Thoughts on suicide?

[Iron_Lotus]

People should not completely trust their senses -- no matter how sane we think we are -- they censor what we get, they alter it and often just outright lie to us.

so very true

[pallidin]

Indeed, our senses are very poor with respect to other animals and, especially, the "Grand Scheme" of things, as it were.

Why this is, for the most developed animal(us) on our planet I have no clue.

This, it seems, necessarily causes problems, including depression and suicidal ideation in some people, including myself from time-to-time.

On that note, I'm going to have another beer...

[pallidin]

@ Iron_Lotus

Say, are you feeling any better, or about the same?

[pallidin]

Perhaps a little tune might help...

[pallidin]

Here's another one for you, Iron_Lotus...

[SSilhouette]

so very true

OK now hold on a minute. Let's add some ballast to this runaway balloon. This is a VERY dangerous concept to be introducing to a thread that is about suicide and people feeling the dissociation and all the rest that depression carries with it.

Of course the world is an illusion. But at the same time this life is as concrete as ever. It is both. And that is a hard knitting job for many to make. There will be a lot more progress for people with depression if you enchant them with the delights of the concrete world and leave the dissociative illusion stuff outside the door. It is both an illusion and as real as it can be.

[Iron_Lotus]

@ Iron_Lotus

Say, are you feeling any better, or about the same?

have my good days and bad and days that are good and bad lol im ok at this very moment but im fighting pretty hard to maintain

[Frank Merton]

OK now hold on a minute. Let's add some ballast to this runaway balloon. This is a VERY dangerous concept to be introducing to a thread that is about suicide and people feeling the dissociation and all the rest that depression carries with it.

Of course the world is an illusion. But at the same time this life is as concrete as ever. It is both. And that is a hard knitting job for many to make. There will be a lot more progress for people with depression if you enchant them with the delights of the concrete world and leave the dissociative illusion stuff outside the door. It is both an illusion and as real as it can be.

What's your problem? All illusions by definition have a reality that generates them. Are you thinking I was talking about delusion? I wasn't.

There are delights in the illusion, but we have no direct access to what you call the concrete world (although it is hardly that -- it is atoms and electromagnetic waves and what have you doing a dance). Our only access to the outside world is through our senses.

[GrimmOne]

The problem occurs when you doubt your reality to the point of it literally shutting you down which is what it was doing to me before I went to get help. I wasn't going to work, I wasn't acting in my normal manners, more depressed, more agitated. I wasn't sleeping.

[SSilhouette]

The problem occurs when you doubt your reality to the point of it literally shutting you down which is what it was doing to me before I went to get help. I wasn't going to work, I wasn't acting in my normal manners, more depressed, more agitated. I wasn't sleeping.

Crying works. Sometimes just a human who understands you, doesn't judge you and who can embrace your fears can work. Without that, prayers work too.

[docyabut2]

My motto is to forgive what ever happened in the past that ever hurt you, because the only one suffering is one self

[Frank Merton]

Good motto. I try to forgive but not forget. By that I mean I don't hold a grudge or anything but I also think, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

[SSilhouette]

Good motto. I try to forgive but not forget. By that I mean I don't hold a grudge or anything but I also think, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

Exactly.

[spartan max2]

Good motto. I try to forgive but not forget. By that I mean I don't hold a grudge or anything but I also think, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

Thats the motto everyone goes by. But i always see it as if you haven't forget then did you truly forgive?

If we hold on to a member out of caution that they might wrong us again then did we ever really forgive them at all? That just dosent seem like it counts to me

[Skep B]

I would see it as being "don't look for revenge, but don't forget they're untrustworthy if they come to you again"

That doesn't quite roll off the tongue tho

[Kassekoe99]

Thats the motto everyone goes by. But i always see it as if you haven't forget then did you truly forgive?

If we hold on to a member out of caution that they might wrong us again then did we ever really forgive them at all? That just dosent seem like it counts to me

Yes, you can forgive and not forget. Forgiveness comes with understanding and just letting go of the anger you hold. It took me many years to forgive my mother. I couldn't have forgiven her any sooner than I did because it took that long for me to reach the understanding of why the events occurred. That doesn't mean I condone her thought process or actions. Once I could rationally understand, I was able to let it go. It doesn't change the past. It does change the future. I will never forget what happened but I am at peace with her role in it all. We are rebuilding our relationship but I do not worry about her future actions. It is what it is.

[Ben Masada]

Good motto. I try to forgive but not forget. By that I mean I don't hold a grudge or anything but I also think, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

That's a good and true motto, Frank. But with regards to trying to forgive but not to forget is not real. Neither is real. To forget is naturally impossible and, to forgive becomes as one remembers.

[Kassekoe99]

That's a good and true motto, Frank. But with regards to trying to forgive but not to forget is not real. Neither is real. To forget is naturally impossible and, to forgive becomes as one remembers.

Maybe it's just me being lost as usual, but I'm not understanding what you mean. Sure we don't forget things, but we can be unable to recall the information. It's the "to forgive becomes as one remembers" that I'm not following. What do you mean?

