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libstaK

Can the West Live with ISIS?

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TSS

I'm going to lecture you for your early withdrawal and your lack of going back. Clearly your own government doesn't see the responsibility that you do. It's cognitive dissonance to talk about this "more than a moral responsibility" while excusing your government's dereliction in the same breath. It's also an entitlement complex to even see you laughing about me paying for this nonsense while you sit on your hands and make exclamations.

Not keeping up with the conversation again are you! I've been critical of my governments role in this from day 1. So you'd need to lecture people who's opinion is to not go back, but then that ties into your own view, so you can't do that either can you. Backed yourself into a bit of corner here really haven't you.....don't worry, we'll just forget you did that shall we and move on :tu:

No, you don't displace people by force dude. If you do, you should be bombed yourself. Spacing out on the difference between voluntarism and force wasn't a good idea here.

Then you are only offering them 2 options - move abroad or face IS. Was there a third option you forgot to add, if so, do tell??

Iraqi society is not my/our/your job in the world. That remains to be up to the people of Iraq no matter what ideas you may have or what crayons you color with.

Speaking of crayons - we teach kids from an early age about responsibility, that when you break something you should do all you can to fix it. I hate to break this to you Yam, because it seems to be a bitter pill for you to take, but both our countries smashed that country to pieces, then promised to rebuild it - we didn't rebuild it, now the people of that country are asking for help - so we have a responsibility to offer whatever help they require. So it is our job, there isn't anybody else on the planet more responsible for doing that job...because nobody else smashed the country the pieces.

So you can sit here for as long as you wish and dream up as many excuses as you like as to why you should do nothing but offer limited assistance.....none of it though excuses doing very little in the face of what those people are going through.

My minimal looks like a maximal when compared with what your country is doing. Have you condemned it yet elsewhere on the forum?

I've condemned it in the thread relating to the subject at hand. That's how a forum works.

Edited by The Sky Scanner

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TSS

d/p

Edited by The Sky Scanner

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Yamato

Not keeping up with the conversation again are you! I've been critical of my governments role in this from day 1. So you'd need to lecture people who's opinion is to not go back, but then that ties into your own view, so you can't do that either can you. Backed yourself into a bit of corner here really haven't you.....don't worry, we'll just forget you did that shall we and move on :tu:

Then you are only offering them 2 options - move abroad or face IS. Was there a third option you forgot to add, if so, do tell??

Speaking of crayons - we teach kids from an early age about responsibility, that when you break something you should do all you can to fix it. I hate to break this to you Yam, because it seems to be a bitter pill for you to take, but both our countries smashed that country to pieces, then promised to rebuild it - we didn't rebuild it, now the people of that country are asking for help - so we have a responsibility to offer whatever help they require. So it is our job, there isn't anybody else on the planet more responsible for doing that job...because nobody else smashed the country the pieces.

So you can sit here for as long as you wish and dream up as many excuses as you like as to why you should do nothing but offer limited assistance.....none of it though excuses doing very little in the face of what those people are going through.

I've condemned it in the thread relating to the subject at hand. That's how a forum works.

What's backed into a corner about agreeing on something? Your government is lost at the switch.

People need to determine their own options. Again that's a part of self-determination. Maybe when you don't have it, you'll appreciate it? I can determine what I think are appropriate options for my own country as well. As can you.

And all this time, you still haven't even mentioned what you would do. A lot of rhetoric, nothing specific.

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TSS

What's backed into a corner about agreeing on something? Your government is lost at the switch.

Because you are agreeing with me about my own countries lack of involvement, then disagreeing and standing by your stance that your own country shouldn't play are far larger role too....given your country is the majority share-holder of the misery caused to those people I find your stance hypocritical.

People need to determine their own options. Again that's a part of self-determination. Maybe when you don't have it, you'll appreciate it? I can determine what I think are appropriate options for my own country as well. As can you.

Only it's hard for tens of thousands of Iraqis to determine their own options now, since IS put them in the ground.

And all this time, you still haven't even mentioned what you would do. A lot of rhetoric, nothing specific.

