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F3SS

Thoughts on suicide?

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F3SS

True, but then I don't have to eat either. I can choose not to. But at some point the body will physically require sustenance to the point that I will feel I have no choice but to eat something, even though I still choose to eat.

Oh c'mon. You're really grasping on that one.

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Paranoid Android

Oh c'mon. You're really grasping on that one.

I'm simply explaining the truth of severe clinical depression. It's up to you to accept or reject it.

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Emma_Acid

I'm simply explaining the truth of severe clinical depression. It's up to you to accept or reject it.

If you haven't been there, you don't get it. I wouldn't bother trying to explain it to someone who has never experienced clinical depression. It's like describing colour to a blind person.

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Hammerclaw

If you haven't been there, you don't get it. I wouldn't bother trying to explain it to someone who has never experienced clinical depression. It's like describing colour to a blind person.

True. Suicide is not something a sane, rational mind chooses. It's the last resort of an insane irrational mind driven to madness by the bleakest, blackest depression.

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Himalayan Mystic

Well I have personal experience of suicide and I did not die.

So, had I not tried it, would I feel different about the whole thing? Definitely yes.

It's easy to pass a judgement, isn't it. After all when things look bright, the miserable people

look like quite the losers, and we can bask in our own glory of success.

The important thing, I feel is to try to see if in some way we can reach out to someone

about to try it. That has some value. Judging should be left to god, I would say. :)

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Neognosis
Now let's go back to my original statement that you quoted. If you have the strength to end your life (which is a choice), you have the strength to change it (which is a choice).

Spoken like someone who has never been depressed.

When I hear about a suicide, and those who knew the suicide talk about how selfish that person was, I tend to have a better understanding of why the suicide felt completely hopeless and alone.

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Skep B

I would like to throw this out there.

If a person commits suicide, and it's considered selfish because of the pain some others might feel.

Isn't it selfish of the others to want the individual to keep suffering, just so they won't have to be sad/angry?

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aquatus1

Actually no I didn't. That's all me.

No, it isn't. It's a very common statement. It's a classic among the "It's all in the mind" genre, right up there with "You just need to get over it", and "Don't be a wuss".

Let put this into a different perspective shall we? Choices, we all make them.

Let's not pretend choices are are equal. A person choosing which sandwich they want for lunch and a person fighting for their lives are working under two entirely different frames of mind.

A cancer patient can fight a losing battle but at least they fought, or they can just give up. Someone suffering from severe depression can get the help they need, or they can just give in. A person can end their life, or choose to change it through whatever means necessary.

And when a person who has battled cancer dies, do you go the cancer center and announce that they had the strength to keep fighting, but chose to die?

You sure don't seem to have that problem when talking about depression.

Now let's go back to my original statement that you quoted. If you have the strength to end your life (which is a choice), you have the strength to change it (which is a choice).

You keep claiming that ending your life requires strength. That isn't true. More often than not, ending your life is what happens when you are out of strength. The only times I can think of that ending your life requires strength is when you are sacrificing it for others.

You just have to realize it(acknowledge it). What this means is that all things come down to your choices. You can get help or not, it's your choice. You can be a slave to your problems and let them eat away at your soul. Again that is your choice. So whatever path you choose and decided upon create a potential future. Those decision creates our lives. How we act and react to other does as well. It is my opinion that it's better to go down fighting than just give up. Every problem in life has a solution, ending one's life doesn't have to be one of them.

Yep, empowerment brochure.

That works fine for the kids who just downed an entire bottle of tylenol or their mother's sleeping pills because they got dumped. They choose to end their lives because they don't like the outcome of the present one; to them, suicide is the same is the same as hitting reset on their game console. They aren't victims; they are just stupid (and, since most of them tend to be pretty young, they have a right to be).

But to pretend that all suicide victims are equal, particularly when the majority of the posts are discussing severe depression, is ridiculous. Emotionally driven suicide and depression induced suicide are two entirely different things. Emotions influence choice, often more than rationality, but chemicals influence emotion, which is two levels beyond the point where rationality lies. You are at the shallow level, where you can actually conceive of convincing someone to see reason and make them feel better. The rest of us are talking about a medical condition where rationality is not going to help, and even if someone completely and totally believes you and understands your arguments, and agrees there is nothing really wrong and no reason to die, they will still want to die.

