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F3SS

Thoughts on suicide?

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XenoFish
Read that off an empowerment brochure, did you?

Actually no I didn't. That's all me.

Like it or not, we are all subject to the biological reality that is the human body. We are all chemically influenced. Some of use waiver far enough from the norm for it to be an issue, sometimes a fatal one, either by birth or circumstance. Acknowledging the existence of a bell curve isn't the same as demanding support for the people who die. It is, however, a demand for respect for those of us who still live. In the same way that walking into a cancer ward and claiming that a victim of cancer was selfish because they chose to die, either intentionally or because they "didn't realize" they had the strength to fight will likely see you with a blackened eye. Neither the current victims of cancer, nor their friends and relatives would tolerate such an insult.

Let put this into a different perspective shall we? Choices, we all make them. A cancer patient can fight a losing battle but at least they fought, or they can just give up. Someone suffering from severe depression can get the help they need, or they can just give in. A person can end their life, or choose to change it through whatever means necessary.

Now let's go back to my original statement that you quoted. If you have the strength to end your life (which is a choice), you have the strength to change it (which is a choice). You just have to realize it(acknowledge it). What this means is that all things come down to your choices. You can get help or not, it's your choice. You can be a slave to your problems and let them eat away at your soul. Again that is your choice. So whatever path you choose and decided upon create a potential future. Those decision creates our lives. How we act and react to other does as well. It is my opinion that it's better to go down fighting than just give up. Every problem in life has a solution, ending one's life doesn't have to be one of them.

Edited by XenoFish
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Skep B

But it is a solution, isn't it?

Take away someone's rational thinking, and it seems like the easiest solution to all problems.

It's easy to look at that situation and say "well if they just had done etc etc etc"

I know, I love doing that to people, it's one of the few pleasures I have in life. Pointing out where they did something wrong is what I live for.

That being said. Your line of thinking can work another way.

You can choose to allow a suicide to affect you negatively, or you can move on with your life. Because it just doesn't affect you.

People who commit suicide aren't in a place where they can fully think, they're in a place where they've allowed their emotions to make their decisions.

Same as someone who sees suicide as selfish. That's an emotional decision. It's their life, they ended it. End of their story. You live on, and make the choices you see as right in your life.

People who commit suicide don't do it without having fought. You said yourself, if you have strength to kill yourself, you've strength to fight. Well, they probably did fight, and lost hope.

Why exactly is it better to live in constant pain and suffering, than to go out while you still have some dignity? I mean that specifically about the cancer or sickness issue.

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XenoFish

It all come's down to the individual and their choice. I simply seek to encourage them to push through hardships and what might seem like impossible odds. Whatever they do is up to them. It will affect those around them in some way or another.

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Skep B

If they chose to let it, yes.

I believe anything can be used to benefit though. Even death.

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XenoFish

I can agree with you. People end their lives for causes, going to their willing death for their beliefs. Become martyrs. Soldiers and warriors respected for their sacrifices. Death is truly the unknown. One day I shall meet death again and I shall not return. The world will go on but I'll go out fighting.

Possibilities, possibilities, our future are wrapped in possibilities. Choices and actions with inevitable results. Tomorrow only has the meaning you give it.

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Skep B

With that thought, if tomorrow all you can see is pain and suffering that serves no purpose, and you've lost hope in fighting out of it, why is it wrong to end that suffering?

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F3SS

If you want people to pull through their pain, you did a terrible job at communicating it.

Comments like "He freaking hung himself. How selfish.", and "I feel that it is the greatest act of selfishness one can commit. It accomplishes nothing but to escape any and all responsibility and dumps it on those left behind to deal with wether they want to or not, wether they can or not.", you know full well you are going to provoke a response.

That you don't bother to qualify it when you make the original statement forces others to come to their own conclusions regarding your remark. If you don't like the conclusion they come to, you should have avoided them from the outset by explaining your position in full, instead of letting people assume, justifiably so, that an insult was made to a person who was suffering from a medical condition.

And yes, "selfish" is considered insulting, being that the implication of the word is almost always used in reference to personal gain of some kind. When a person kills themselves out of complete despair, they aren't gaining anything and they know it.

I still have no idea what you mean by "accidental" suicide, though. Isn't that an oxymoron?

And suicide is often associated with cowardice, particularly in the manner you are using it, but that is neither here nor there. The main problem here is that you are perpetuating the myth that depression is something imaginary. To refer to a person as selfish for suffering from depression is the same as referring to the family of the victim (yep, victim) as selfish because they all feel horrible and sad at his death. Both claims are equally ridiculous.

I expect response but for you to think I'm antagonizing is off base. After several comments from this thread and the other you've laid the accusation of some type of agenda. I mean to be clear. I don't mean to be open ended and antagonizing. If one doesn't feel that I'm clear a back and forth conversation with q&a would do more good than reacting with animosity towards my opinion. I know that's the nature of the beast but I'm not out to offend. Perhaps it doesn't seem so here but I know my opinion isn't one of a kind.