[GrimmOne]

Crying works. Sometimes just a human who understands you, doesn't judge you and who can embrace your fears can work. Without that, prayers work too.

That's the other thing Iv been tremendously down/sad/depressed/frustrated and the tears never come.

[Frank Merton]

Thats the motto everyone goes by. But i always see it as if you haven't forget then did you truly forgive?

If we hold on to a member out of caution that they might wrong us again then did we ever really forgive them at all? That just dosent seem like it counts to me

I think you are wrong. The fact is I don't need to forgive, but I put it in those terms for understanding. The main point is not being judgmental, and realizing that people do bad things for all sorts of reasons not always under their control and even when it is under their control it is their burden not mine.

As far as being aware of the past behavior of the particular person, this is just wisdom. We can be generous and non-judgmental, but we must not be naïve.

[Frank Merton]

That's the other thing Iv been tremendously down/sad/depressed/frustrated and the tears never come.

A good cry helps a lot, but some people just don't cry. So do other things.

[Seeker76]

Hi,

Nothing is simple. I would never presume myself so wise or intelligent, as to judge a person's actions assuming I understand their intent. I think it's an interesting concept, the idea that we must stay alive for the sake of other people - pity the terminally ill and others who have no choice!

From my training in helping prevent suicide, I know that "guilting" people into staying safe is not an advisable option. At that point it is very important the person finds their own reason(s) to stay safe "for now" (ie delay the irreversible act and try other options). Suggesting they should "think about how it will devastate others" is not helpful - in fact it is likely to increase their sense of helplessness.

As will all issues, there is no one-size-fits-all. So to say every act of suicide as selfish is simply erroneous - without speaking to every person who suicide, analyzing their life and its impacts, etc. etc. An impossible task.

Here in Australia, our government's management of refugees is HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSE (my opinion), and several people stuck in this situation - indefinitely imprisoned without charge, deprived of human rights, told they will never be settled - have suicide. Several mothers attempted suicide in order to fasttrack medical help for their children - I challenge a person to find the selfishness in that.

If (any of) you are struggling with thoughts of suicide, I am happy to chat and support you. PM me.

[Ben Masada]

Maybe it's just me being lost as usual, but I'm not understanding what you mean. Sure we don't forget things, but we can be unable to recall the information. It's the "to forgive becomes as one remembers" that I'm not following. What do you mean?

To forgive becomes also akin to impossible as we remember.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Ben Masada

[SSilhouette]

To forgive becomes also akin to impossible as we remember.

Think of it this way and it may help. Life is really like a video game. Beyond that I'll not elaborate. Suffice to say that every ogre or intolerable situation has a special "cheat" to it, even if one has to get very creative. Even if one has to stand on one's head to figure out a way. Even if one has to try that level of the game 100 times, take reprieves, mull it over, and try again.

If you commit suicide [give up, throw the joystick out the window and stomp on the disc], you will not escape the lessons and trials. And worse, you'll have to start way way back to the beginning because the new disc won't have saved your progress thusfar. You'll have to wade through all those lower levels again to get to the same lesson anyway. And word has it "on the other side" that if you bail out enough in this way, you don't get another chance and have to go to that place where the video game is never won and you never get out of that same level.

So word to the wise. Find a way out. Even if you have to stand on your head. But don't think killing yourself is going to be the answer. Because it isn't.

Put as much emotional hatred of your real life foes as you would in a green elf demon or a long-fanged mutant warthog. They aren't to be hated. They are to be defeated. Hating drains your "special manna points". And when your special manna points are drained, you lose life-powers [become depressed]. As with video games this is often the way you lose a bout with a foe. So you simply and efficiently sidestep or defeat or escape that which you used to think you had to hate.

Edited September 21, 2014 by SSilhouette

[Ben Masada]

Think of it this way and it may help. Life is really like a video game. Beyond that I'll not elaborate. Suffice to say that every ogre or intolerable situation has a special "cheat" to it, even if one has to get very creative. Even if one has to stand on one's head to figure out a way. Even if one has to try that level of the game 100 times, take reprieves, mull it over, and try again.

If you commit suicide [give up, throw the joystick out the window and stomp on the disc], you will not escape the lessons and trials. And worse, you'll have to start way way back to the beginning because the new disc won't have saved your progress thusfar. You'll have to wade through all those lower levels again to get to the same lesson anyway. And word has it "on the other side" that if you bail out enough in this way, you don't get another chance and have to go to that place where the video game is never won and you never get out of that same level.

So word to the wise. Find a way out. Even if you have to stand on your head. But don't think killing yourself is going to be the answer. Because it isn't.

Put as much emotional hatred of your real life foes as you would in a green elf demon or a long-fanged mutant warthog. They aren't to be hated. They are to be defeated. Hating drains your "special manna points". And when your special manna points are drained, you lose life-powers [become depressed]. As with video games this is often the way you lose a bout with a foe. So you simply and efficiently sidestep or defeat or escape that which you used to think you had to hate.

That was a great elaboration that we almost missed if we had not gone beyond the point you promised not to elaborate.