More special forces on the ground to call in air strikes on IS positions, an intensified air campaign against them, troops to back-up and secure the drop zones and set-up safer areas for deploying humanitarian aid, buffer zones around these areas to set-up safe areas for these people whilst this mess is being dealt with. Join the french in arming the kurds, supply better equipment to the Iraqi military and provide men to help fight and co-ordinate their attacks (they're a young army, and it appears badly organised, that needs addressing to help them avoid going through this route again)....squeeze IS further and further until they are surrounded on all sides.....then ask the Iraqi military what they want to do with them...Political pressure until there is a more representative government which includes the Sunni elements (which is kind of being done anyway), help in whatever way necessary to secure Iraqs boarders with Syria and then asses the situation after that......if they still want help with certain areas after that then offer the help needed, if they don't then leave..

Edit to add - i'll have to catch up with any reply you give another time, working away for the next 2 days now.

Edited by The Sky Scanner

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Yamato

Because you are agreeing with me about my own countries lack of involvement, then disagreeing and standing by your stance that your own country shouldn't play are far larger role too....given your country is the majority share-holder of the misery caused to those people I find your stance hypocritical.

Actually, I don't agree with the Obushma and I never did. If I had my way we wouldn't have caused the misery in the first place. You'd have been there all by yourself. So not retreating from that position is hardly hypocritical.

Only it's hard for tens of thousands of Iraqis to determine their own options now, since IS put them in the ground.

Millions, dude. The whole of the people are the only people who can decide what kind of Iraq they want their country to be. Not the US/UK wonder-twins.

More special forces on the ground to call in air strikes on IS positions, an intensified air campaign against them, troops to back-up and secure the drop zones and set-up safer areas for deploying humanitarian aid, buffer zones around these areas to set-up safe areas for these people whilst this mess is being dealt with. Join the french in arming the kurds, supply better equipment to the Iraqi military and provide men to help fight and co-ordinate their attacks (they're a young army, and it appears badly organised, that needs addressing to help them avoid going through this route again)....squeeze IS further and further until they are surrounded on all sides.....then ask the Iraqi military what they want to do with them...Political pressure until there is a more representative government which includes the Sunni elements (which is kind of being done anyway), help in whatever way necessary to secure Iraqs boarders with Syria and then asses the situation after that......if they still want help with certain areas after that then offer the help needed, if they don't then leave..

So war, war, and more war. Is your country doing any of that? You surely are pleased with Obama's airstrikes; so, you're welcome. Have some popcorn?

Edit to add - i'll have to catch up with any reply you give another time, working away for the next 2 days now.

Don't work too hard bro.

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Yamato

A Brit whose country started it all is preaching that as an American, I'm the majority shareholder in this mess. We should have never adopted the problems left and created in this region by a crumbling Empire the sun never set on. The oil wasn't worth it.

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bee

Kyle Kulinski isn't too aware is he? He needs to do some research on the terms: Taqiya, Tawriyah, Kitman, and Muruna. I recognize some of this especially from the clerics.

lol....him again!!!...

I said in previous post with another one of his videos, that he was an Alex Jones wannabe and I still think that....

What some people will do for internet 'fame'.... :rolleyes:...

Like..put a big black piece of material across your bedroom wall, get a BIG dramatic microphone..

put some books in the shot so you look clever..and then spout off...

saying what you THINK people want to hear....ie. the standard (insincere) boo hoo

:w00t:

.

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and then

lol....him again!!!...

I said in previous post with another one of his videos, that he was an Alex Jones wannabe and I still think that....

What some people will do for internet 'fame'.... :rolleyes:...

Like..put a big black piece of material across your bedroom wall, get a BIG dramatic microphone..

put some books in the shot so you look clever..and then spout off...

saying what you THINK people want to hear....ie. the standard (insincere) boo hoo

:w00t:

.

He put me in mind of a rabid poodle! :w00t:

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RavenHawk

*trying very, very hard to ignore*

I preferred your original comment. You are someone that has been fooled by the deception of Islam. The following is a good example of that deception:

In 2007, Sheikh Ali Gomaa, the Grand Mufti of Egypt, stated In regard to a Muslim’s right to renounce Islam and to join another (apostasy), his initial rulings sounded lenient. The Washington Post-Newsweek forum in English was one of the forums that published his decisions. BTW, he is Sunni (Shafi’i).

“The essential question before us is: Can a person who is a Muslim choose a religion other than Islam? The answer is yes, they can, because the Quran says, ‘Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion,’ (Quran 109:6mc) and, ‘Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosever will, let him disbelieve,’ (Quran18:29mc) and, ‘There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is distinct from error’ (Quran 2:256).”

