Germany Severing Profitable Ties to Russia

[Helen of Annoy]

i know you also have your own little problems with the far right, but I am sure you would deny that also.

Anythings better than Russia hey !

Br Cornelius

Anything is better than Russia, see history and stop being so amazed with that simple fact of European life.

The more you shill, the more we remember why you are the worst option in history of mankind.

Proletariat of the world, unite... in mass graves, apparently.

So before you open your mouth with intention to comment on my far or near right or left, you have to explain our mass graves, filled with Croats, murdered by Serbian fascists hidden behind Communist party.

You, comrade, are taking too much liberty lately.

[Guest]

Show me whenever in the history of Political Science did a nation voting 98.84% AGAINST a perceived Right Wing Party then result in an entire Sovereign Nation then "Lurching to the Extreme Right"? It is nonsense, it is not internally self - consistent with your argument, in fact it flies in the face of your biased pre-conceptions.

You have still not corrected your earlier, completely erroneous claim that Svoboda was in control of 5 Ministries in Ukraine - you simply looked at the word "Minister" and assumed that each name meant that they were in charge of Ministries - without external governance.

Every single one of your arguments is a "Straw Man" based on the use of Godwinism to support, unsupportable statements and arguments.

If you rely exclusively on using the terms "Fascist", "Nazi" and "Far Right" to characterise a Sovereign nation that has demonstrably voted against the implications of being governed by such people then you have nothing else to add to this thread. You views are certainly not worth my time arguing against because you are completely "closed off" from reasoned debate.

So Ministers are not in charge in ministeries. Your messing with definitions here Keith.

Br Cornelius

[Guest]

Anything is better than Russia, see history and stop being so amazed with that simple fact of European life.

The more you shill, the more we remember why you are the worst option in history of mankind.

Proletariat of the world, unite... in mass graves, apparently.

So before you open your mouth with intention to comment on my far or near right or left, you have to explain our mass graves, filled with Croats, murdered by Serbian fascists hidden behind Communist party.

You, comrade, are taking too much liberty lately.

Fascists and Communists killed lots of people, now there's a fact I never new

Br Cornelius

[TSS]

Fascists and Communists killed lots of people, now there's a fact I never new

Br Cornelius

So why constantly criticise one whilst barely mentioning the other? If those are the only two options on the table (which isn't accurate anyway), then who the hell are you to tell people in that region they should be favouring one option over another?

Edited August 15, 2014 by The Sky Scanner

[keithisco]

i know you also have your own little problems with the far right, but I am sure you would deny that also.

Anythings better than Russia hey !

Br Cornelius

as does Ireland... hey!

[keithisco]

So Ministers are not in charge in ministeries. Your messing with definitions here Keith.

Br Cornelius

NO THEY ARE NOT! Apologies for the capital letters but you are just not looking at the reality - neither are you correctly stating the number of Ministers.

You simply do not understand the term Minister, in Ukrainian politics, or UK Politics. Let me give you a clue - Nick Clegg is Deputy Prime Minister of the UK, he does not head a Ministry...

NOW, prove me wrong!!!

Edited August 15, 2014 by keithisco

[Guest]

as does Ireland... hey!

Not really Keith, Ireland has no ultra-right wing parties - unless you call the DUP ultra-rightwing.

If you mean to suggest SF, then again you would be wrong since they are the most socialist party on the Island.

Who do you mean ?

Br Cornelius

[Guest]

NO THEY ARE NOT! Apologies for the capital letters but you are just not looking at the reality - neither are you correctly stating the number of Ministers.

You simply do not understand the term Minister, in Ukrainian politics, or UK Politics. Let me give you a clue - Nick Clegg is Deputy Prime Minister of the UK, he does not head a Ministry...

you still haven't addressed the issue of why so many when they only represent 1.16% of the electorate. Care to speculate ? In any reasonable democracy they wouldn't get a look in.

Rewards for good deeds maybe ?

Br Cornelius

Edited August 15, 2014 by Guest

[keithisco]

Not really Keith, Ireland has no ultra-right wing parties - unless you call the DUP ultra-rightwing.

If you mean to suggest SF, then again you would be wrong since they are the most socialist party on the Island.

Who do you mean ?

Br Cornelius

From your own post #49

i know you also have your own little problems with the far right

Did you mention Political Parties? NO, but now you have been found out as proposing nonsensical statements do you wish to restate your post#49??