Depression isn't a choice, anymore than cancer is. Succumbing to depression isn't anymore of a choice than succumbing to cancer is. What is a choice is to come into a room without looking to see who is inside and loudly proclaiming that people who have been fighting against something for their entire lives are really nothing more than over-dramatic kids with broken hearts. That's not only shallow and useless, it's downright insulting and disrespectful.

Edited by aquatus1
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aquatus1
I expect response but for you to think I'm antagonizing is off base.

Considering how many people have responded to you with precisely the exact same notion, no, it isn't off-base. Whether or not you intended it, it is precisely what you did, like it or not. That you choose to ignore it is on you, not on anyone else.

After several comments from this thread and the other you've laid the accusation of some type of agenda.

I don't believe I've mentioned an agenda on this thread at all. On the other thread I did, because two or three posters where getting started on their pharmaceutical conspiracy rant.

It's not all about you.

I mean to be clear. I don't mean to be open ended and antagonizing. If one doesn't feel that I'm clear a back and forth conversation with q&a would do more good than reacting with animosity towards my opinion. I know that's the nature of the beast but I'm not out to offend. Perhaps it doesn't seem so here but I know my opinion isn't one of a kind.

Well, in the interests of discussion, understand that you come off as open-ended and antagonizing when you say things like "He freaking hung himself. How selfish" when talking about a victim of depression surrounded by posts from people suffering from depression.

We aren't even talking about being politically correct. This is just basic situational awareness. It's basic manners. Yes, people get offended when you don't have manners.

It is not justifiable to assume my intent is ill. Assumptions are the foil of Internet conversations. Again, and again, and once again, I haven't spoken ill of depression or anyone who is going through it. Before you react, yes I haven't been so kind on those who have given up on it, permanently.

Fine. You are still terrible at communicating. I bet you haven't even noticed that you are spending just as much time complaining about people mistaking your intent as you are explaining yourself. You could have easily avoided all that from the start.

Accidental: OD, misfire, drunk driving, failed attempts at motorcycle jumps, diving in the shallow end, jumping out of a plane with a bad parachute... All stupid things that could've been prevented but at least none are intentional.

That is a rather broad interpretation of "suicide". It makes no allowance for intent, intelligence, environment, or even attempt to to prevent.

I never perpetuated any such myth. You and others have for me. You'd rather assume I'm intentionally agenda driven and aggravating instead of asking for clarity or reasonable follow up questions.

Correct. You inspire absolutely no follow-up questions or discussion. Your comments were purely seen as antagonistic. By multiple people.

You should think about that.

And there you go making fun of somebody who has actually gone through some things. How do you not see your hypocrisy there?

Simple. I not making fun of him. I am outright mocking him. You can even detect an edge of cynical anger.

There's nothing hypocritical there. I am outright and clear the entire time as to what my position is. I don't wait for anyone to ask or assume what my intent it, and I don't complain if someone doesn't understand it.

None of those things are choices.

Correct.

Guess what: Neither is depression.

You either can swim or you can't.

Or you can swim until you can't anymore.

You can either walk or you can't.

Or you can limp along until it is just to painful to continue limping.

You either live till or past 80 or you can't.

And whether you do or not is not a matter of you being selfish.

You either cut your wrists or you don't. There's a big difference between can't and don't. Regardless of the psychology behind depression, one isn't a choice, the other is.

Take away the psychology, and all you have left is a person equating cutting their wrists with a mistimed motorcycle jump.

Further, assisted suicide due to terminal illness isn't quite the same as tying a belt around your neck in the middle of the night and checking out without warning. I'm not quite sure about the 'assisted' kind but that's really a whole other subject matter.

That's because you have only a very foggy notion of the difference between a terminal illness and sever depression. Honestly, it isn't too far from the actual subject being argued by most people here, which is pretty much the public conception of what severe depression is.

