is not a mystery, nor is it unexplained or alternative history - Its a hill !

[Harte]

A person is now considered to be "ganging up" on another person if the first person holds a differing opinion than the second.

If that is true, then Helen is ganging up on us.

Reported.

Harte

[jaylemurph]

Can you name a "civilization" without hierarchy? You should know why hierarchy is important for the concept of civilization. You do claim to have taken lectures.

There is no need to put one stone on another to make a civilization. Is that something you made up or in your lectures?

It's scary outside the box, and you have to make the frank admission there that people exist who know more than you do.

And that's not fair, is it? That people who know more about something might know more than you do? No, Helen here will squawk a little about stupid everyone else is, imply she's that much smarter than the rest of us by virtue of her broadmindedness, and show that she's just as hardline about her own unfounded beliefs as the people she accuses, and then go away again because she doesn't have anything of real substance to add.

--Jaylemurph

[+DieChecker]

A person is now considered to be "ganging up" on another person if the first person holds a differing opinion than the second.

I'm not sure why it is "ganging up" when some says this....

is this.....

It seems to me to be simply the majority understanding what they are looking at.

Edited August 5, 2014 by DieChecker

[+DieChecker]

By not allowing possibilities, you lost your inquisitive mind, and that’s tragedy. Substantial one.

But possibilities should be based on evidence, not on fantasy.

So, “Bosnian pyramids”, or “possible interestingly shaped natural hills with obvious human interventions probably older than officially known timeline accepts with supercool bonus in form of runic writing of undetermined but definitely most exciting age” is something I discuss with great pleasure, there where discussions are possible, which is, sadly, not here.

There have been several people, myself included, who have been very understanding and open to ideas, such as that the Romans altered the hills, and that perhaps the tunnel is a very good archaeological site, if it was done properly. But, I've not seen any replies to the Moderates in the thread. Instead I see yourself attacking the most conservative posters, when what you say you do is ignore them.

Most of these posters that call the Bosnian Pyramids a Hoax are absolutely right in that the majority of the digs showing "man made blocks" are all naturally occurring stone. There can be no argument given the location of these stones running directly into very fine sedimentary layers. The actual pyramids are a complete loss, but the other archaeology that could be done in this valley could be very significant.

If someone finds three new species of birds on a mountaintop and also hoaxes a dragon, that does not make the new species of birds that were discovered any less real, but 100% the hoaxed dragon has to be acknowledged.

Edited August 5, 2014 by DieChecker

[Ichihara]

Talking about offical time line-its amazing how same timeline is always correcting. In last month group of polish archaeologists find village "Affad 23" in Sudan dating 70 000 years BC.

http://www.pasthoriz...ement-unearthed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affad_23

Edited August 5, 2014 by Ichihara

[Harte]

The timeline, established by mainstream Archaeology, is always correcting.

In fact, the system is self-correcting.

Harte

[Ichihara]

In fact, the system is self-correcting.

sadly, very slowly

[stereologist]

As you should have noticed by now, I am ignoring your whole gang.

I’ll make one last exception, this one, to clear it up for you.

You’re ganging up against people who come to Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History for precisely that, ancient mysteries and alternative history.

Why mods allow this, is beyond me.

Jokes are fine, a little vitriol is fine, but you people are incapable of discussion. All you see is your religious stance, you allow no possibilities. That, pardon me, is not scientific at all, that’s pure dogma.

And that would be fine too, if you’re that narrow, so be it, but why do you come to a place named after unexplained if you have whole existence explained? Is it your mission to stop others from doubting your dogma? But you can’t do that, there will always be better and worse theories than yours.

I’ll take a look at any of them, why not?

Is there anything I have to lose if I allow possibility?

By not allowing possibilities, you lost your inquisitive mind, and that’s tragedy. Substantial one.

So, “Bosnian pyramids”, or “possible interestingly shaped natural hills with obvious human interventions probably older than officially known timeline accepts with supercool bonus in form of runic writing of undetermined but definitely most exciting age” is something I discuss with great pleasure, there where discussions are possible, which is, sadly, not here.

I have to actually take my actual unexplained stuff to PMs or other sites because you, with your arrogant bullying, you’re like mosquitoes. I won’t spend more energy on swatting you than actually discussing what I want to discuss because it’s ****en worth discussing in my own ******* opinion, as good as yours.

There, that sums it up.

Now continue repeating your mantras, maybe they become true if you repeat them often enough.