[Guest]

So why constantly criticise one whilst barely mentioning the other? If those are the only two options on the table (which isn't accurate anyway), then who the hell are you to tell people in that region they should be favouring one option over another?

Do you remember how the National Socialists eventually came to dominate German politics and the consequences of that. False flags(remember the burning of the Rheichstag), private armies, intimidation.

I see parallels - you may not. My point again is why are the EU and US backing these people ? expediency ?

[keithisco]

you still haven't addressed the issue of why so many when they only represent 1.16% of the electorate. Care to speculate ? In any reasonable democracy they wouldn't get a look in.

Rewards for good deeds maybe ?

Br Cornelius

Answer my questions to you first - you know that you made a false statement so now is your opportunity to correct it, you might as well also address the issue of which election you are referring to because that also seems to have slipped your memory.

[Guest]

Answer my questions to you first - you know that you made a false statement so now is your opportunity to correct it, you might as well also address the issue of which election you are referring to because that also seems to have slipped your memory.

The deputy prime minister is in charge of the government - hardly a slight fact keith, somewaht more than just a Ministry don't you think.

How did they get so many with just over 1% of the vote ?

Br Cornelius

[keithisco]

Do you remember how the National Socialists eventually came to dominate German politics and the consequences of that. False flags(remember the burning of the Rheichstag), private armies, intimidation.

I see parallels - you may not. My point again is why are the EU and US backing these people ? expediency ?

You really are clutching at straws now.... show me these "parallels", show me the analogs of burning the Reichstag, private armies (unless run by Russian Sympathisers of course), show me the intimidation.. go on, give it a try whilst attempting to extricate your other ridiculous arguments from the mire of "Confirmation Bias".

[keithisco]

The deputy prime minister is in charge of the government - hardly a slight fact keith, somewaht more than just a Ministry don't you think.

How did they get so many with just over 1% of the vote ?

Br Cornelius

You see what I mean... the Deputy Prime Minister has no Ministry - he does not control hundreds or thousands of civil servants, he makes NO decision relating to any Ministry whatsoever. He has no oversight of Governance responsibility at all.

You really need to tell me now - how many Ministers does Svoboda have today.... it really isn't rocket science, and it is better to be honest rather than to perpetuate an unsustainable position in a debate.

Whilst we are at this point - also please tell me what oversight is in place for any decisions made by any Minister within the Ukraine Govt. Are they all completely free to apply their own policy, or are they restricted by Committee???

Edited August 15, 2014 by keithisco

[TSS]

Do you remember how the National Socialists eventually came to dominate German politics and the consequences of that. False flags(remember the burning of the Rheichstag), private armies, intimidation.

I see parallels - you may not. My point again is why are the EU and US backing these people ? expediency ?

Let me get this straight - because the EU and US don't seem to share the same paranoia as you (your parallels don't exist btw, not even tenuously, but anyway....) then that makes you suspicious of their involvement, so much so your criticism of Russia's expansion plans are non-existent?

[Guest]

Let me get this straight - because the EU and US don't seem to share the same paranoia as you (your parallels don't exist btw, not even tenuously, but anyway....) then that makes you suspicious of their involvement, so much so your criticism of Russia's expansion plans are non-existent?

The USA has been pushing against the countries neighbouring Russia since the wall came down - breaking treaties signed in the process. If Russia suddenly started financing a coup in both Canada and Mexico - do you imagine for one second that America would simply sit back and accept it.

Br Cornelius

[keithisco]

The USA has been pushing against the countries neighbouring Russia since the wall came down - breaking treaties signed in the process. If Russia suddenly started financing a coup in both Canada and Mexico - do you imagine for one second that America would simply sit back and accept it.

Br Cornelius

All rhetoric - no facts. And you still refuse to answer my questions of you....

[Guest]

All rhetoric - no facts. And you still refuse to answer my questions of you....

At this stage your intransigence on accepting some basic facts indicates your not really in this for information.

Br Cornelius

[keithisco]

At this stage your intransigence on accepting some basic facts indicates your not really in this for information.

Br Cornelius

I refer you to post#67

[TSS]

The USA has been pushing against the countries neighbouring Russia since the wall came down - breaking treaties signed in the process. If Russia suddenly started financing a coup in both Canada and Mexico - do you imagine for one second that America would simply sit back and accept it.

