Skeptic Brian Dunning Sentenced

[AbyssWalker]

If a psychic is caught and proven guilty of fraud, would you still try to separate his crimes, from his accomplishment? Chances are you will no longer take him as a credible source. You would probably be right because this particular psychic went against what he claimed to stood for, what he was advocating for.

A psychic's entire career will be in jeapordy because he could be emotionally and financially hurting people and taking advantage of people who're looking for closure or comfort. It depends on the nature of his crime.... again.... was he caught doing something fraudulent related to his psychic abilities ? Did he rob an ATM somewhere ? Can't the greed for money, lust make people do things like that?

As for a UFOlogist or a proponent of ETH? Was he caught forging evidence of ET visitation ? or was it something else?

I'm not saying I would be able to separate crimes from accomplishments, but it is what you have do to judge things separately, without getting your emotions involved?

I was aware of his podcat but never was a fan of it to be honest.

I see.

[Sweetpumper]

If this was in response to my post

It wasn't.

[AbyssWalker]

It wasn't.

No worries

[Occult1]

I'm not saying I would be able to separate crimes from accomplishments, but it is what you have do to judge things separately, without getting your emotions involved

As pointed out by Rebecca Watson of the skepchick blog:

''The very same skeptics who happily point out to Mormons that they idolize a fraud in Joseph Smith, and who tell believers of Sylvia Browne that she was convicted of fraud, are giving their money to a convicted fraud who actually used them in his criminal acts''

Source: http://skepchick.org...for-skepticism/

He did hosted a succesful podcast, that's true. The man may be right or wrong in his views of certain controversial topics such as UFOs, Ghosts, Cryptozoloogy, Psychics ect, it's a matter of opinion and irrelevant to the point. The thing is, he ended up doing just what he accused others to do and to be in the paranormal world. That's pretty ironic to me, and very likely it's an embarassement to some promoting the skeptic movement.

Edited August 11, 2014 by sam_comm

[Sweetpumper]

I just saw that he's written five books. Did he charge money for them?

[Quaentum]

Normally just the realm of UFOlogists we know, this guy ran a scam, got caught.

Shame they could not find any flaws in his skeptical arguments. Yes, scumbags exist on both sides of the fence, this is a shock to some people???? Never heard the phrase "There is one in every crowd"?

Good God, hundreds of UFOlogists outright make crap up and lie to people's faces to rip them off, and even in some cases kill them. One skeptic gets caught scamming a HUGE organisation, and you think this means UFO's are now all alien spaceships????? Like you never pinched something from KMart when you were a kid and told yourself "It's alright, they are a HUGE company and won't miss this tiny little thing - but they DID".

Thing is, this man has been caught, and is being punished. Imagine if every UFOlogists that lied, ripped people off and even killed others had to face the music? There would not be enough prisons. Just the AA Vandals alone would fill them up.

Yeah, he is a charlatan and a liar, don't trust ANYTHING he has to say about EBay. We all warm and fuzzy now?

If lying about UFO's was a crime everyone who has put a fake UFO video on you tube would be in jail.

[Occult1]

I just saw that he's written five books. Did he charge money for them?

They can be found on Amazon. Here's a paperback of one of them for about 20$: http://www.amazon.co...1600480-1929610

If lying about UFO's was a crime everyone who has put a fake UFO video on you tube would be in jail.

That would be make quite a few people indeed..

Edited August 11, 2014 by sam_comm

[Merc14]

This type of fraud doesn't effect the skeptic field as much as it would the Ufology field because the skeptic isn't asking you to believe in something magical or fantastical like the ufologist is. In many cases, such as the child molestor referenced in the other thread, the only "proof" you have is the ufologiist's word/photo whereas a skeptic should be basing his assertion on known, provable facts that don't require you to trust him or her, just the facts or info presented, all of which should be easily verified. A ufologist presenting a photo he took of an ET ship is asking you to trust him or her enough to believe the unbelivable and if they are a proven fraud it spoils their evidence, especially when so many have presented fake photos in the past.