*kicks the box*

No one is ganging up against anyone. That's absurd. That is as ridiculous as claiming that the natural hills in Bosnia are pyramids.

What happens is that people use science against you and point out the numerous fallacies that the pyramid lovers try to overlook. It is science that shows that the hills are natural. The dogma comes from those begging that the hills are pyramids. If there were any evidence to support that position please bring it forward, In the meantime I and others will follow the evidence which makes it abundantly clear that the hills are natural.

Yes you do have something to lose by accepting the claims of people like Semir. You lose time following up on that stupidity which is so easily shown to be a fraud. You waste time eliminating such trash when it could be used to follow real mysteries.

You are free to go wherever you want. There are plenty of sites dedicated to making people stupid. Feel free to go there.

The rest of us know that the Bosnian hills are natural and that the fraud being perpetrated by Semir does nothing at all to advance people.

[stereologist]

[/size]

sadly, very slowly

Do you think it is sad to take time to discuss the issues and to check and double check the information? I certainly don't.

[scorpiosonic]

*SNIP*

If someone finds three new species of birds on a mountaintop and also hoaxes a dragon, that does not make the new species of birds that were discovered any less real, but 100% the hoaxed dragon has to be acknowledged.

True, but the hoax claim detracts from that person's credibility, and this would lead (some) ppl to question the legit discoveries...even w/ legit proof. (Photoshoppers can do wonders these days.)

Edited August 6, 2014 by scorpiosonic

[+DieChecker]

True, but the hoax claim detracts from that person's credibility, and this would lead (some) ppl to question the legit discoveries...even w/ legit proof. (Photoshoppers can do wonders these days.)

True, which is why I'd suggest Semir take a step back from digging at the site and allow trained archaeologists to do all the remaining digging.

[aquatus1]

Unfortunatly so. I am reminded of the Archeoraptor, which was found to be a hoax made up from three different fossils. Many reputable researchers tend to shy away from it, even though, as it turns out, one of the fossils used does seem to come from a previously unidentified prehistoric raptor.

[Helen of Annoy]

Talking about offical time line-its amazing how same timeline is always correcting. In last month group of polish archaeologists find village "Affad 23" in Sudan dating 70 000 years BC.

http://www.pasthoriz...ement-unearthed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affad_23

Excellent example, thank you for links.

I hope Osypinskis’ team is safe and their work won’t be disrupted with volatile goings-on in Sudan.

It’s good to see there is progress after all, and therefore a chance our picture of history will sloooowly ( ) keep getting a little more accurate.

And since I'm posting, I’d like to re-re-re-repeat, just in case this time some people will actually understand what I'm trying to convey, that it doesn’t have to be a pyramid in Bosnia, but I still simply can’t believe what spectacular negative reactions are there to very obvious and reasonable suggestion the civilization (complete with structures and writing system) is older than officially accepted.

In the now locked last BP thread I posted links to 9,000-11,000 years old runic writing (to any layman eye) / early moon calendar (to eyes of the professionals who must not mention runes that old).

It’s only few hundred km away from Visoko (Bosnia), in Sinicic spilja (Croatia). That finding is official. The official interpretation of the finding is what it is like, but the finding itself is undisputed (by real scientific community, of course it’s not good enough for Internet experts).

So, if people were writing/drawing moon calendar in Sinicic cave roughly 10,000 years ago, if we all know of Vinca culture roughly 5,000 years ago, what exactly is so shocking in possible findings of amazingly old culture in Visoko? It’s the same area.

People are frothing at Osmanagic’s interpretations like they matter.

What matters is Visoko with its actual findings. Not happy with new-agey interpretations? Go with moon calendar. But for god’s sake, don’t discard whole site because of personal prejudices, it’s just too irrational.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[Harte]

[/size]

sadly, very slowly

Yes, well, it takes time to find stuff, such as your example.

Note that they're still not certain concerning the date.

Harte

[seeder]

Excellent example, thank you for links.

I hope Osypinskis’ team is safe and their work won’t be disrupted with volatile goings-on in Sudan.

It’s good to see there is progress after all, and therefore a chance our picture of history will sloooowly ( ) keep getting a little more accurate.

And since I'm posting, I’d like to re-re-re-repeat, just in case this time some people will actually understand what I'm trying to convey, that it doesn’t have to be a pyramid in Bosnia, but I still simply can’t believe what spectacular negative reactions are there to very obvious and reasonable suggestion the civilization (complete with structures and writing system) is older than officially accepted.