He added, “These verses from the Quran discuss a freedom that God affords all people. But from a religious prospective, the act of abandoning one’s religion is a sin punishable by God on the Day of Judgment. If the case in Question is one of merely rejecting faith, then there is no worldly punishment.” He went on to state, “If, however, the crime of undermining the foundations of the society is added to the sin of apostasy, then the case must be referred to a judicial system whose role is to protect the integrity of the society…..According to Islam, it is not permitted for Muslims to reject their faith, so if a Muslim were to leave Islam and adopt another religion, they would thereby be committing a sin in the eyes of Islam. Religious belief and practice is a personal matter, and society only intervenes when that personal matter becomes public and threatens the well-being of its members.”

A few days later, the Grand Mufti, issued another statement. This time he was speaking in Arabic in Cairo and what he said was completely different: “What I actually said was that Islam prohibits a Muslim from changing his religion and it’s a crime that must be punished.”

Can you not “feel” the doublespeak reeking off Gomaa’s statements? This is typical when conversing with Muslims. Being a Grand Mufti means that he is one of the ultimate subject matter experts in authority on the Quran so what he says carries much weight. He was being masterfully deceptive and dishonest. He was saying that you can *choose* to do anything at any time, but to *act* on it is something different (and punishable) is the basis of his message. Surah 109 is more of a 6 ayah psalm than anything else. What it doesn’t mention is the punishment for disbelief. It is not a Que Sera Sera Surah. The rest of ayah 18:29 states: “Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place.” He doesn’t complete the thought as that second part is a punitive consequence. Why? 2:256 is misleading and caps off the other two coming off sounding very lenient. There is *compulsion* and the right direction is to submit to Islam. Anything else is in error. But the non-believer will insert their own sensibilities and the right direction becomes something else. This is the desired affect because now, the rest of his message is hidden. It would go without question. This is clearly Tawriya or Kitman. When listening to Muslim clerics, one needs to keep these tactics in mind.

He says “A freedom that God affords all people” does sound inviting but when you consider that Allah allows non believers (when he isn’t forcing them to) to reject the true faith are condemned. The freedom to reject Islam is about the same freedom as playing Russian Roulette with a full cylinder. He then makes a link between “merely rejecting the faith” and “undermining the foundations of the society”. In Islam, there is no distinction. Muslims are not afforded this freedom. But because most non-believers do not understand the hierarchy Muslims put on humanity, it sounds perfectly intuitive to them. This plays on the sensibilities of the non-believer; the Muslim apostate is merely changing religions, just changing the name Allah for Yahweh, GOD, Buddha, or Jesus. The belief in the Supreme Being is still intact. In Western thinking, this is perfectly acceptable but to the Muslim, this is Shirk. Telling a Muslim to ignore Shirk is like telling a Christian that Jesus is not the Son of GOD.

Knowing that in Islam there are situations where one can publicly reject the faith (Taqiya) but it’s not what the non-believer understands that to mean. The sin of apostasy is a threat to the foundation of the Ummah; the Muslim society is in danger and must be defended. It cannot allow even just one to leave the faith. For a Muslim, there is no other faith but Islam. And that will usually lead to condemnation in a “Muslim judicial system” and probably put to death.

Here’s a good explanation of those four words that I asked you to research. I bet you never even tried to find out for yourself. You were probably afraid that I might be right?? If you don’t like the site, you are free to provide alternatives.

http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/139-louis-palme/1095-knowing-four-arabic-words-may-save-our-civilization-from-islamic-takeover.html

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MJNYC

I hope it will, but unless someone makes it their business to do so then it might be a long, bloody time before it happens. :(

I hope Obama wakes up because if he doesn't they will be knocking on our door and not with their knuckles. :(

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Yamato

I hope Obama wakes up because if he doesn't they will be knocking on our door and not with their knuckles. :(

We're all but asking for another 9/11 already. Obama's not going to wake up. After the next gigantic terrorist attack hits us, we still won't have a clue why we're being bombed. The same questions that were asked 13 years ago will get dusted off again. The same political ignorance we had in 2001 will be transparent in both our government and media. People in this country seem too stupid to wake up; if they haven't yet they probably never will. They're just shills to the foreign policy trying to accomplish whatever for whoever, and most of them don't even know it.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

We're all but asking for another 9/11 already. Obama's not going to wake up. After the next gigantic terrorist attack hits us, we still won't have a clue why we're being bombed. The same questions that were asked 13 years ago will get dusted off again. The same political ignorance we had in 2001 will be transparent in both our government and media. People in this country seem too stupid to wake up; if they haven't yet they probably never will. They're just shills to the foreign policy trying to accomplish whatever for whoever, and most of them don't even know it.