According to what I'm reading from you and others I ask, should clinically depressed people have a right to die? Should they have a right to have a medical professional pull their plug?

Now that is an entirely different subject, and not one that I believe anyone has really bothered with. After all, most people here are simply asking for acknowledgement that severe depression is not the same as "it's all in your mind". Being, however, that you have pretty much outright stated that psychological reasons for an illness are somehow less influential than physical reasons for an illness (it's like you think of psychology as nothing more than a guy on a couch talking to a guy on a chair), I don't see a point in pursuing that line of discussion. Not when the foundational concept behind it is so radically different.

I don't think depression and cancer are one in the same, though one could cause the other, but with all these 'analogies' it looks like many of you feel they belong in the same argument.

That's because you don't think of severe depression as a physical illness. Curiously, you seem okay with the idea that the human mind is an incredible ally in the fight against choosing to die when it comes to things like cancer, however when it comes to something like depression, you are rather dismissive of the very thing that removes the ability of the human mind to fight against choosing to die.

Since you seem to be stuck in physical mode, try thinking of it like this: Depression is like AIDS. It isn't a virus in and of itself. It is a syndrome. It is a disorder that involves several different symptoms. The actual cause of AIDS is usually (but not always) associated with HIV. The effect of AIDS is that it turns a healthy person into one who is extremely vulnerable to many life-threatening conditions (most commonly pneumonia and sarcomas), and things that would normally be shrugged off by the immune system suddenly become lethal when the immune system is compromised.

As an analogy, depression isn't the virus, but the syndrome. It is caused by external factors (in this case, HIV), be it neural chemistry (in the case of depression) or emotional confusion (in the case of the angsty teenager). It doesn't kill you outright, but it weakens you so much that you are highly vulnerable to other external threats, things that a person with a properly working neurology would be able to shrug off (or, at least, work their way through).

You don't want to kill yourself, not really, no more than you want to get carinii pneumonia. You just sometimes simply don't have what it takes to fight it.

Edited by aquatus1
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XenoFish

I'm sorry you feel the way you do Aquatus. I feel that your one of those who seem to distrust/dislike anything that doesn't fit your point of view. Take me as you wish, I simply wanted to offer hope. If you do not like me or my view that is your choice. A choice you seem to have already have made. Sometimes you have to go through hell before you can get to heaven. But that is a choice you and only you must make.

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F3SS

No apologies here. Thank you for the lecture, my behavioral analysis and more analogies. I never meant to offend. I'd rather you guys use this as an outlet to share your experiences as I think talking about them is healthy for you.

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aquatus1
I'm sorry you feel the way you do Aquatus.

I'm sure you do. It is a natural consequence of creating your argument. In fact, I am fairly certain it is what motivated your argument to begin with.

I feel that your one of those who seem to distrust/dislike anything that doesn't fit your point of view.

My level of dislike is irrelevant, as not a single one of my posts is based on personal preference. My level of distrust correlates to the credibility of the claim. I pointed out the flaws in your post the page before, and instead of addressing them, you simply repeated your point in a different manner. I pointed out the faults in yours above, and again you did not address them, you simply chose to claim that there was a problem with me.

You set yourself up as the authority by assuming the role of the wise old sage doling out advice, but when all is said and done, you have really done nothing more than create a non-falsifiable argument using rule-of-thumb motivational better suited for office and school posters than a group discussion on clinical depression. You have made the assumption that people with severe depression simply lack willpower. You have made the assumption that willpower is simply something that can be summoned up by choice. From these two assumptions (their accuracy already in question), you conclude that people who are depressed choose to summon the willpower to commit suicide, instead of choosing to summon the willpower to continue living.

And a very convenient set of assumptions they are too. The advantage to stating your argument in that manner is that no matter what anyone says to you, you have an out. Don't agree that you can summon up willpower? You must be the kind that doesn't believe you can summon up willpower. Don't agree with my assumptions? Well, you likely don't understand them so I will explain them to you again. Don't like what I say? You must be the sort who distrust/dislikes things they don't agree with.