It is not justifiable to assume my intent is ill. Assumptions are the foil of Internet conversations. Again, and again, and once again, I haven't spoken ill of depression or anyone who is going through it. Before you react, yes I haven't been so kind on those who have given up on it, permanently.

Accidental: OD, misfire, drunk driving, failed attempts at motorcycle jumps, diving in the shallow end, jumping out of a plane with a bad parachute... All stupid things that could've been prevented but at least none are intentional.

I never perpetuated any such myth. You and others have for me. You'd rather assume I'm intentionally agenda driven and aggravating instead of asking for clarity or reasonable follow up questions.

Read that off an empowerment brochure, did you?

Let's try and apply it to other situations:

"If you have the strength to drown, you have the strength to swim. You just have to realize it."

"If you have the strength to live after snapping your spine, you have the strength to walk. You just have to realize it"

"If you have the strength to live to 80, you have the strength to live to 100. You just have to realize it."

No.

Like it or not, we are all subject to the biological reality that is the human body. We are all chemically influenced. Some of use waiver far enough from the norm for it to be an issue, sometimes a fatal one, either by birth or circumstance. Acknowledging the existence of a bell curve isn't the same as demanding support for the people who die. It is, however, a demand for respect for those of us who still live. In the same way that walking into a cancer ward and claiming that a victim of cancer was selfish because they chose to die, either intentionally or because they "didn't realize" they had the strength to fight will likely see you with a blackened eye. Neither the current victims of cancer, nor their friends and relatives would tolerate such an insult.

And there you go making fun of somebody who has actually gone through some things. How do you not see your hypocrisy there?

None of those things are choices. You either can swim or you can't. You can either walk or you can't. You either live till or past 80 or you can't.

You either cut your wrists or you don't. There's a big difference between can't and don't. Regardless of the psychology behind depression, one isn't a choice, the other is.

Further, assisted suicide due to terminal illness isn't quite the same as tying a belt around your neck in the middle of the night and checking out without warning. I'm not quite sure about the 'assisted' kind but that's really a whole other subject matter.

According to what I'm reading from you and others I ask, should clinically depressed people have a right to die? Should they have a right to have a medical professional pull their plug? I don't think depression and cancer are one in the same, though one could cause the other, but with all these 'analogies' it looks like many of you feel they belong in the same argument.

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XenoFish
With that thought, if tomorrow all you can see is pain and suffering that serves no purpose, and you've lost hope in fighting out of it, why is it wrong to end that suffering?

That would largely depend on the individuals beliefs. Again it is always up to them.

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F3SS

With that thought, if tomorrow all you can see is pain and suffering that serves no purpose, and you've lost hope in fighting out of it, why is it wrong to end that suffering?

Think of the person you're the closest too. Imagine they tell you they've fought enough. Do you tell them it's right to end it?

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Skep B

I already have.

I'm not an emotional man. I don't cling to things.

*edited to add explanation*

Edited by Scheming B

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EnderOTD

Two of my friends have committed suicide. The one left behind a newborn child and two grieving girlfriends who now blame themselves for him killing himself. My other buddy was a bit older and both of his kids were in their mid teens. He had moved from Minnesota and down to Arizona to live with some women he met online. He pretty much broke off all contact with his family and a year latter he shows up in a body bag. He hung himself.

I've battled with depression going on 15 years now, I don't have any children nor am I involved in any long term relationship. I've been damn close to achieving suicide several times and the only thing that ever brought me back to reality is thinking about my family and all the **** I've put them through. Why the hell would I put more weight on their shoulders? I have been there several times, and I think it is selfish to put that grief and the unanswered questions on your family.

I'm pretty conflicted on this issue and as such I'm sitting on the fence. While the person who is committing the suicide may have not a single selfish reason to do it, on the other hand them succeeding it is a selfish act I believe.

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spartan max2

Think of the person you're the closest too. Imagine they tell you they've fought enough. Do you tell them it's right to end it?

I would tell them I don't want them to end it and I'll try to help them. But I don't really see it as right or wrong

But to your other comments about it being selfish and cowardly I think I'll just end my argument with saying that some things in life you have to experience to understand. I use to look at it the same way you did I really did. But experience changed that

Edited by spartan max2

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Paranoid Android

None of those things are choices. You either can swim or you can't. You can either walk or you can't. You either live till or past 80 or you can't.

You either cut your wrists or you don't. There's a big difference between can't and don't. Regardless of the psychology behind depression, one isn't a choice, the other is.

That's the thing about severe clinical depression - things feel so bad that they CAN'T see any other way than to cut their wrists. It's not a choice. The only way to fix it is to get help before it gets to that point, and even then it's no guarantee for severe depression

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F3SS

But to your other comments about it being selfish and cowardly I think I'll just end my argument with saying that some things in life you have to experience to understand. I use to look at it the same way you did I really did. But experience changed that

Spartan, I haven't said cowardly. I don't entirely oppose the word but I haven't said it. As for me, I always felt this way but experience only solidified it.