Absolutely.

We all know in our hearts what is RIGHT and what is WRONG.

People here are showing - for sure, they always think that what their authority figures say and do is RIGHT. they never question it. German people always thought the Fuhrer was right, too.

It's called "Sheeple-ism"

Edited by Earl.Of.Trumps
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and then

Absolutely.

We all know in our hearts what is RIGHT and what is WRONG.

People here are showing - for sure, they always think that what their authority figures say and do is RIGHT. they never question it. German people always thought the Fuhrer was right, too.

It's called "Sheeple-ism"

Osama told us it was about us being on holy ground in S.A. Others surely hate us for being a strong ally of Israel. But those who believe that at this point the problem is ALL about our alliance are deluding themselves. When the day comes that the US stops supporting Israel - and it will come - then is when the trouble in the US REALLY begins. You can watch it happen - whether you'll admit the connection is immaterial.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Osama told us it was about us being on holy ground in S.A. Others surely hate us for being a strong ally of Israel. But those who believe that at this point the problem is ALL about our alliance are deluding themselves.

Of course not. Iraq's war against Iran clearly demonstrates that those two nations can have other "problems' besides the US alliance. But the Iran Iraq conflict came and went. The longstanding problem still remains.

When the day comes that the US stops supporting Israel - and it will come - then is when the trouble in the US REALLY begins. You can watch it happen - whether you'll admit the connection is immaterial.

Interesting perspective. Are you suggesting of a Jewish insurgency kind of trouble in the US?

Hmmm, that could make US citizens turn on the Ashkenazi in a quick way and that would not be good for the innocent ones.

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and then

Of course not. Iraq's war against Iran clearly demonstrates that those two nations can have other "problems' besides the US alliance. But the Iran Iraq conflict came and went. The longstanding problem still remains.

Interesting perspective. Are you suggesting of a Jewish insurgency kind of trouble in the US?

Hmmm, that could make US citizens turn on the Ashkenazi in a quick way and that would not be good for the innocent ones.

Nothing so sinister as that. From a biblical perspective the fact is that those who support God's chosen will be blessed. Those who do not will be cursed. The day we walk away the hedge of protection around this country will fall. Think 9-11 but on a MUCH grander scale.

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Uncle Sam

Absolutely.

We all know in our hearts what is RIGHT and what is WRONG.

People here are showing - for sure, they always think that what their authority figures say and do is RIGHT. they never question it. German people always thought the Fuhrer was right, too.

It's called "Sheeple-ism"

I don't follow Obama's orders at all... but I make my own hypothesis what should be done. ISIL is a threat for sure, it needs to be dealt with immediately or our citizens will be paying the price big time. It isn't just a threat to America, it is a threat to the whole world because they won't stop at Iraq or Syria, they will spread to all Muslim nations first recruiting and converting before attacking Western nations or the Communist nations next. The world needs to work together against this threat or face divided strength and weaken resolve. It is more likely they will wait to attack America last, it is an stronger opponent compared to all Muslim nations combined, they need to gather strength first before even making an attempt and I am dead serious about that. It would probably be years before they will have the capability, but they can still strike a blow that will damage our moral and freedom in America, just attacking any infrastructure alone makes the government become paranoid and turns it against the citizens.

Stability must first arrive in middle east before any progress of fixing America's broken nation can begin, ISIL is an threat to any nation that is in civil war or revolution and that doesn't exclude America.

Edited by Uncle Sam
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seeder

deleted, wrong thread

Edited by seeder

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Yamato

Osama told us it was about us being on holy ground in S.A. Others surely hate us for being a strong ally of Israel. But those who believe that at this point the problem is ALL about our alliance are deluding themselves. When the day comes that the US stops supporting Israel - and it will come - then is when the trouble in the US REALLY begins. You can watch it happen - whether you'll admit the connection is immaterial.

