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Ben Masada

The Atheist's Dilemma

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White Crane Feather

Thank you, but I rather not.

Well I answerd your question rather thoroughly. It's up to you if you want to learn the answer. :shrug:

Edited by White Crane Feather

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Jeanne dArc

Thank you for answering. In the "quantum world", why do you think that time and causality didn't even exist? Would not time be contained in the singularity? And if the cause was perhaps a black hole in another dimension, what caused that dimension and the black hole to exist?

Edit: I read Br Cornelius' response re: why causality breaks down at the quantum level after I wrote my response, so I get that position, however I'm not convinced. The part about time still stands, why would time not exist in the singularity? I don't get that as I thought the singularity contained everything. And if the cause was perhaps a black hole in another dimension, what caused that dimension and the black hole to exist?

To be fair, I don't perfectly understand it all, but Stephen Hawking for example has written extensively on this: that time began at the Big Bang. As I understand it, time (like space) "inside" a singularity becomes completely meaningless (mathematically, at a singularity point, both temporal and spatial dimensions are multiplied by negative-x multiplied by zero). So in a sort of a mathematical, abstract way, it's kind of there, I suppose, but it doesn't apply at all. A singularity is literally zero-dimensional, both spatially and temporally. When you hear people say that physics breaks down inside of a singularity, it applies to everything.

And as for the black hole in another universe, presumably it would have been caused by similar processes to our universe, and that universe would probably have likewise been born from a black hole in another universe. Of course since we know absolutely nothing about these speculative universes, it's impossible to say if there could have been a "prime universe" that spawned all the others: personally I don't think that would be necessary, because on a supercosmic/hyperspace scale like that I imagine our linear understanding of time probably wouldn't apply to every universe. A bit complicated, but yeah. That's a possibility. It's also possible our universe is the only one, and it began from a singularity which essentially "metamorphosed" into space-time as we know it.

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Aftermath

Thank you and I appreciate that you took the time to explain it to me.

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Jeanne dArc

Thank you and I appreciate that you took the time to explain it to me.

No prob ^_^ Hope I did it some justice, haha

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Shibolet

The beginning of the universe has replaced the eye as an example some theists use to prove a god of some kind. It used to be, you can't explain how the eye evolved, there for god. Now we have you can't explain how the universe began, therefore god. It claims knowledge of something we simply do not yet fully understand.

When it comes to the Universe, we can't even claim for sure the Big Bang was the beginning of the universe. The Big Bang is simply where the universe we observe now began, but the universe could have existed prior to that, in a different form. Our understanding of the universe at large is still a work in progress, and one that in some ways the tools we have developed simply aren't good enough yet to answer. Trying to answer that with god, when the data isn't in yet, is the same as when people held up the eye as an example of proof of god, which was later overthrown when the evolution of the eye was fully understood.

Okay, No god! I agree not to talk about God. Let me give you the benefit of the doubt and let's dance according to your tune.

The universe exists and it has been claimed by Science that it had a beginning. I want to forget about God here and ask you:

Who or what caused the universe to begin if it could not have caused its own beginning? Would like to answer me this question?

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Jeanne dArc

Okay, No god! I agree not to talk about God. Let me give you the benefit of the doubt and let's dance according to your tune.

The universe exists and it has been claimed by Science that it had a beginning. I want to forget about God here and ask you:

Who or what caused the universe to begin if it could not have caused its own beginning? Would like to answer me this question?

The universe could have caused its own beginning. Problem solved.

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Paranoid Android

Okay, No god! I agree not to talk about God. Let me give you the benefit of the doubt and let's dance according to your tune.

The universe exists and it has been claimed by Science that it had a beginning. I want to forget about God here and ask you:

Who or what caused the universe to begin if it could not have caused its own beginning? Would like to answer me this question?

When all else fails, resurrect your own thread to try and argue what you've argued over several threads and refusing to listen to what members have written. Considering how every single other thread you have posted in with this material, I really doubt much can be gained from keeping this thread open. Honestly, is there any chance that the 91 pages of this thread will end ANY differently to the 30 pages of the last thread I closed, and the multiple other threads you derailed to ask this question?

For the record, it's not that you aren't making a point, it's that you refuse to engage with people when they express their alternative opinion, you ignore it, then a few pages later say you are willing to listen to their explanations, then ignore those explanations and then a few pages later say you are willing to listen, when clearly you aren't. This forum is not your personal soap box, you have a pattern of making this claim and then not engaging with the response, you just want to repeat yourself ad infinitum, I believe that classifies under the rule of "preaching" and therefore make the following statement:

~ Closed~

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