American Police State

[aquatus1]

Why is it a "movie trope" to live by the ideology of 'I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees'? It's not even a gun issue. Yes, gun enthusiasts use the motto, but others (including those before guns) have lived by the motto. Hell, you can be a pacifist and live by that motto.

Living by it isn't a movie trope. Using it to describe your life, on the other hand, starts blurring the difference between reality and fantasy. A person who owns a gun and uses it to shoot someone breaking into their home in the middle of the night is a person who lives by the trope. A person who claims they stared death in the eyes and survived is writing a story.

[+OverSword]

trope?

[+OverSword]

No, those are words of a man who has looked death in the eye and survived it. What have you done?

I may be wrong but I believe Aquatis is an honorable veteran of our more recent conflicts, and even though I find him generally abrasive he at least earned the right to be so.

[aquatus1]

no, that does not imply it, it is one of the possibilities,

Okay...it wasn't the one I was referring to.

another is that the horse stopped taking commands and ignores the rider altogether.

You are still riding the horse, and the reins are not there merely for decoration. As long as you control the head, you don't to use the whip. Indeed, using the whip may cause you to lose control of the head.

I've also got some other pretty good metaphors regarding leather and whips, but I don't think they would be appropriate at this time.

[aztek]

. Governments don't fear dead soldiers; they fear the bad press dead soldiers generate.

are we still talking about police state? i do not see how soldiers dead or alive have anything to do with it, clearly op point is police misconduct and how common it is now, and how it is for the most part goes unpunished, and becoming a norm.

[+OverSword]

Agreed. Historically, there has never been an established democratic government that has been suborned into a dictatorship.

Rome?

[aztek]

You are still riding the horse, and the reins are not there merely for decoration.

you really think it is that simple as horse, leather, and whips??? lol.

than i got a simple answer, if horse stops responding it is replaced. or if dog bites the owner it is put down,

Edited July 31, 2014 by aztek

[green_dude777]

Living by it isn't a movie trope. Using it to describe your life, on the other hand, starts blurring the difference between reality and fantasy. A person who owns a gun and uses it to shoot someone breaking into their home in the middle of the night is a person who lives by the trope. A person who claims they stared death in the eyes and survived is writing a story.

That's an awfully broad stroked opinion. I personally have been on the wrong end of the barrel of a gun. It wasn't a fantasy, or Hollywood plot line... just a typical attempted mugging.

And no, no one died. I don't carry a firearm. Funny thing, when I reported them to the police, they did nothing except give the advice of "don't go back that way".

Is this anecdotal? Yes. But when one presents an absolute statement, you only need one instance to refute.

[+Hammerclaw]

You've had your gun pried from your cold dead fingers, while your women cowered in fear behind you, after looking death in the eye and surviving?

No, I don't think your reality has been anywhere near that fantastical. You life has probably been in danger. I have no problem believing that. The whole steel-eyed, Clint Eastwood (when he isn't directing Jersey Boys), "looked death in the faith and made it back away" thing? That's after the fact embellishment.

I hardly need the excuse of not understanding something or being uncomfortable with it to belittle it. Though I have yet to find a topic that makes me so uncomfortable that I am not willing to discuss it within the boundaries of the forum rules.

Yes, it is. Which is why some people prefer to describe their lives and motivations with movie tropes instead.

You're certainly quite entertaining with your pompous irreverence. If that's your schtick, it works. You're a good moderator.

[aquatus1]

I know it's easy to be an armchair QB,

Well sure. If it took effort, none of us would be posting so much.

but too many times I see police get a free pass....Snip...The police and politicians are not held to the same standards as average citizens and if you think they are you don't pay much attention.

Specific examples can be thrown back and forth all day, and not get us anywhere. The question isn't whether these things happen or not. The question is whether or not they are statistically significant enough to be acted on, or if they are the residual of actions that have already been taken to reduce the amount of times they occur.

The EPA mandates that only a certain amount of insect parts per thousand be permissible in cartons of orange juice. You can point out all the individual insect parts in individual cartons, but unless there is some solution being offered that would get rid of those, the insect parts are going to remain the inevitable consequence of not being able to regulate perfection. If all the changes made so far result in only a small amount of insect parts in a thousand, it would be irrational to claim that the system is faulty and needs to be rehauled because there are still insect parts in the OJ. A claim needs to be put in its proper context, or the claim becomes meaningless.