In the now locked last BP thread I posted links to 9,000-11,000 years old runic writing (to any layman eye) / early moon calendar (to eyes of the professionals who must not mention runes that old).

It’s only few hundred km away from Visoko (Bosnia), in Sinicic spilja (Croatia). That finding is official. The official interpretation of the finding is what it is like, but the finding itself is undisputed (by real scientific community, of course it’s not good enough for Internet experts).

So, if people were writing/drawing moon calendar in Sinicic cave roughly 10,000 years ago, if we all know of Vinca culture roughly 5,000 years ago, what exactly is so shocking in possible findings of amazingly old culture in Visoko? It’s the same area.

People are frothing at Osmanagic’s interpretations like they matter.

What matters is Visoko with its actual findings. Not happy with new-agey interpretations? Go with moon calendar. But for god’s sake, don’t discard whole site because of personal prejudices, it’s just too irrational.

problem is Semir carved the ancient writing himself, even one of his team went public with it..

[Harte]

And since I'm posting, I’d like to re-re-re-repeat, just in case this time some people will actually understand what I'm trying to convey, that it doesn’t have to be a pyramid in Bosnia, but I still simply can’t believe what spectacular negative reactions are there to very obvious and reasonable suggestion the civilization (complete with structures and writing system) is older than officially accepted.

Every "earliest" civilization ever discovered was older than the officially accepted oldest civilization at that time.

Nobody knew anything at all about Sumer until the late 1800's. At that time, it was thought that the Egyptian civilization was about a thousand years older than we today know it to be.

So it is perfectly legitimate to speculate that older civilizations could be out there. But it is not acceptable to claim a culture was a civilization without evidence of that culture meeting several (at least) of the criteria used to define the term "civilization."

The people that erected Gobekli Tepe (for example) were, by definition, a culture, not a civilization.

Harte

[scorpiosonic]

Thanx Seeder, I tried to tell her same.

Speaking of accurate site dating; has an accurate date been assigned to Gobekli Tepe?

According to Nat Geo: "....The assemblage was built some 11,600 years ago, seven millennia before the Great Pyramid of Giza. It contains the oldest known temple. Indeed, Göbekli Tepe is the oldest known example of monumental architecture—the first structure human beings put together that was bigger and more complicated than a hut. When these pillars were erected, so far as we know, nothing of comparable scale existed in the world............"

Edited August 6, 2014 by scorpiosonic

[questionmark]

Thanx Seeder, I tried to tell her same.

Speaking of accurate site dating; has an accurate date been assigned to Gobekli Tepe?

In as accurate as you can do it with carbon dating the oldest possible date is 10th millennium BCE. The newest find is the 8th century BCE. Which means that the place was operational for 2000 years.

If you are interested and read German, a catalog of Central Anatolia ₁₄C dating can be found here

[pum]

The people that erected Gobekli Tepe (for example) were, by definition, a culture, not a civilization.

Harte

Nobody here claim that Gobekli Tepe is civilization. I just laugh at Zebra assertion that GT isnt civilization because there is no sign of hierarchy.

I will not be answering on your post because administators banned me. And will probably do it again for gods know reason.

Mihael84

[scorpiosonic]

Thanx, qm...but don't read German, and Nat Geo was close to this age.

[Helen of Annoy]

problem is Semir carved the ancient writing himself, even one of his team went public with it..

One archaeologist, “mysteriously” highly motivated to stop any excavations stated she was told by unnamed member of his team that said member heard someone saw Semir going in and out of the tunnel the night before carvings were made public.

Not even in that wild hearsay there was anyone shameless enough to claim they saw Semir carve anything, they only went that far to insinuate more signs appeared (were added to the existing ones). They didn’t think it was possible to have more signs still covered in dirt, noooo, that wouldn’t fit into general consensus that there can be no carvings in Bosnia, especially that old, in Bosnia, Jesus, that used to house Vinca culture, other less and even less known Neolithic cultures, Neanderthals and god knows what else. All right, cross Neanderthals out, they probably didn’t do this one. Though our picture of them changed radically in so few years.

Anyway, maybe role-models of moral that are leading the witch hunt against Semir have changed their story and made it more directly accusing in the meantime, but at this moment these people have as much credibility to me as Semir has to you.

Which should take us off character assessments and back to very site.

I don’t care what merchants say, what does the stone say?