Dunning's evidence wasn't spoiled by his fraud, all those books and newspapers referenced in his debunkings don't change but Stan Romaneck's evidence is spoiled after his fraud intrerview and the child porn accusations. A known liar and worse is asking you to believe a video he took of an alien peeking in the window is real. Seriously?

Edited August 11, 2014 by Merc14

[psyche101]

This thread could have been posted in pretty much any paranormal section of the forum. The guy touched various subjects in his podcast: UFO, Bigfoot, Ghosts, Psychics ect. It might have been best suited in Features News & Articles though.

Yes, agreed, in that section it would have appeared neutral, the OP's presentation, comments, and repeated pictures which are not funny after the tenth post has a noticeable agenda against critical thinking though. I suspect he is after the "Zoser" award or some such stupid goal.

He got caught for planting cookies on unsuspecting people's computers too, visitors of various blogs, perhaps even his own. Thus stealing a small 5 Million dollars. (court document: http://www.benedelma...aint.pdf#page=8) The man is a millionair yet he asked for donation to fund a book about his podcast. (https://www.kickstar...racles?ref=live) That's questionable to say the least..

Agreed, and it is good to see he got caught despite his attempts to weasel out, he did the wrong thing and deserves to be punished for it - no two ways about it. You don't just accidentally collect 5 million dollars and go - oops!! Didn't mean it!!

I am not sure how he can still be considered 'credible' when accusing of frauds and fakery in the paranormal world which he did on his podcasts.

It should not be "the man" who holds credibility but his work. If any of his skeptical evaluations had ever been flawed, this proves he would be ousted like any common liar. If the best his entire skeptical career can muster is that he defrauded EBay, it says nothing about the evaluations put forth on paranormal phenomena, if anything it fortifies them as this would be the perfect opportunity for all those who lost debates in the paranormal to oust any erroneous situation, yet not a single case can be shown to be so. Because no flaws exist in other evaluations, he shows up on sites like this in an attempt to dent credibility on those subjects without actually ever broaching them. An appeal to authority based on human error, not any specific evidence or instance. His character has been dented - no two ways about it. That may affect his standing in future endeavours by way of preconception, but it still has no bearing on his work to date.

[psyche101]

If lying about UFO's was a crime everyone who has put a fake UFO video on you tube would be in jail.

Some aspects of UFOlogy are more damaging than others, and I do believe some aspects really should be considered a crime. Ancient Alien crapology ought to be considered historical vandalism and a crime as well.

[psyche101]

Not sure I'd consider them ufologists, more like UFO fanatics or E.T. Nuts.

Heaven's Gate was run by one man. Scientology has many UFO representatives like that halfwit Cruise who lie to your face about the Xenu story as if you are some brain dead retard that will believe anything, Order of the Solar Temple was the work on one man, and Simon Kadwill from Servers of the Divine Plan was one man who is responsible for the deaths of an entire family.

All directly UFO related, and all of them start with the thoughts of one man - even Scientology, Hubbard's greatest ever fiction.

Cults like Raelism are more what you are speaking about, and even worse again. The Raelians themselves are funded by a prostitution ring, and have been banned from several countries due to their liberal views on underage sexual practises within the church.

Because a few more famous scumbags like Friedman and Lazar have made individual impacts does not shadow the work of these men who created far more devastation than just lying to the world about made up aliens. People like Friedman and Lazar are just petty liars, but true maniacs like Marshall Applewhite are still selling the same story.

UFOlogy itself is pretty scummy, the notable astrobiologists and physicists who provide all the credibility this field has are the silent achievers.

[psyche101]

Oh, golly. Yes, he's a fraudster on everything except on what I agree with him on!

That's how that works, right?

You mean, you cannot dent a single argument, and now that your appeal to authority has failed, you're trying to find another angle to work it?

