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libstaK

Can the West Live with ISIS?

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Yamato

Of course that is why, and I'd like to expand on that, but firstly, I just want to say that the wordsmiths and propaganda artists said they did it because they were jealous of our wealth, and 100 million SAP Americans believed this self flattering BS.

If they are jealous of people's wealth, why not attack the rich Saudis, the very wealthy in the Emerates, the super rich Kuwatis, the nation of Lichtenstein, et al. People simply refuse to THINK, they let the media and government officials do it for them and they just parrot.

One other component you did not mention, Yam.

Many countries in the ME whose corrupted leaders are/were under US/UK control, HATE the US for using their country, leaving the citizens with the feeling of loss of autonomy. We have done that to many nations like Egypt, Iran, Qatar, Oman, Libya eventually, and more. All others that are non-conformist get labeled the axis of evil, like Syria, Iraq, and the modern Iran.

See how it goes? A lot of word games.

That's still the exact same thing. Our presence over there is the entire nutshell. If we were never over there, tripping over Britain's proud legacy of Empire due entirely to newly found oil interests of the late 1940s (cleverly wrapped up in a pile of feelgood Holocaust guilt), 9/11 would have never happened.

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Yamato

And as usual let the record show, #294 is completely ignored by everyone (except EoT). There's a hundred thousand hours of hard work put into 9/11 conspiracy theories on other threads instead. Whatever it takes to ignore the truth, mass bliss and mass ignorance and mass diversion wittingly or unwittingly running cover for the policy. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy of dumbed down masses who still can't figure out what a powder keg is yet, who still can't figure out that the politics are incidental, the religion is incidental, the oil is incidental The same geopolitical constipation we had in 1990 and 2001 is as rich as ever today. People have actually tried to lecture me about such things as women's rights and democracy in the Middle East while ignoring over the policies we deploy towards countries like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, and Israel which are conducive to anything but. They can't have it both ways but don't they feel entitled to anyway. If someone makes the mistake of pointing out how bad women have it in Saudi Arabia and I respond with the unimaginable response of therefore changing our foreign policy, they scurry back into the woodwork and chirp like crickets again every time.

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Sundew

Can an organism live with an aggressive cancer?

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Yamato

Can an organism live with an aggressive cancer?

If you keep responding to it with aggressive poison and radiation and surgery? No, eventually you cut off and poison and pollute so much, you write the person's death sentence and kill them even faster than the cancer would have alone. Can't question the status quo there either though; good analogy.

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and then

Can an organism live with an aggressive cancer?

Not for long. Especially if one is in denial that they're sick.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Word games indeed EoT. I particularly liked your sobriquet "non-conformist" to describe Iran, Iraq and Syria.

How would you have described Stalin and Pol Pot ? "Alternative Lifestyle" ? :P

Oh, please, mister dramatist!

They say Hitler, Stalin, and Mao killed 100 million, and as tiny as Cambodia was/is, Pol Pot still took out 1/3 of the entire population.

Please, do tell, what genocides have the Syrians, Iranians and Iraqis performed??

I understand Assad's old man killed 50,000 at one time, but that is pure puppy doo doo in comparison

Do you really think that the Iraqis were as bad as Egypt? They had a dictator in Egypt but he was considered an American ally.

Let me translate that for you, American ally in the ME = Israel tolerant nation.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

​No one is asking for baby-sitters, but there are those who chose to create, foster, and arm 'resistance groups' in order to force political change in the area; now that the 'half-baked' policies misfired and the 'resistance' mutated out of control they decide that there are others who can clean up after them?! Well, I'm not surprised.

Meryt, are you seriously suggestion that America be trusted to go back in and do it the *right* way??