There's one sentence I think encapsulates 100% of the reason why we were attacked on 9/11, and that's our military presence in the Middle East, whether directly ourselves or through proxies like Israel or with allies like the UK doesn't matter. It's that we were over there. That Osama bin Laden went home after defeating the USSR in Afghanistan to save his own country from a possible attack by Saddam Hussein this time, and his country softly threw him out. The House of Saud was already on the damn phone with King Bush the First and his secretaries. Who misses good ol' King George (the Fourth?). And let's not forget the highly motivated warrior, Marge "I'll sink your battleship" Thatcher! If the US had let Saudi Arabia defend itself, 9/11 would have never happened. As history goes, that event was critical in creating future events.

And then we started smashing Iraq all to hell. Like we wouldn't be fuming mad if someone was doing that to our country under the auspices of not liking our leaders. It's pretty damned obvious with a little common sense and logic why people like Osama bin Laden are motivated to attack us. Fortunately for us, the people who would do us harm aren't usually the rich upper class, who had resources and wealth enough to pull off something meaningful.

And 9/11 was a very big deal. Our policy was instrumental in causing it and it's logically unbearable for me to still see the mass-ignorance out there in this late hour of 2014. I condemn the Pakistani government and military for not cooperating with apprehending him or killing him. I condemn anyone in the US government who would give one dirty nickel to Pakistan again until they upright themselves. Subsidizing that excuse for a state is a lesser madness that needs to stop.

I don't want a single US soldier to bleed a drop of blood for Iraq anymore. No more skinned knees and foot blisters. It's time to cut the cord and let people learn how to take care of themselves, even in Iraq. Pottery Barn needs an expiration date, and it's long past stale.

Edited by Yamato

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Earl.Of.Trumps

I don't follow Obama's orders at all... but I make my own hypothesis what should be done. ISIL is a threat for sure, it needs to be dealt with immediately or our citizens will be paying the price big time. It isn't just a threat to America, it is a threat to the whole world because they won't stop at Iraq or Syria, they will spread to all Muslim nations first recruiting and converting before attacking Western nations or the Communist nations next. The world needs to work together against this threat or face divided strength and weaken resolve. It is more likely they will wait to attack America last, it is an stronger opponent compared to all Muslim nations combined, they need to gather strength first before even making an attempt and I am dead serious about that. It would probably be years before they will have the capability, but they can still strike a blow that will damage our moral and freedom in America, just attacking any infrastructure alone makes the government become paranoid and turns it against the citizens.

Stability must first arrive in middle east before any progress of fixing America's broken nation can begin, ISIL is an threat to any nation that is in civil war or revolution and that doesn't exclude America.

I think you are seriously over estimating them. No Caliphate ever grew that big and besides, most Muslim people in the region don't like ISIS and they don't respect them, they only fear them

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Earl.Of.Trumps

There's one sentence I think encapsulates 100% of the reason why we were attacked on 9/11, and that's our military presence in the Middle East, whether directly ourselves or through proxies like Israel or with allies like the UK doesn't matter. It's that we were over there. That Osama bin Laden went home after defeating the USSR in Afghanistan to save his own country from a possible attack by Saddam Hussein this time, and his country softly threw him out. The House of Saud was already on the damn phone with King Bush the First and his secretaries. Who misses good ol' King George (the Fourth?). And let's not forget the highly motivated warrior, Marge "I'll sink your battleship" Thatcher! If the US had let Saudi Arabia defend itself, 9/11 would have never happened. As history goes, that event was critical in creating future events.

And then we started smashing Iraq all to hell. Like we wouldn't be fuming mad if someone was doing that to our country under the auspices of not liking our leaders. It's pretty damned obvious with a little common sense and logic why people like Osama bin Laden are motivated to attack us. Fortunately for us, the people who would do us harm aren't usually the rich upper class, who had resources and wealth enough to pull off something meaningful.

And 9/11 was a very big deal. Our policy was instrumental in causing it and it's logically unbearable for me to still see the mass-ignorance out there in this late hour of 2014. I condemn the Pakistani government and military for not cooperating with apprehending him or killing him. I condemn anyone in the US government who would give one dirty nickel to Pakistan again until they upright themselves. Subsidizing that excuse for a state is a lesser madness that needs to stop.