Br Cornelius

You didn't answer the question - your reason has changed within two answer, now it appears to boil down to "they started it first". In summary then - you don't believe these countries should be able to decide for themselves which direction or influence they take, the decision should be made for them by Russia, and the reasons you give for that amount to either they remind you of 1930's Germany (still the most bizarre comparison i've heard to date), or the US/EU promised to never give them options. No chance of you ever being accused of being a progressive forward-thinker is there Br!

[Guest]

You didn't answer the question - your reason has changed within two answer, now it appears to boil down to "they started it first". In summary then - you don't believe these countries should be able to decide for themselves which direction or influence they take, the decision should be made for them by Russia, and the reasons you give for that amount to either they remind you of 1930's Germany (still the most bizarre comparison i've heard to date), or the US/EU promised to never give them options. No chance of you ever being accused of being a progressive forward-thinker is there Br!

I said quite plainly that the situation was influenced by foreign intervention from the EU and USA. that seems fine for you but not for me. That is the ultimate issue here - does the west have the right to inflict espionage onto sovereign countries because you believe that thewy are working for some ultimate better end.

I personally think that almost all of the conflict in the world over the last 50 years can be traced back to the west and russia meddling in the affairs of sovereign states. I don't find that acceptable when it comes from either party and I am unwilling to excuse it simply because it is coming from "my side".

Br Cornelius

[TSS]

I said quite plainly that the situation was influenced by foreign intervention from the EU and USA. that seems fine for you but not for me. That is the ultimate issue here - does the west have the right to inflict espionage onto sovereign countries because you believe that thewy are working for some ultimate better end.

I personally think that almost all of the conflict in the world over the last 50 years can be traced back to the west and russia meddling in the affairs of sovereign states. I don't find that acceptable when it comes from either party and I am unwilling to excuse it simply because it is coming from "my side".

Br Cornelius

"A right to inflict espionage" - what on earth are you on about? There has never been a "right" in the worlds second oldest profession, I have no idea what you are even trying to say with that. Who in the entire history of the planet has given anyone permission where espionage is concerned when relating to their own country. That sentence makes no logical sense.

You are always keen to point out the flaws of those who want their own country out of the EU, you're more then happy for the countries decisions to be made in Brussels - why can't Ukraine have that option?

[Electric Scooter]

I said quite plainly that the situation was influenced by foreign intervention from the EU and USA. that seems fine for you but not for me. That is the ultimate issue here - does the west have the right to inflict espionage onto sovereign countries because you believe that thewy are working for some ultimate better end.

I personally think that almost all of the conflict in the world over the last 50 years can be traced back to the west and russia meddling in the affairs of sovereign states. I don't find that acceptable when it comes from either party and I am unwilling to excuse it simply because it is coming from "my side".

Br Cornelius

The conflict is messy not a black and white issue.

On one side are pro-EU Ukrainians who want to take their whole country into the union. On the other side are pro-Russia Ukrainians and citizens of Russian descent who want to keep their Easten Alignment. Both can't win but there is a lot of propaganda, lies and distortions going on from both sides as each tries to get their claws into Ukraine the deepest.

The latest lies about Russian forces invading Eastern Ukraine and getting destroyed are laughable. There is not one photo, not one video, not one shred of evidence anywhere indicating this has happened.

[+Hammerclaw]

To sum up stand of this thread's politburo, America is wrong, the E.U. is wrong, the majority of the Ukrainian electorate is wrong and Mother Russia is right. Does that just about sum it up, guys? Cowardly abdication=being deposed. Any democratically elected government in Russia's Near Abroad is fascist if it does not walk in lockstep with the Kremlin. Democracy bad, heavy hand Russian authoritarianism good and so on? About time for Putin's baldheaded hand puppet to chime in about how awful people are for blaming everything on poor pitiful Vladimir.

[Guest]

"A right to inflict espionage" - what on earth are you on about? There has never been a "right" in the worlds second oldest profession, I have no idea what you are even trying to say with that. Who in the entire history of the planet has given anyone permission where espionage is concerned when relating to their own country. That sentence makes no logical sense.

You are always keen to point out the flaws of those who want their own country out of the EU, you're more then happy for the countries decisions to be made in Brussels - why can't Ukraine have that option?

So you are in favour of the EU been allowed to use espionage in a none member state to influence their politics. Thats the issue here - I am not.

Member states are committed by treaty to follow the rules of the EU and that makes the situation entirely different for the UK compared to ukraine which has no such obligations.

Br Cornelius