That's the thing about severe clinical depression - things feel so bad that they CAN'T see any other way than to cut their wrists. It's not a choice. The only way to fix it is to get help before it gets to that point, and even then it's no guarantee for severe depression

Perhaps they can't see it but they don't have to do it. If they do it's a conscious and physical choice to go through the motions.

Edited by F3SS

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EnderOTD

It's kinda crazy to see other peoples rationalizations to this problem. Most are very different from my own. I've had a two fold experience with it, I have attempted and my friends have succeeded. I've been to their funerals and felt more angry than sad for them. Seen the wake of devastation they leave behind. Its all good though, they aren't suffering anymore.

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spartan max2

When my friend did I wasn't angry with her at all. I guess we all react diffrent though. But I may have felt diffrent if she left kids behind idk

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Paranoid Android

Perhaps they can't see it but they don't have to do it. If they do it's a conscious and physical choice to go through the motions.

True, but then I don't have to eat either. I can choose not to. But at some point the body will physically require sustenance to the point that I will feel I have no choice but to eat something, even though I still choose to eat.
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EnderOTD

When my friend did I wasn't angry with her at all. I guess we all react diffrent though. But I may have felt diffrent if she left kids behind idk

I may have been angry with myself to be honest. My one friend who left behind the newborn, I wasn't surprised, his older brother had committed suicide a couple years before. I remember telling him several times it wasn't his fault but he always blamed himself because he wasn't there to prevent it. It's such a difficult subject to wrap our heads around. It seems that everyone has different reasons and triggers.

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Iron_Lotus

i wasn't angry when i buried my friends who killed themselves nor would i ever be angry or think of them negatively they were my brothers i loved every one of them and i knew their struggles, and their pain, what they went through as kids which i wont talk about here. i felt sadness i've lost a lot of people in my life it's not pleasant and it hurts but i look past that because i understand, because i know nobody deserves to go through what they did nobody deserves to go through what we do, but we fight and we fight and we fight and we fight... every year, every month, every week, every day, every single second we fight, some of us cant keep fighting forever it's not fair for them to keep fighting and they shouldn't be forced to feel that they HAVE to, that's a torture nobody deserves.

edit: and by no means am i saying tell someone whos going through that to go and do it im just saying it's not a selfish or cowardly or stupid act in fact put a gun in your mouth and see if you can pull the trigger. its a terrible thing but thats not an easy thing to do and it sure as hell isnt cowardly.

Edited by Iron_Lotus
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EnderOTD

i wasn't angry when i buried my friends who killed themselves nor would i ever be angry or think of them negatively they were my brothers i loved every one of them and i knew their struggles, and their pain, what they went through as kids which i wont talk about here. i felt sadness i've lost a lot of people in my life it's not pleasant and it hurts but i look past that because i understand, because i know nobody deserves to go through what they did nobody deserves to go through what we do, but we fight and we fight and we fight and we fight... every year, every month, every week, every day, every single second we fight, some of us cant keep fighting forever it's not fair for them to keep fighting and they shouldn't be forced to feel that they HAVE to, that's a torture nobody deserves.

The pain never goes away man. That is life, life is struggle and pain and hardship with a few moments of reckless abandonment and pleasure. I would trade my life to keep living...life. But suicide is a choice, and my friends chose not to keep fighting, they chose not to keep struggling to make it better off for their children than they had it. I will never forget the great times we had with one another, how could I, those were my boys and me to them.

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Iron_Lotus

edit: with all respect ender for myself i have to step back from this thread now i cant continue with this one

Edited by Iron_Lotus
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EnderOTD

Understandable, this is a very difficult subject lotus, I'm surprised I spoke this much about this because I rarely bring it up to my friends and family.

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EnderOTD

edit: and by no means am i saying tell someone whos going through that to go and do it im just saying it's not a selfish or cowardly or stupid act in fact put a gun in your mouth and see if you can pull the trigger. its a terrible thing but thats not an easy thing to do and it sure as hell isnt cowardly.

I hear you here. I guess I'm a coward for not going through with it then? Sorry that was some dark humor on my part. I understand what your saying man, no worries. I've stood on the stool with a noose around my neck man, you don't have to explain anything to me. But i wish you would'nt drop out of the conversation.

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Iron_Lotus

no not at all and no need to apologize either what i said was a bit rough. this is a very personal topic not just for myself but many here its nice hearing peoples stories and the support between everyone is amazing, but debating on whether its selfish or wrong or whatever i just cant do that anymore it's tiresome and quite stressful perhaps id join a mental illness crazy coo coo people group thread haha but as of now as the young kids say im audi oh whatever.

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EnderOTD

no not at all and no need to apologize either what i said was a bit rough. this is a very personal topic not just for myself but many here its nice hearing peoples stories and the support between everyone is amazing, but debating on whether its selfish or wrong or whatever i just cant do that anymore it's tiresome and quite stressful perhaps id join a mental illness crazy coo coo people group thread haha but as of now as the young kids say im audi oh whatever.

Indeed to debate what a person was feeling at the time is pointless because ultimately, we don't know what drove them to it. I was just giving my 2 cents and experience.

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