Please! "half-baked ideas" is correct! and don't ever expect to change the stripes of a tiger.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

And as usual let the record show, #294 is completely ignored by everyone (except EoT). There's a hundred thousand hours of hard work put into 9/11 conspiracy theories on other threads instead. Whatever it takes to ignore the truth, mass bliss and mass ignorance and mass diversion wittingly or unwittingly running cover for the policy. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy of dumbed down masses who still can't figure out what a powder keg is yet, who still can't figure out that the politics are incidental, the religion is incidental, the oil is incidental The same geopolitical constipation we had in 1990 and 2001 is as rich as ever today. People have actually tried to lecture me about such things as women's rights and democracy in the Middle East while ignoring over the policies we deploy towards countries like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, and Israel which are conducive to anything but. They can't have it both ways but don't they feel entitled to anyway. If someone makes the mistake of pointing out how bad women have it in Saudi Arabia and I respond with the unimaginable response of therefore changing our foreign policy, they scurry back into the woodwork and chirp like crickets again every time.

If a woman ever asked me what I think of how bad women in Saudi have it, I would simply shoot back - do you think a Palestinian woman, trapped in a refugee camp in Syria would want to trade places with the burka-clad woman in Saudi Arabia?

People's sense of "humanitarian crisis" is sometimes overwhelmed with *what* person is having the crisis.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Can an organism live with an aggressive cancer?

Surely not.

that is precisely why most every country in the ME wants to rid the region of the land grabbing,ethnic cleansing cancer known as Israel

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RoofGardener

Re. #294.

1) It was a Cruiser, not a battleship.

2) NOBODY called her 'Marge'... ever... anywhere.

Apart from that, Yamato, your appeal towards American isolationism was not entirely without merit.

But... out of curiosity.. would you have argued the same in 1938 ?

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libstaK

A chief Advisor to Syria's Assad warns that ISIS is a danger to humanity.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/08/18/wrn-isis-syria-bouthaina-shaaban-intv.cnn.html

She also states that Syria has been warning the west for the last 2-3 years about the threat of ISIS and that a united effort is required to destroy them "by all the countries of the world". Interesting that they would be conducive to international action on their soil when they have every reason to the distrust Western Powers which have thus far supported fringe rebel groups fighting the Syrian Government itself. Syria seems pretty clear about what the most important issue is and that is ISIS.

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President-Elect Acidhead

Non-intervention is what Yam is referring to RG. The isolationists ARE the interventionists. Big difference.

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libstaK

I am watching Breaking News that ISIS has now captured and beheaded an American Journalist James Foley and released footage on the internet.

:cry:

This will add a new dynamic to U.S. response to the threat the existence of ISIS poses.

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TSS

I am watching Breaking News that ISIS has now captured and beheaded an American Journalist James Foley and released footage on the internet.

:cry:

This will add a new dynamic to U.S. response to the threat the existence of ISIS poses.

They need to separate public opinion from action - turn the cameras off (metaphorically speaking), forget the approval ratings...and wipe this scum of the map permanently.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

A chief Advisor to Syria's Assad warns that ISIS is a danger to humanity.

http://edition.cnn.c...n-intv.cnn.html

She also states that Syria has been warning the west for the last 2-3 years about the threat of ISIS and that a united effort is required to destroy them "by all the countries of the world". Interesting that they would be conducive to international action on their soil when they have every reason to the distrust Western Powers which have thus far supported fringe rebel groups fighting the Syrian Government itself. Syria seems pretty clear about what the most important issue is and that is ISIS.

Sure looks like Syria is worried about.... Syria! And I can't blame Assad, however, let him tell China and Russia first.

And if those two cannot handle the menace known as IS, then the west can chime in.

Until then, *my* people should stay home

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Earl.Of.Trumps

They need to separate public opinion from action - turn the cameras off (metaphorically speaking), forget the approval ratings...and wipe this scum of the map permanently.

Every time *somebody* dismantles a ME terror group, a new one pops up that is even more volatile than the last. It's been going on since the PLO in 1967 and it won't stop in the near future, IMO

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Yamato

If a woman ever asked me what I think of how bad women in Saudi have it, I would simply shoot back - do you think a Palestinian woman, trapped in a refugee camp in Syria would want to trade places with the burka-clad woman in Saudi Arabia?