Take me as you wish, I simply wanted to offer hope. If you do not like me or my view that is your choice. A choice you seem to have already have made. Sometimes you have to go through hell before you can get to heaven. But that is a choice you and only you must make.

A volunteer going to some country to help deliver food to starving locals is going to receive a cold welcome if they arrive and start lecturing them on why they are starving. They will receive an even colder one if they pretend they know what it is to be starving. To go from there to actively telling people you feel sorry for how they feel, or worse, to start taking on some spiritual wannabe role where you are there to inspire hope, where you martyr yourself when disagreed with, and any implied issued with you is nothing more than a personal issue of having chosen hell instead heaven (gee, ain't you grand?); A person like that would likely be sent back by the volunteer team, as that sort of self-righteous attitude is going to cause nothing but trouble with the locals, and would be seriously aggravating to the team.

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aquatus1

No apologies here. Thank you for the lecture, my behavioral analysis and more analogies. I never meant to offend. I'd rather you guys use this as an outlet to share your experiences as I think talking about them is healthy for you.

We share with each other on a fairly regular basis. None of this is a surprise to us. Don't feel like you are bestowing some particular wisdom or favor.

You guys are the newbies in this discussion, not us. We've been living it our entire lives.

Edited by aquatus1
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Stubbly_Dooright

I am reminded of something that I suffer from. In which, no matter what, I cannot control it by sheer will along. Along with varying degrees of depression I will suffer from, this happens too. A lot of the posters on here, have read them, have suffered more so than me. I hurt for you, and I even learn from your wisdom and your experience. Another thing I suffer from, that my doctor has diagnosed, is anxiety. And it always p***es me off when someone yells to stop worrying. Seriously, I can't, and that is making it worse. But the biggest 'attacks' so to speak, occurs when a life altering situation happens. I start thinking of it and then next thing you, I get so anxious, depressed, hateful of everything, I feel paralyzed. I can't even eat. No matter how I push physically, I can't swallow the food. And it would last for weeks. I get to the point now, to keep my mind occupied during such situations, but that's a lot of work. And even then, I don't feel right. The first time, I was shocked. It was more me feeling like a simple panicking situation, I was physically unable to control it. It was downright scaring me to hell. Yes, I had no control over it. Really, our bodies are so much more complicated, then I think a lot of people think.

I would of thought that this thread was started in the hope of understanding depression and the control it has. But I do feel, that yes, this thread has allowed a lot of people to at least, have some part of healing or some good from it. A lot of you, are my heroes, you know. :nw:

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Vanishing Hitchhiker

I can give it to you as a "person' or a "clinical psychologist that has treated patients with "self harm" issues. Which one do you want and yes, I am retired from providing "psychotherapy treatment" after 30+ yrs. but I still think I have some 'insight" into the issue.

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F3SS

We share with each other on a fairly regular basis. None of this is a surprise to us. Don't feel like you are bestowing some particular wisdom or favor.

You're a last word kind of guy, aren't you? And the last sentence there, I don't recall seeing that when you posted this last night. Did you come back a half hour later and edit that in just to be extra smart? Honestly man, I'm far more humble than that. The thread became something I didn't expect and that's well and good. I haven't sought credit or asked for recognition. I'm not the self centered prick who can't see past his own nose that you keep making me out to be. You're right that this isn't about me. It never was. Last, you and some others might share these stories a lot but it certainly appears there are a lot of first time story tellers opening up here so how about you recognize them, share your unchallenged wisdom and quit find new clever ways to tell me off. I'm happy to start over if you are.

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OverSword

I would like to throw this out there.

If a person commits suicide, and it's considered selfish because of the pain some others might feel.

Isn't it selfish of the others to want the individual to keep suffering, just so they won't have to be sad/angry?