Sure, your average police officers is a good, or even very good person but that doesn't stop the system itself from allowing them to literally get away with murder.

As I said earlier, I haven't seen any better options being proposed.

[+OverSword]

As I said earlier, I haven't seen any better options being proposed.

Well since I believe the system holds them to lower standards than you or I, we will just have to disagree.

[aquatus1]

Rome?

That's a little different. Rome actually created the office of Dictator. The Dictator was elected by senate. They actually had a few different ones in different capacities. It's actually pretty interesting, and well worth perusing the history books describing it.

[supervike]

As I said earlier, I haven't seen any better options being proposed.

If that's the point of these boards, we may as well wipe 99% off.

Sometimes, the discussion itself has merit.

[aquatus1]

you really think it is that simple as horse, leather, and whips??? lol.

No, see, the entire concept of metaphors is to...

Right, not rational, never mind. I keep doing this!

than i got a simple answer, if horse stops responding it is replaced. or if dog bites the owner it is put down,

That is indeed a simple answer, and it well demonstrates my earlier point. Taking responsibility is a lot of work, and most people are unwilling to put in that amount of work. They would deal with a problem by shooting it.

[aquatus1]

That's an awfully broad stroked opinion. I personally have been on the wrong end of the barrel of a gun. It wasn't a fantasy, or Hollywood plot line... just a typical attempted mugging.

Yes, it is not an uncommon thing. And I have a somewhat unjustified amount of respect for you having gone through that. I would not, however, be able to listen to you recount the story using lines from a spaghetti western, without trying to hide my giggles in my beer.

Is this anecdotal? Yes. But when one presents an absolute statement, you only need one instance to refute.

What are you refuting?

[aquatus1]

You're certainly quite entertaining with your pompous irreverence. If that's your schtick, it works. You're a good moderator.

Thank you, I have gotten a lot of "likes". Feel free to discuss the actual topics, however. Heaven knows I don't need others helping me eat the scenery.

[aztek]

. They would deal with a problem by shooting it.

and they are right, if a dog bit you once you do not give it a chance to do it again, you replace it, you "work" with it, it will bite you again,

[+OverSword]

That's a little different. Rome actually created the office of Dictator. The Dictator was elected by senate. They actually had a few different ones in different capacities. It's actually pretty interesting, and well worth perusing the history books describing it.

Nazi Germany?

[+OverSword]

Thank you, I have gotten a lot of "likes".

Not compared to how many posts you've made. Try the fun and games section they pass them out pretty freely there

edit to add, I would dearly love to make up some lies about you!

Edited July 31, 2014 by OverSword

[aquatus1]

Well since I believe the system holds them to lower standards than you or I, we will just have to disagree.

I don't really believe it is a matter of lower or higher standards, but rather, different ones. Other than that, as I said, for me to agree is a matter of statistical representation.

If that's the point of these boards, we may as well wipe 99% off.

Sometimes, the discussion itself has merit.

Absolutely. We've discussed a lot here without actually getting much of anywhere.

[aquatus1]

Nazi Germany?

I tend to think post-WWI Germany kind of personified multiple collapsed governments prior to a dictator taking charge.

[+Hammerclaw]

Thank you, I have gotten a lot of "likes". Feel free to discuss the actual topics, however. Heaven knows I don't need others helping me eat the scenery.

Most certainly not!

[aquatus1]

Not compared to how many posts you've made. Try the fun and games section they pass them out pretty freely there

edit to add, I would dearly love to make up some lies about you!

Statistics, Oversword, statistics, and in their proper context!

It isn't about how many likes I've had since I have been on the board way back in 2004 after the war. It's how many likes have I had since I returned to the board back in March 2013 (after a one year sabbatical), and since I rejoined the moderators six months ago. We didn't have the "Like" thing when I left.

The closest I have come to Fun and Games, though, is a bit of poetry I wrote several years ago, that got resurrected (and liked!) a few months ago (blatant plug).

[supervike]

Absolutely. We've discussed a lot here without actually getting much of anywhere.

Well, to be fair, the thread has gotten derailed. I think the OP is an interesting discussion, it would be nice to get back on that.

[Likely Guy]

The closest I have come to Fun and Games, though, is a bit of poetry I wrote several years ago, that got resurrected (and liked!) a few months ago (blatant plug).

Without a link, it didn't happen.

Well, to be fair, the thread has gotten derailed. I think the OP is an interesting discussion, it would be nice to get back on that.

Oops, my bad.