[qxcontinuum]

Selling a controversial service is not neceserily illegal. If people go willingly to consult a self-proclaimed psychic (and there are many who do so, even very educated people) that's entirely up to them. Wether or not the psychic has any kind of real supernatural ability is, without proof, a matter of personal belief. That's where the ethical debate takes place. But what's illegal is exploitation and extortion of money. So called ''psychics'' are arrested and charged on a regular basis for preying on vulnerable people. They've stolen the money, through means of manipulation or coercion.

See for exemple:

http://www.lasvegass...d-fraud-charge/

http://www.ktvz.com/...y-feds/26597658

http://doubtfulnews....0k-from-victim/

http://freethoughtbl...iminal-charges/

I bet if they were real psychics they knew ahead of time they will be caught and therefore not becoming psychics in first place

[psyche101]

were they ufologists, though? Meaning researchers and the like? They were just, well, probably not even real believers, people who used UFOs in one way or another to con people into following them. By ufologists we're talking about the people who make a career out of researching them, and/or promoting their own theories. You may consider them frauds and Charalants, but it's a bit of a leap from that to suggesting that they may have actually killed people.

What is the difference? These people stated that they had inside information from aliens, just like Crazy Paul Hellyer, they claimed they had made contact, like Clifford Stone, and what is the difference between one of these cults and say David Ickes insane band of followers, or the hoards that follow Stanton Friedman and David Icke to UFO Conferences paying big dollars to listen to them speak crap for a few hours? How are their false claims any different from those made by Bob Lazar? The one difference so far is that at the end of the conference, you drink poisoned orange juice.

Sounds like the same people to me.

I just saw that he's written five books. Did he charge money for them?

He defrauded EBay of 5 million - what do you think?

[markprice]

Some aspects of UFOlogy are more damaging than others, and I do believe some aspects really should be considered a crime. Ancient Alien crapology ought to be considered historical vandalism and a crime as well.

Compared to the crap they teach in school...

[psyche101]

Compared to the crap they teach in school...

Good thing we gots you around fer sem proper scoolin huh!!

WOW, stupidest statement made at UM ever?

Just may be!!

You must have been one lazy SOB at school to fail like you do today.

Be embarrassed about yourself Mark, it's the best thing you could do for yourself.

As for your clip - did you know Dave Gilmour's father was a senior lecturer in zoology at the University of Cambridge, and his mother, Sylvia (née Wilson), was a teacher and film editor who later worked for the BBC? Dave himself studied A-Level modern languages at Cambridge Technical College. You have not the slightest clue about that which you speak of.

Edited August 12, 2014 by psyche101

[little_dreamer]

I did not know about Brian's arrest until I read this topic. I had visited his skeptic website last year before his troubles, but I have never used eBay. Hope my computer is OK.

I think even back then he was soliciting donations, but that's not unusual for a blogger.

[markprice]

Good thing we gots you around fer sem proper scoolin huh!!

WOW, stupidest statement made at UM ever?

Just may be!!

You must have been one lazy SOB at school to fail like you do today.

Be embarrassed about yourself Mark, it's the best thing you could do for yourself.

As for your clip - did you know Dave Gilmour's father was a senior lecturer in zoology at the University of Cambridge, and his mother, Sylvia (née Wilson), was a teacher and film editor who later worked for the BBC? Dave himself studied A-Level modern languages at Cambridge Technical College. You have not the slightest clue about that which you speak of.

You really don't get it, and never will. Ever encounter american history in australia? Pro-tip: it's crap. BTW I had a college scholarship and Dave's dad did not write that song, but that does illustrate yet again typical tangents you stoop for personal attacks you know nothing about. [edit: you're not worth it.]

I'll add this though: essentially what you are insidiously saying is those not indoctrinated exactly like you should be fined. Good luck with that.

Edited August 12, 2014 by markprice

[psyche101]

You really don't get it, and never will. Ever encounter american history in australia?

I get it more than you are ever going to understand. Deriding education is the work of a fool. What the hell has American History got to do with Brian Dunning?

Pro-tip: it's crap. BTW I had a college scholarship and Dave's dad did not write that song, but that does illustrate yet again typical tangents you stoop for personal attacks you know nothing about. [edit: you're not worth it.]