Ask someone who's been to that point and didn't do it or didn't successfully die a few years after the fact and I think you'll have your answer. They are glad they didn't. Death is final. While alive there is a possibility of making your life worth living. Once you're dead it's too late. Your common question about suicide shows that you actually have never given it much real thought. Keep it that way. The only legit reason for ending it all is if you have a terminal debilitating disease which is reaching it's final stage and soon you won't have the ability to do it yourself. To kill yourself because you feel like you can't be happy is just mental illness which can be overcome many different ways for the vast majority of people.

edit to add: I've heard an anecdote that people who have survived suicide by jumping from the Brooklyn and Golden Gate bridges, halfway down they regret the attempt and wish they could go back 10 seconds and stop themselves. Don't know if that's true but I've heard it the story multiple times.

Edited by OverSword

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aquatus1
And the last sentence there, I don't recall seeing that when you posted this last night. Did you come back a half hour later and edit that in just to be extra smart?

No, it was more of a concern that you wouldn't understand what was being said.

Honestly man, I'm far more humble than that.

Your self-proclaimed humility suits you.

The thread became something I didn't expect and that's well and good. I haven't sought credit or asked for recognition. I'm not the self centered prick who can't see past his own nose that you keep making me out to be. You're right that this isn't about me. It never was. Last, you and some others might share these stories a lot but it certainly appears there are a lot of first time story tellers opening up here so how about you recognize them, share your unchallenged wisdom and quit find new clever ways to tell me off. I'm happy to start over if you are.

I'll go ahead and let people compare that last statement to the ones directly proceeding it, and let them judge the sincerity of it.

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OverSword

I can give it to you as a "person' or a "clinical psychologist that has treated patients with "self harm" issues. Which one do you want and yes, I am retired from providing "psychotherapy treatment" after 30+ yrs. but I still think I have some 'insight" into the issue.

I would be interested to get some insight from a professional here. So what's your take on suicide either as a person or a retired professional? Some here seem to think suicide is OK and unselfish if you feel enough despair, some here feel that these people need to suck it up and get some help before they do something they can longer regret. Where do you fall or do you have some new and unmentioned perspective than has been shown on this thread? And welcome to UM.
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F3SS

It was sincere. I don't know what else to tell you and I understood it well before the edit.

Edited by F3SS

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OverSword

Just had a thought. I wonder how many psychiatrists have ever encountered a patient and the diagnosis ended with "all those selfish people who can't understand your suffering are idiots, you should end you pain and kill yourself".

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aquatus1

I would be interested to get some insight from a professional here. So what's your take on suicide either as a person or a retired professional? Some here seem to think suicide is OK and unselfish if you feel enough despair, some here feel that these people need to suck it up and get some help before they do something they can longer regret. Where do you fall or do you have some new and unmentioned perspective than has been shown on this thread? And welcome to UM.

And let's not forget those who believe suicide is not OK, not selfish, and the people suffering from it need to get help.

Welcome aboard, Vanishing Hitchhiker. Enjoy your stay and feel free to contact the mods if you have any questions.

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some new guy

I never really liked the idea of calling depression a mental illness - the word illness implies something that can be caught or developed over time, like the flu or cancer or something - it also implies that it can be "cured" - its more of a birth defect, something that you are born with and it stays with you forever - sure there is medication that can make it seem better (manageable) but there is no "cure" for depression, its eternal

BEST - Ron

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Paranoid Android

I would be interested to get some insight from a professional here. So what's your take on suicide either as a person or a retired professional? Some here seem to think suicide is OK and unselfish if you feel enough despair, some here feel that these people need to suck it up and get some help before they do something they can longer regret. Where do you fall or do you have some new and unmentioned perspective than has been shown on this thread? And welcome to UM.

I think very few people are actually saying suicide is "ok". Rather that some people reach such a level of despair that in their own minds they see no other option, and therefore is an act of desperation and not selfishness. Noting that depression exists and can lead to suicide is not the same as advocating suicide as ok.
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Paranoid Android

Just had a thought. I wonder how many psychiatrists have ever encountered a patient and the diagnosis ended with "all those selfish people who can't understand your suffering are idiots, you should end you pain and kill yourself".

That would be the Gene Simmons school of psychiatry, would it?

http://m.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/kiss-banned-radio-station-gene-simmons-suggests-depressed-kill-article-1.1905670

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