Germany Severing Profitable Ties to Russia

[Guest]

To sum up stand of this thread's politburo, America is wrong, the E.U. is wrong, the majority of the Ukrainian electorate is wrong and Mother Russia is right. Does that just about sum it up, guys? Cowardly abdication=being deposed. Any democratically elected government in Russia's Near Abroad is fascist if it does not walk in lockstep with the Kremlin. Democracy bad, heavy hand Russian authoritarianism good and so on? About time for Putin's baldheaded hand puppet to chime in about how awful people are for blaming everything on poor pitiful Vladimir.

Your been rather hysterical there old boy. The only Fascists been talked about are those who espouse fascist doctrines and to attempt to say that anyone has claimed otherwise is simply dishonest rhetoric.

The simple fact here is that the US and EU orchestrated a coup by using certain right wing elements in Ukraine. That is the fact that the Kiev apologists just don't want to face up to.

Br Cornelius

[keithisco]

Your been rather hysterical there old boy. The only Fascists been talked about are those who espouse fascist doctrines and to attempt to say that anyone has claimed otherwise is simply dishonest rhetoric.

The simple fact here is that the US and EU orchestrated a coup by using certain right wing elements in Ukraine. That is the fact that the Kiev apologists just don't want to face up to.

Br Cornelius

The person invoking Godwinism appears to be just yourself - you are the one making claims about a Fascist conspiracy in the pay of the EU and USA, that the Kiev Government is riddled with Neo - Nazis, heck you even got the number of Ministries headed by Svoboda wrong, and are not able to recognise that Svoboda itself has distanced itself from the right - wing in Ukraine.

Remember (it is a tenet of debate) that simply re-stating False information such as that emphasised by myself above, does not make it real. You have failed to provide ANY evidence for your claims, your best effort was to source a left - wing blogger (that was easily refuted with fact) - so the only person left in this thread simply relying on rhetoric and Confirmation Bias is yourself.

[Guest]

The person invoking Godwinism appears to be just yourself - you are the one making claims about a Fascist conspiracy in the pay of the EU and USA, that the Kiev Government is riddled with Neo - Nazis, heck you even got the number of Ministries headed by Svoboda wrong, and are not able to recognise that Svoboda itself has distanced itself from the right - wing in Ukraine.

Remember (it is a tenet of debate) that simply re-stating False information such as that emphasised by myself above, does not make it real. You have failed to provide ANY evidence for your claims, your best effort was to source a left - wing blogger (that was easily refuted with fact) - so the only person left in this thread simply relying on rhetoric and Confirmation Bias is yourself.

Svoboda have done a PR act - that is all. They and other fascistic groupings still had active militias working throughout the campaign. Just live in denial Keith.

Even the BBC reported and acknowledged this reality.

Br Cornelius

Edited August 18, 2014 by Guest

[TSS]

So you are in favour of the EU been allowed to use espionage in a none member state to influence their politics. Thats the issue here - I am not.

Member states are committed by treaty to follow the rules of the EU and that makes the situation entirely different for the UK compared to ukraine which has no such obligations.

Br Cornelius

Everyone attempts to influence everyone else's politics, it's just a matter of degrees of influence. The reason Ukraine has no such obligations to follow rules of the EU is because you are in favour of not giving them that option. Your opinion amounts to being happy to not let the citizens of the Ukraine have any options of joining the EU simply because you don't like the fact that countries try to influence other countries - and you seriously think that is a reasonable position to take?

[Duke Wellington]

Your been rather hysterical there old boy. The only Fascists been talked about are those who espouse fascist doctrines and to attempt to say that anyone has claimed otherwise is simply dishonest rhetoric.

The simple fact here is that the US and EU orchestrated a coup by using certain right wing elements in Ukraine. That is the fact that the Kiev apologists just don't want to face up to.

Br Cornelius

Thats correct. Two minor far-right parties both of whom are openly Nazi were supported by the West to coup the Ukrainian Government. As they started passing laws to discriminate against citizens with Russian decent (illegal to speak Russian, illegal to hold Russian passport, etc)....

Would they have gone as far as ethnic cleansing? Sensing the direction things were heading then Russia decided not to take the risk and moved in. They are well within their rights to protect the lives and wellbeing of Russian people against the potential threat. If Spain started on ex-pat Brits we'd do the same.

[+Hammerclaw]

Your been rather hysterical there old boy. The only Fascists been talked about are those who espouse fascist doctrines and to attempt to say that anyone has claimed otherwise is simply dishonest rhetoric.

The simple fact here is that the US and EU orchestrated a coup by using certain right wing elements in Ukraine. That is the fact that the Kiev apologists just don't want to face up to.

Br Cornelius

My interpretation of events is there was a cowardly abdication of office after a paranoid head of state perpetrated a massacre of peaceful demonstrators orchestrated by his communist masters in the Kremlin. If we are going to start blathering cold war rhetoric, we might as well take the gloves off. Repression of freedom of expression is all the rage these days in Russia, as she slides back into dictatorship.

[+Hammerclaw]

Thats correct. Two minor far-right parties both of whom are openly Nazi were supported by the West to coup the Ukrainian Government. As they started passing laws to discriminate against citizens with Russian decent (illegal to speak Russian, illegal to hold Russian passport, etc)....

Would they have gone as far as ethnic cleansing? Sensing the direction things were heading then Russia decided not to take the risk and moved in. They are well within their rights to protect the lives and wellbeing of Russian people against the potential threat. If Spain started on ex-pat Brits we'd do the same.

That's all lies. There was no repression of ethnic Russians, and the Russian language is the lingua franca of Kiev. How easily you accuse Ukrainians of Nazism, while blythely ignoring the Post- Communist Russian Neo Fascism festering in Moscow under Comrade Putin's tutelage

[Finity]

Pro-USA, pro-Russia. It's all BS....

Modern politicians are only pro-themselves, appart from very few acceptions. They will lean which ever way benefits them and theirs. When was the last time you saw one of them leading from the front and accepting accountability?

But anyway. The Russian press is purely a properganda wall (some of it is even directly owned by the state). You can't trust what they say at all, especially when they are the only ones telling a different story to the rest of the world.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Finity

[keithisco]

Svoboda have done a PR act - that is all. They and other fascistic groupings still had active militias working throughout the campaign. Just live in denial Keith.

Even the BBC reported and acknowledged this reality.

Br Cornelius

"Denial" is an artefact of ignoring the actual Factual Data that is presented. I am not in "denial", I have the facts and the data to support everything that I have stated from multiple sources. YOU, on the other hand,, refuse to provide ANY DATA whatsoever....

Who is in denial Br???

[Crabby Kitten]

This is ridiculous and stupid. The West has lost its intelligence. We should ally with countries like Russia and not go through these petty sanctions as they will harm our own people more than anything else.