LOL, Scholarship in what exactly!! Nothing academic it would seem!! Dave's Dad didn't write any song, Dave didn't write it either, Dave Gilmour OWNS the rights to Pink Floyd and that song, and he comes from a highly educated background.

YOU Made the personal attack on education, if you want to say something stupid, be prepared to be called out on it.

I'll add this though: essentially what you are insidiously saying is those not indoctrinated exactly like you should be fined. Good luck with that.

I have made an appeal to the Indigenous Authority of Australia for exactly this, and while these wheels take a while to turn, I hope eventually I will be successful, and people like Giorgio will have to qualify his nonsense, or go to jail for vandalising Indigenous Culture.

Thanks for the goodwill, I do hope I am successful. It is a crime to steal Indigenous Tradition and re-write it for a quick buck, and anyone who promotes or advocates such nonsense ought to be ashamed of themselves.

LOL - You do not get Indoctrinated to Indigenous traditions Mark, Good God man, maybe you should just say nothing at all? You would look more intelligent.

[Space Commander Travis]

What is the difference? These people stated that they had inside information from aliens, just like Crazy Paul Hellyer, they claimed they had made contact, like Clifford Stone, and what is the difference between one of these cults and say David Ickes insane band of followers, or the hoards that follow Stanton Friedman and David Icke to UFO Conferences paying big dollars to listen to them speak crap for a few hours? How are their false claims any different from those made by Bob Lazar? The one difference so far is that at the end of the conference, you drink poisoned orange juice.

Sounds like the same people to me.

The usual tactics there i see; lump everyone in together with the biggest loonies or most evil people you can think of. Well done, glad to see you're as discriminating as always.

[Space Commander Travis]

Ah, I was going to say you'd forgotten to mention that crowd you always go on about, but I couldn't remember what they were called. That was it, the Realians.

[psyche101]

The usual tactics there i see; lump everyone in together with the biggest loonies or most evil people you can think of. Well done, glad to see you're as discriminating as always.

No, I gave specific names to support my argument, I see your post seems to lack names, details, or anything other than a broad brush?

So you can confirm they are speaking about two different things?

Sounds more like "Your" usual tactics to me?

[psyche101]

Ah, I was going to say you'd forgotten to mention that crowd you always go on about, but I couldn't remember what they were called. That was it, the Realians.

The ones with the prostitution ring to fund the cult and those who advocate underage sex, which has seen their leader Claude Horhillion banned from several countries, yes what of them?

I think child molesters deserve death row myself.

[MrBene]

Well, from my point of view I believe most of us have two sides, one side that claims for improvement and we do things to improve as human beings and a darker very rotten side and before everybody start claiming "hey I'm a saint" think about it. The man comitted fraud, to a company, for money. In this fraud many people got involved and many people got ripped off from their honest earnings (as I understand the logic behind this brilliant, yes brilliant, scam) but at the same time this guy was somehow contributting against massive ignorance, he was doing his part, I believe, with conviction and hard work.

Should his work against ignorance be now presented as "fraud" or "dishonest"? I don't think so. The man himself, trapped, admitted he was guilty and he's going to face his fate but despite of that fact, he wants to keep fighting ignorance. I don't see anything wrong with it. If you believe otherwise, well, that's okay. I assume his credibility, after being part of a huge scam, could be affected but I don't think that something involving truth and science can be dismissed just because the messenger is a little bit rotten.

Who's not a little bit rotten anyway? If we dig enough I guess even the well known saints have a few stains. If ufo-enthusiasts see this as a "victory" for their movement, well that's sad, go back to youtube to watch CGI videos. That's more worth of your time.

[Space Commander Travis]

No, I gave specific names to support my argument, I see your post seems to lack names, details, or anything other than a broad brush?

So you can confirm they are speaking about two different things?

Sounds more like "Your" usual tactics to me?

I think the difference is, i don't get as angry about it as you do, and so I don't feel the need to drag everyone associated with the subject down to the level of association with the most unpleasant criminals.