That it was laid there in the way Mother Nature doesn’t work, but populations in the whole area do, since time immemorial until today (suhozid, traditional dry stone wall).

That a leaf caught between rocks was dated to 30,000+ years (give or take few thousand years to that ridiculous in any way figure).

And that the same structures were also carved with runic-like signs. Comparison with Magyar rovash is years old, I remember reading about it when I wasn’t even wasting my time on UM. So it was before 2008.

Every "earliest" civilization ever discovered was older than the officially accepted oldest civilization at that time.

Nobody knew anything at all about Sumer until the late 1800's. At that time, it was thought that the Egyptian civilization was about a thousand years older than we today know it to be.

So it is perfectly legitimate to speculate that older civilizations could be out there. But it is not acceptable to claim a culture was a civilization without evidence of that culture meeting several (at least) of the criteria used to define the term "civilization."

The people that erected Gobekli Tepe (for example) were, by definition, a culture, not a civilization.

Harte

I believe that strict definitions are not how you’ll get attention and understanding in a forum meant for wide public.

For example, I honestly don’t care if GT people are currently classified as culture, civilization or neither yet. I do care that it was organized society that erected it. (What is “organized” today by definition might differ too from what is “organized” to me.)

But it is not my intention to attempt swaying your opinion in any way, you made your conclusions as I made mine. I believe we both will change our opinions only if each is given new evidence worth considering.

I only ask you to tone the most sceptical sceptic contest down, it's scaring away people whose opinions I'd love to read too.

[seeder]

One archaeologist, “mysteriously” highly motivated to stop any excavations stated she was told by unnamed member of his team that said member heard someone saw Semir going in and out of the tunnel the night before carvings were made public.

Not even in that wild hearsay there was anyone shameless enough to claim they saw Semir carve anything, they only went that far to insinuate more signs appeared (were added to the existing ones).

One of his former employees, Nadija Nukic, told a Bosnian newspaper that carvings on stones that Osmanagić characterizes as dating from ancient times were not present when the stones were first uncovered but were later inscribed by his team, an accusation that Osmanagić denies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_pyramid_claims#Scholarly_reception

[Helen of Annoy]

One of his former employees, Nadija Nukic, told a Bosnian newspaper that carvings on stones that Osmanagić characterizes as dating from ancient times were not present when the stones were first uncovered but were later inscribed by his team, an accusation that Osmanagić denies.

http://en.wikipedia....larly_reception

She told, he denied... so we can’t know for sure, can we?

Why are we again at people involved in contemporary finding of Visoko tunnels?

These were found and forgotten for number of times through their long history. It’s the tunnels that intrigue me, not the intrigues spun around them.

And again, what does the stone say? Was it examined by impartial experts? Those who don’t believe in advance that the signs must have been carved in recently?

Maybe we’re missing, for example, 1,000 years old interesting finding just because of the atmosphere of necessary “debunking” it to nothing? It’s quite possible, if not probable, in my own opinion, that tunnels are ridiculously old but carvings relatively much younger.

[pum]

For example, I honestly don’t care if GT people are currently classified as culture, civilization or neither yet. I do care that it was organized society that erected it. (What is “organized” today by definition might differ too from what is “organized” to me.)

Helen,

before they banned me again, few insertions.

GT is lively archaeological site. Most of the site isnt excavated. Last time I checked only 20% was excavated. Or something about that number. Meaning we might find Gods know what.

So was that civilization or not we cant possibly know at this moment. What we have right now tell us that wasnt civilization.

What these online experts like Zebra and Farte obviously dont know is that concept of civilization is changing as we go back and forth trough history.Being civilization in 19 century or 21 century it isnt by defenition same as civilization lets say 1 century BC.

Hierarchy by any means dont have nothing with civilization. Its political organization which we look for. Not did they been hierarchical or not. We saw anarchistic societies in our history whos economy skyrocket.

These online experts judge on societies their know or they known they existed. Leaving no place of possibility that society could be organized in manner we dont know and understand. What strikes me the most is fact that these online experts here dont know nothing about known societies with anarchism as polititcal organization.

Anarchism in Spanish civil war is fine example where society flourished. Even they were in war. Their economy flourished. While Francos Spain isnt. Or when communists took charge of NE Spain.

Its capitalists and communists propaganda "oh we must have pyramid organization".Or you have monolithic monarchy like cccp party or you can choose between two (who are part of same team) as in case of USA.

But who mI to argue with Farte and Zebra...sigh

Edited August 6, 2014 by pum