People's sense of "humanitarian crisis" is sometimes overwhelmed with *what* person is having the crisis.

That's exactly right, and I think the honest positions are to either to care about both, or care about neither, but instead it's a PC cafeteria where they tolerate it in Saudi Arabia and condemn it somewhere else instead. The politics makes it okay. Because the policy can't be questioned. I have to believe that at least some people are starting to come around as to how badly they've been misled their whole lives.

Re. #294.

1) It was a Cruiser, not a battleship.

2) NOBODY called her 'Marge'... ever... anywhere.

Apart from that, Yamato, your appeal towards American isolationism was not entirely without merit.

But... out of curiosity.. would you have argued the same in 1938 ?

Well I called her Marge, ever. And I never said a word about isolationism. As acidhead noted, you're failing to understand there's a great big world of people out there doing what they're doing regardless of government and in many instances n spite of it. I know that government must always been seen to make the world go round, and we have to revisit periods of world history like 1938 where the tables were set for world war once again, and imply a perpetual readiness to deal with that situ when it comes around again. But no, I don't spout from the spigot of nutnyahoo when he was coming over here six and seven years ago fear mongering about 1938 and Ahmadinejad trying to get the US military into another adventure with Iran. You read from the same holy text that he does, and so of course these are the pretenses of your thought process. Starting the thinking process when the tables are set and war is inevitable is convenient to sell one's favorite government and violence.

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meryt-tetisheri

Meryt, are you seriously suggestion that America be trusted to go back in and do it the *right* way??

Please! "half-baked ideas" is correct! and don't ever expect to change the stripes of a tiger.

Lol...no, I said I'm not surprised. However, it gets a tad irritating to listen to all the "non-interventionist" arguments which come conveniently after the act, only when the monster that was nurtured starts running embarrassingly amok: some pundits dream up a 'creative' strategy for the ME, inexperienced politicians - having the dream of a legacy in mind- buy & execute it; & it eventually fails (no surprise there). However trying to wash ones hands of any direct or indirect responsibility, while pointing to others as an over-demanding people, a nuisance, incapable of cleaning up the mess, only adds insult to injury. I admit there was a time when I expected USA to do the right thing, but its policies towards my country of birth, & its insistence on pushing the MB on Egypt, cured me of any such illusions.

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Yamato

The first step in cleaning up a mess is no longer making it.

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and then

Lol...no, I said I'm not surprised. However, it gets a tad irritating to listen to all the "non-interventionist" arguments which come conveniently after the act, only when the monster that was nurtured starts running embarrassingly amok: some pundits dream up a 'creative' strategy for the ME, inexperienced politicians - having the dream of a legacy in mind- buy & execute it; & it eventually fails (no surprise there). However trying to wash ones hands of any direct or indirect responsibility, while pointing to others as an over-demanding people, a nuisance, incapable of cleaning up the mess, only adds insult to injury. I admit there was a time when I expected USA to do the right thing, but its policies towards my country of birth, & its insistence on pushing the MB on Egypt, cured me of any such illusions.

I think it goes beyond just cleaning up in this particular case. A better analogy is that we started a fire and can't let it continue in the direction the wind seems to be pressing it or it's going to burn down our own homes. It's easy enough to look away and say it's someone else's problem, that the threat isn't so great (yet) but the reality is that small, insignificant organizations CAN and DO beat the odds all the time. They catch a wave, so to speak, and grow far beyond what anyone expects. IS is stronger, better led and FAR better funded that AQ ever was prior to 9-11. I think the time has come for America to destroy their infrastructure of weapons and as much of their soldiery as possible while they are relatively massed in one region. If they capture the imagination of the ummah and truly become a powerhouse the opportunity will have slipped away. Ignoring a fire rarely ends well.
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meryt-tetisheri

I think it goes beyond just cleaning up in this particular case. A better analogy is that we started a fire and can't let it continue in the direction the wind seems to be pressing it or it's going to burn down our own homes. It's easy enough to look away and say it's someone else's problem, that the threat isn't so great (yet) but the reality is that small, insignificant organizations CAN and DO beat the odds all the time. They catch a wave, so to speak, and grow far beyond what anyone expects. IS is stronger, better led and FAR better funded that AQ ever was prior to 9-11. I think the time has come for America to destroy their infrastructure of weapons and as much of their soldiery as possible while they are relatively massed in one region. If they capture the imagination of the ummah and truly become a powerhouse the opportunity will have slipped away. Ignoring a fire rarely ends well.