I don't want a single US soldier to bleed a drop of blood for Iraq anymore. No more skinned knees and foot blisters. It's time to cut the cord and let people learn how to take care of themselves, even in Iraq. Pottery Barn needs an expiration date, and it's long past stale.

Of course that is why, and I'd like to expand on that, but firstly, I just want to say that the wordsmiths and propaganda artists said they did it because they were jealous of our wealth, and 100 million SAP Americans believed this self flattering BS.

If they are jealous of people's wealth, why not attack the rich Saudis, the very wealthy in the Emerates, the super rich Kuwatis, the nation of Lichtenstein, et al. People simply refuse to THINK, they let the media and government officials do it for them and they just parrot.

One other component you did not mention, Yam.

Many countries in the ME whose corrupted leaders are/were under US/UK control, HATE the US for using their country, leaving the citizens with the feeling of loss of autonomy. We have done that to many nations like Egypt, Iran, Qatar, Oman, Libya eventually, and more. All others that are non-conformist get labeled the axis of evil, like Syria, Iraq, and the modern Iran.

See how it goes? A lot of word games.

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meryt-tetisheri

An insightful and sobering read, how ISIS is consolidating its Caliphate while the rest of the world is teetering between numb reactions, inaction, or wishful thinking.

" The frontiers of the new Caliphate declared by Isis on 29 June are expanding by the day and now cover an area larger than Great Britain and inhabited by at least six million people, a population larger than that of Denmark, Finland or Ireland."

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n16/patrick-cockburn/isis-consolidates

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and then

An insightful and sobering read, how ISIS is consolidating its Caliphate while the rest of the world is teetering between numb reactions, inaction, or wishful thinking.

" The frontiers of the new Caliphate declared by Isis on 29 June are expanding by the day and now cover an area larger than Great Britain and inhabited by at least six million people, a population larger than that of Denmark, Finland or Ireland."

http://www.lrb.co.uk...is-consolidates

It's as though the thing is materializing in spite of everyone in the west KNOWING it's dangerous. I began thinking about the emergence of a caliphate months ago but it just seemed like pie in the sky at the time. Now I'm beginning to wonder what happens when the west waits so long that they feel we must "negotiate" with a fait accompli. Baghdadi as a leader of a country? My what a world that would be...

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Earl.Of.Trumps

What the heck do people think this Caliphate is ever going to do, nuke the world??

You have two rather large countries with bonifide militaries that would go in and smoke the Caliphate, should the need arise, China and Russia. Why people in the West think it is our responsibility to baby site their side of the planet amazes me.

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RoofGardener

...See how it goes? A lot of word games.

Word games indeed EoT. I particularly liked your sobriquet "non-conformist" to describe Iran, Iraq and Syria.

How would you have described Stalin and Pol Pot ? "Alternative Lifestyle" ? :P

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meryt-tetisheri

"Like the Shia leaders in Baghdad, the US and its allies have responded to the rise of Isis by descending into fantasy. They pretend they are fostering a ‘third force’ of moderate Syrian rebels to fight both Assad and Isis, though in private Western diplomats admit this group doesn’t really exist outside a few beleaguered pockets.... For America, Britain and the Western powers, the rise of Isis and the Caliphate is the ultimate disaster. Whatever they intended by their invasion of Iraq in 2003 and their efforts to get rid of Assad in Syria since 2011, it was not to see the creation of a jihadi state spanning northern Iraq and Syria run by a movement a hundred times bigger and much better organised than the al-Qaida of Osama bin Laden. The war on terror for which civil liberties have been curtailed and hundreds of billions of dollars spent has failed miserably. The belief that Isis is interested only in ‘Muslim against Muslim’ struggles is another instance of wishful thinking: Isis has shown it will fight anybody who doesn’t adhere to its bigoted, puritanical and violent variant of Islam. Where Isis differs from al-Qaida is that it’s a well-run military organisation that is very careful in choosing its targets and the optimum moment to attack them."

​No one is asking for baby-sitters, but there are those who chose to create, foster, and arm 'resistance groups' in order to force political change in the area; now that the 'half-baked' policies misfired and the 'resistance' mutated out of control they decide that there are others who can clean up after them?! Well, I'm not surprised.

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