Thoughts on suicide?

[Frank Merton]

Killing yourself when you are clinically depressed (the vast majority of suicides) is not seen as a "way out." The depressed probably understand what death is, or at least comprehend it in their guts, better than most people, because they think about it a lot more than most.

Therefore trying to tell them that it is not a "way out" is not going to work, and only will make matters worse because the depressed person thinks, "This guy has no sympathy or understanding."

[White Crane Feather]

Well....in spirit I agree but not in excess. Depression is also a disease of energy depletion. "Strenuous exercise" and too much sex are both heavy energy drains. [As I think you already know, sex is probably the most expensive energy drain there is and hence the reason shaman avoid it] Maybe cuddling a lot? ...lol.. Also, people with depression experience very low libidos commonly and the last thing you want a depressed guy to get on his way out of the mental pit he's in is "performance trouble". Heavy exercise also dumps a bunch of toxic load in the body to have to process and that sometimes [depending on age and condition] can make one quite ill too. Though I do agree that aerobic exercise in a moderate aerobic program would do the brain good with increased oxygen.

But yes, the water. Water helps flush out toxins that may be making the head fuzzy too. Just be sure to keep those water soluable vitamins on hand every couple of days to replenish what you wash out.

That is a myth. Traditionally healers were normal functional members of their tribes with families and husbands and wives. The piute have even adopted homosexual traits as being particularly shamanic. Where absitinance comes into spiritual life is a pushing away of sexual activity like somone pushes away a plate of to much food. Highly spiritual holy men to not abstain because of energy problems or taboo. They abstain because they walk a line between both worlds and their minds and energy are indeed divided. They don't really have an interest anymore. These are usually the deepest of holy men. None if this can be forced or even chosen it simply evolves into what it is.

In science the things i suggested produce dopamines/endorphins

The constant presence of these neurotransmitters stimulates the brain to produce more receptors thereby hopefully actually curing depression.

It's the function of much depression medication to increase the average amount of these these neurotransmitters in the brain getting the person by until they can do it themselves or forever If they cannot. All my suggestions are things that do the same things drugs do with not much maybe even less better results. But if receptors are burned out because of to much stimulation from drugs or cortesol ( a stress hormone) then we have problems because we have to build them back with applying more stress. The incidence of Depression is very low amoungst shamanic lead communities and ill let anyone doing their own research to figure out why?

Edited September 22, 2014 by White Crane Feather

[SSilhouette]

That is a myth. Traditionally healers were normal functional members of their tribes with families and husbands and wives. The piute have even adopted homosexual traits as being particularly shamanic. Where absitinance comes into spiritual life is a pushing away of sexual activity like somone pushes away a plate of to much food. Highly spiritual holy men to not abstain because of energy problems or taboo. They abstain because they walk a line between both worlds and their minds and energy are indeed divided. They don't really have an interest anymore. These are usually the deepest of holy men. None if this can be forced or even chosen it simply evolves into what it is.

In science the things i suggested produce dopamines/endorphins

The constant presence of these neurotransmitters stimulates the brain to produce more receptors thereby hopefully actually curing depression.

It's the function of much depression medication to increase the average amount of these these neurotransmitters in the brain getting the person by until they can do it themselves or forever If they cannot. All my suggestions are things that do the same things drugs do with not much maybe even less better results. But if receptors are burned out because of to much stimulation from drugs or cortesol ( a stress hormone) then we have problems because we have to build them back with applying more stress. The incidence of Depression is very low amoungst shamanic lead communities and ill let anyone doing their own research to figure out why?

That's funny. You say what I said is a myth and then go on to agree with me...lol...

Shaman do go without sex traditionally. Moreover, even regular old indian warriors went without sex and meditated before a war party went out. Those indians knew about the finite energy of the human form.

Funny story actually. I know this guy who is a logger. He had been without a woman for years because of a trauma with an ex wife. So he became sort of a self-imposed monk/workaholic. But recently he ment a gal and started sleeping with her regularly. Within two weeks of this, his stellar record on the crew out in the woods went to shambles. He started having to sleep half way out to the site in his truck and was late. And he was so tired one day he rolled a loader worth probably over $100K. And it was stuck for some time in a gulley before the crew could get it out. So it cost the crew almost a week in lost work. And trees. And profits...

Sex is expensive energetically. People who are depressed should feel absolutely comfortable and grounded in the fact that they should avoid it at all costs until their body builds up new stores of energy. People predisposed to depression should only have sex minimally as their human form is probably dealing with less energy than most to begin with. No shame in it at all. Perfectly normal and sane strategy of staying alive and making the most of the form you have.

Edited September 23, 2014 by SSilhouette

[Frank Merton]

Sex if it is good is going to break depression, not make it worse. Sorry, but I think what you say is not just nonsense but harmful nonsense. The "afterglow" of good sex (the short time when one often falls in love with one's partner) comes from a rush of oxytosin, and that is just the sort of thing a depressed person needs. The problem with sex and the depressed is to get the depressed interested.

(I am not recommending sex as a treatment for depression, just that celibacy or its opposite are irrelevant). Close

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[SSilhouette]

Sex if it is good is going to break depression, not make it worse. Sorry, but I think what you say is not just nonsense but harmful nonsense. The "afterglow" of good sex (the short time when one often falls in love with one's partner) comes from a rush of oxytosin, and that is just the sort of thing a depressed person needs. The problem with sex and the depressed is to get the depressed interested.