I agree with you, but it's unclear whether the objective of any intervention will be to destroy IS infrastructure or simply warn them to stay away from certain boundaries. I don't know why, but Neville Chamberlain keeps coming in mind :)

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Lol...no, I said I'm not surprised. However, it gets a tad irritating to listen to all the "non-interventionist" arguments which come conveniently after the act, only when the monster that was nurtured starts running embarrassingly amok: some pundits dream up a 'creative' strategy for the ME, inexperienced politicians - having the dream of a legacy in mind- buy & execute it; & it eventually fails (no surprise there). However trying to wash ones hands of any direct or indirect responsibility, while pointing to others as an over-demanding people, a nuisance, incapable of cleaning up the mess, only adds insult to injury. I admit there was a time when I expected USA to do the right thing, but its policies towards my country of birth, & its insistence on pushing the MB on Egypt, cured me of any such illusions.

I watched my nation go into Afghanistan to find OBL, the bad bad man that did 911. We kept fighting *in* Afghanistan, despite the government fully acknowledging that OBL was in Pakistan, and I began to do a hard turn that only got harder when - against the US allies' advice, the US went into Iraq to get that bad bad man, Saddam Hussein and his WoMD, that did not exist.

That was IT - for me. I gave up. I conceited that the pigs in Washington were under the control of a very powerful lobby group of some kind. Insidious. That's when I went "full tilt" isolationism. The people in Washington cannot be trusted to use the military for some kind of "good".

See what has happened to the Iraqi people? At this point the vast majority of people think that leaving Hussein in power was a much better option than what the Iraq people have now. So you think the people in control in Washington give a damn...? they don't. All they know is "mission accomplished, another potential Israeli destroyer taken off line".

I am no "johnnie-come-lately", I have wanted isolationism in my country for a long while. I would not trust those pigs in Washington as far as I could *throw* those pigs in Washington.

peace be with you

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Earl.Of.Trumps

I think it goes beyond just cleaning up in this particular case. A better analogy is that we started a fire and can't let it continue in the direction the wind seems to be pressing it or it's going to burn down our own homes. It's easy enough to look away and say it's someone else's problem, that the threat isn't so great (yet) but the reality is that small, insignificant organizations CAN and DO beat the odds all the time. They catch a wave, so to speak, and grow far beyond what anyone expects. IS is stronger, better led and FAR better funded that AQ ever was prior to 9-11. I think the time has come for America to destroy their infrastructure of weapons and as much of their soldiery as possible while they are relatively massed in one region. If they capture the imagination of the ummah and truly become a powerhouse the opportunity will have slipped away. Ignoring a fire rarely ends well.

uhh, *what* weapons cache would that be, the Apache helo that they "captured"...? the stingers they grabbed?

And I ask why, does anyone in IS even know how to use them?

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Earl.Of.Trumps

I agree with you, but it's unclear whether the objective of any intervention will be to destroy IS infrastructure or simply warn them to stay away from certain boundaries. I don't know why, but Neville Chamberlain keeps coming in mind :)

LoL! uhh, Meryt... If the "Hitler youth" went up against ISIS, I'd be betting on the Hitler youth

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Yamato

I know "why", because it's the way Bibi would have people think.

This "1938" mythology is straight from the horse's mouth:

Unfortunately this was posted Jan 1, 2009. Which means it's at least 1945 by now, and Ahmadinejad gracefully stepped down from power in Iran, and gosh darnit, Netanyahu couldn't get the US stuck in another senseless war in Iran, oh well.

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