(I am not recommending sex as a treatment for depression, just that celibacy or its opposite are irrelevant). Close

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I think you're wrong about that Frank. Like any drug that produces a temporary "high", the rush of oxytocin is just that...a rush...followed by a lassitude that could be deadly. So actually your advice may not only be wrong, but harmfully so...

I took a class once in biology and learned about "the most expensive activities to the human body". This was of course in terms of pure "metabolic energy". That's the sceptic's description of "the finite energy of the human form" that we're talking about here in pure energetics. The body and spirit are oddly intertwined and the body will draw off the spirit's energy to a fatal degree sometimes. Here's the run down as I remember it. I welcome corrections if there are any biology or physiology people reading this. In order of most expensive energetically to least: .

1. Reproduction [sex]

2. Digestion

3. Cognitive processing [brain power]

a. speech being the most taxing thereof

4. Immune system activity

5. Muscle activity

In the case of my logger friend who is otherwise healthy, too much sex was causing a depression in his other functions.. Notably #3 and #5. Much to the chagrin of his crew boss. Somehow they didn't fire him. But I believe he was politely warned to "get some space" from his new girlfriend...lol..

Edited September 23, 2014 by SSilhouette

[Frank Merton]

You are basing all this on your assertion that you took a class in biology.

I do hope you never actually deal with a depressed person. You will do great harm.Close

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[SSilhouette]

You are basing all this on your assertion that you took a class in biology.

I do hope you never actually deal with a depressed person. You will do great harm.Close

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I think you are speaking from your gender instead of what makes sense. Please find where reproduction and sex are not expensive metabolically and post it here. In fact we hear all the time of demanding jobs and how male workers especially are warned to avoid women while working hard. There is a reason for that. A real, concrete reason so obvious [like rolling a $100K log loader] of how taxing sex is that it's become a household phenomenon.

Edited September 23, 2014 by SSilhouette

[J. K.]

Therefore trying to tell them that it is not a "way out" is not going to work, and only will make matters worse because the depressed person thinks, "This guy has no sympathy or understanding."

This statement illustrates what a depressed person wants. "Empathy" would be a good word as well.

Imagine standing at the bottom of a swimming pool and trying to walk. Every movement is a struggle as you move in slow motion. It doesn't matter how much energy you expend, you're going to move slowly.

Now imagine that everyone around is moving at normal speed. The water doesn't impede their progress. They are not even aware that the water exists! In fact, they say you're just imagining things, and that you'll feel better if you just try.

Whether or not the causation is real or imagined, the depression is real, and the person knows it.

[Frank Merton]

I think you are speaking from your gender instead of what makes sense. Please find where reproduction and sex are not expensive metabolically and post it here. In fact we hear all the time of demanding jobs and how male workers especially are warned to avoid women while working hard. There is a reason for that. A real, concrete reason so obvious [like rolling a $100K log loader] of how taxing sex is that it's become a household phenomenon.

I think you have the burden of proving what you say. The notion you are promoting is so bizarre I strongly doubt any reputable group has even considered it, let alone studied it. It gets me when people who promote personal notions assert that others have the burden of proving them wrong. Close

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[Frank Merton]

With depressed people expressions of sympathy, even genuine empathic statements, have no effect. It is a brain chemical that brings about their interpreting such statements in the most negative possible way. The only thing to do with a depressive is get them medical help.

Close

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[J. K.]

They do have effect. A depressed person's feelings need to be acknowledged as being real, otherwise healing will never begin. I don't dismiss the use of medicines; they are necessary as well.

[Frank Merton]

I would certainly recommend being sympathetic rather than give the person a lecture about bucking up or something of that sort, but you have to understand that a clinically depressed person (rather than someone only sad or in grief) is in a different world. People must not project their mood and what they think would work for them onto such a person. It is almost certainly seriously counterproductive.

As far as drugs go, what we have (for practically any medical problem) tends to be a sledgehammer, doing a variety of things, some of which we see and some which we don't know about. Still, given a brick wall, I would rather take a sledgehammer to it.Close

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[J. K.]

Trust me, I understand clinical depression. It is true that the "buck up" lectures don't work, and medicine is not a cure-all.

[Ben Masada]

Killing yourself when you are clinically depressed (the vast majority of suicides) is not seen as a "way out." The depressed probably understand what death is, or at least comprehend it in their guts, better than most people, because they think about it a lot more than most.

Therefore trying to tell them that it is not a "way out" is not going to work, and only will make matters worse because the depressed person thinks, "This guy has no sympathy or understanding."

IMHO, it does not matter how one feels or under what circumstance one is found, if he commits suicide he has found a way out as he or she is concerned. What does not seem a fair way out is left for the family and friends to figure and find that it was not. The dead is no longer part of any conjecture.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Ben Masada

[Frank Merton]

IMHO, it does not matter how one feels or under what circumstance one is found, if he commits suicide he has found a way out as he or she is concerned. What does not seem a fair way out is left for the family and friends to figure and find that it was not. The dead is no longer part of any conjecture.

This is true I suppose. I don't think its a good way out though, with some exceptions. For those with intermittent depression (the majority by far), it is a tragedy both for them and their families and friends.Close

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[Ben Masada]

This is true I suppose. I don't think its a good way out though, with some exceptions. For those with intermittent depression (the majority by far), it is a tragedy both for them and their families and friends.

Furthermore, funny as it might appear, even if the dead could return from the grave, he would tell us that it was a good way out. Wanna guess why? Finish the sentence so that I see you are in tune with me.