Opus Magnus Posted August 20, 2014 #1 Share Posted August 20, 2014 (edited) Marcus Aurelius told me about iconoclasm in a PM and I thought it was interesting. It's about graven imagery being displayed in religion and is a debate whether it is right or not. http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Iconoclasm Personally I know that it is wrong and is a sin. It is against the second commandment, and in Deuteronomy 4:16 where it expands on it. When I first read Deuteronomy where it talks about more sins in graven imagery like the depiction of male and female not to be used, and all beasts of the field I went into a frenzy. There were so many images of these things all over my food and on so many items. I got rid of all my food with the graven imagery and took note. I also wondered in church because they had the graven imagery on the stained glass and other things. A catholic church I went to had a huge image of the Sun and I knew it was against the second commandment. I tried to reason that it must be ordered by God, so as not to judge, like when God ordered the construction of Cherubims on the Ark of the Covenant; which would otherwise been against the second commandment, but God ordered it so it was ok. I didn't know and figured if these men who constructed these graven images weren't commanded to by God, then they must all be in sin. The only churches I have gone to that don't have these graven images are Lutheran, and that is the church I am currently attending. So, I didn't know about the iconoclasm revolution until he told me and found it a bit blissful. I guess there were martyrs for it too. Edited August 20, 2014 by Opus Magnus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Aurelius Posted August 20, 2014 #2 Share Posted August 20, 2014 (edited) Well, as noted in our previous conversation I SUPPORT the use of Icons in the church, and indeed I actually COLLECT icons. I have several of them hanging on the walls of my study, creating what is almost a private sanctuary...and when I set down to work, they calm me and help me to remember the purpose of my work...glorifying our Lord Jesus Christ. As one of the great saints during the Iconoclast controversy noted, the invisible God has been made VISIBLE in Jesus Christ, therefore we CAN depict Him in imagery. And did you know my friend, that one of the main reasons WHY icons were originally used was because of the fact that so much of the population was illiterate, the Icons themselves could communicate the Gospel message! That is what they were originally used for, to tell the story of Jesus Christ in pictures!! For me, Icons will always have a place in church, in fact I wish there was more imagery in churches like that today; especially Protestant ones. Remember that a church should be a Sacred Space, a place where heaven and earth meet...and yet today so many churches are so barren looking. It looks like you're stepping into a conference room or a concert hall rather than a SANCTUARY. They don't do anything to evoke a feeling of God's presence, at least for me. But to each their own... Edited August 20, 2014 by Marcus Aurelius 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiXilver Posted August 20, 2014 #3 Share Posted August 20, 2014 The only potential setback I've experienced with any 'graven image' or symbol is mistaking the map for the terrain. The menu is not the meal. This word 'water' will convey meaning, but it's not real and will not slake thirst. Don't be distracted by the finger pointing to the moon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellig heilige Posted August 20, 2014 #4 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Personally I know that it is wrong and is a sin. It is against the second commandment, and in Deuteronomy 4:16 where it expands on it. God didn't personally tell you its a sin. You read it. How factual is that????????????????????????????????????????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opus Magnus Posted August 20, 2014 Author #5 Share Posted August 20, 2014 God didn't personally tell you its a sin. You read it. How factual is that????????????????????????????????????????????????? Thank you euroninja. I did talk to God about it and he said if I hold these images in my heart it would block my way to heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Aurelius Posted August 20, 2014 #6 Share Posted August 20, 2014 God didn't personally tell you its a sin. You read it. How factual is that????????????????????????????????????????????????? Well, Euroninja, with all due respect to Opus Magnus' position: that is how he interprets the text; and indeed A LOT of Christians interpret the text that way, including the great reformation theologian John Calvin; so his argument is both warranted AND justifiable. And while I disagree with his position, I respect it as such. I also appreciate him raising the debate. It's an interesting conversation. For me the underlying question is what constitutes an idol? For me idolatry begins in the heart; thus, a "graven image" CAN be a bi-product of that, as we see in the case of the ancient Israelites building a golden calf. But as I have tried to demonstrate, this is not what a Christian icon is intended to do. It's intended to be a kind of instruction unto itself or a visual aid to help bring us to a spirit of worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellig heilige Posted August 20, 2014 #7 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Dreamin'. Dreaming is free. Dreamin'. Dreaming is free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Darko Posted August 20, 2014 #8 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I have that word "Iconoclast" tattooed on me I was being a rebel at the time, so it doesn't necessarily represent what it says...simply spontaneity and foolishness. On a more serious note. I don't think that the graven image thing is a terrible sin worthy of damnation unless you actually worship those images. Just my own personal feedback on that one, but I respect all views. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiXilver Posted August 20, 2014 #9 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I have that word "Iconoclast" tattooed on me I was being a rebel at the time, so it doesn't necessarily represent what it says...simply spontaneity and foolishness. On a more serious note. I don't think that the graven image thing is a terrible sin worthy of damnation unless you actually worship those images. Just my own personal feedback on that one, but I respect all views. well said. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perceptivum Posted August 20, 2014 #10 Share Posted August 20, 2014 (edited) I believe what God is trying to convey in Deuteronomy 4, starting at verse 15, is that we should not anthropomorphize God. Paraphrasing, God simply instructs us that since we do not understand what God looks like, we should not try and create an image of God because whatever we create will be an insult. In the literal end, it doesn't matter what we were thinking; all that matters is what God thinks. So, be careful when you begin to say: “I don’t think…is a terrible sin” because God may, and ultimately probably does, THINK it’s a terrible sin. Remember, in Isaiah 64:6 “And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment”; meaning even on our most perfect day (e.g., feed the hungry from morning ‘til night and on the way home clothed the naked) we still came up short. This is why John 3:16 is necessary. Edited August 20, 2014 by Perceptivum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrooma Posted August 20, 2014 #11 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Marcus Aurelius told me about iconoclasm in a PM . you can PM dead Italians?! could you ask Leonardo DaVinci why he allowed his name to be used as the basis for a crap book....? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrooma Posted August 20, 2014 #12 Share Posted August 20, 2014 When I first read Deuteronomy where it talks about sins in graven imagery like the depiction of male and female not to be used, and all beasts of the field I went into a frenzy. There were so many images of these things all over my food and on so many items. I got rid of all my food with the graven imagery and took note. . seriously?! . do you not think you're being a tad over-reactive...? apart from being a psychiatrist's wet dream, i'm genuinely surprised you haven't starved to death. try. to. relax. . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellig heilige Posted August 20, 2014 #13 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I believe what God is trying to convey in Deuteronomy 4, starting at verse 15, is that we should not anthropomorphize God. Paraphrasing, I believe, I believe, I believe we should not try to give god credit for the things he did not pen with his own hands................................................................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted August 20, 2014 #14 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I believe, I believe, I believe we should not try to give god credit for the things he did not pen with his own hands................................................................. Pray tell what did he pen with his own hands. I would think that would knock out the whole Bible as I don't think God put any thing to pen with his own hands. Jesus didn't write anything down, which seems to cause most of the problems and contradictions. The whole Bible is basically a mishmash of hearsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Star Posted August 20, 2014 #15 Share Posted August 20, 2014 The ten commandments strictly apply to Judaism. Judaism doesn't permit an image of their God because their God is beyond any form comprehendible by humans. An important thing to realize is that Deuteronomy 4:15-19 didn't prevent the Ark of the Covenant from displaying two angels by divine command, and when Solomon built the temple he added even more images to the Most Holy Place. In Christianity those who saw Christ also saw God the Father, so Christ as God and as a human being naturally leads to all the icons and other images found in the Christian religion. Even though there is a relaxation of the second commandment, Christianity has a somewhat higher moral code - for example, Christians are not permitted to lie, but there is no commandment against it for Jews unless they are swearing to the truth in a legal proceeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellig heilige Posted August 20, 2014 #16 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Pray tell what did he pen with his own hands. I would think that would knock out the whole Bible as I don't think God put any thing to pen with his own hands. Jesus didn't write anything down, which seems to cause most of the problems and contradictions. Except for the controversial 10 commandments, you have every right to say "which seems to cause most of the problems and contradictions".............................................................................................................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted August 21, 2014 #17 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Christians are not permitted to lie, but there is no commandment against it for Jews unless they are swearing to the truth in a legal proceeding. "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" How do you figure that, here it is. This isn't talking about court it is about lying about other people. Christians don't have a higher moral code than Jews, that was just propaganda spread by Nazis. After all Jesus wasn't a Christian, he was a Jew, would you say he has a lower moral standard. I think you just insulted the man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted August 21, 2014 #18 Share Posted August 21, 2014 To me, one does not need any image of god. Personally, such images, symbols or idols, would get in the road of an open and honest relationship with god. It is one's personal connection to, and relationship with, god which shapes and forms the image of god in ones heart and mind, and it cannot work the other way around. One must know god and find/carry, god "himself" in one's heart and mind, not any image or representation of god. Otherwise you establish a false understanding of god, "his" nature, and "his" relationship to us as individuals. Only god and the power of god in a person can work effectively This power cannot be transferred to, or operate through, ANY image idol or statue etc. and it doesn't have to because it operates via god within each of us. Praying /talking to any image idol etc., will have no effect at all, but communicating with god "itself", brings direct results, including healing, and transforming/empowering individuals. This is due to the nature of god and also to the nature of the connection between god and every human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted August 21, 2014 #19 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Pray tell what did he pen with his own hands. I would think that would knock out the whole Bible as I don't think God put any thing to pen with his own hands. Jesus didn't write anything down, which seems to cause most of the problems and contradictions. The whole Bible is basically a mishmash of hearsay. Mene. mene, tekel upharsin ? Literally written by the finger on the hand of god? Edited August 21, 2014 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted August 21, 2014 #20 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Mene. mene, tekel upharsin ? Literally written by the finger on the hand of god? Why do you think it is a true story? There are a million stories of ancient times about all kind of things people thought were at one time true, but are now thought to be myth. Why would this tale be anymore true than they are. Here are bunch, take your pick. http://sacred-texts.com/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perceptivum Posted August 21, 2014 #21 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) I believe, I believe, I believe we should not try to give god credit for the things he did not pen with his own hands................................................................. Are you kidding me? Let’s start with 2 Timothy 3:16 to lay the foundation: “All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.” Scripture is the sacred writings of Christianity contained in the Bible. Therefore, all of the Bible was from God. This means that although a human being physically wrote Deuteronomy (as well as the rest of the Bible), the words were from God. Therefore, I will, always and forever, give credit to God for all things contained in the Bible. As you SHOULD too. Edited August 21, 2014 by Perceptivum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opus Magnus Posted August 21, 2014 Author #22 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Yea. Moses spent time with God on the mountain and made what God commanded him to make. Christ said the only way to the father is through him so to speak with God you would have to know him then talk to God to see what he thinks about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellig heilige Posted August 21, 2014 #23 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Are you kidding me? Let’s start with 2 Timothy 3:16 to lay the foundation: “All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.” Scripture is the sacred writings of Christianity contained in the Bible. Therefore, all of the Bible was from God. This means that although a human being physically wrote Deuteronomy (as well as the rest of the Bible), the words were from God. Therefore, I will, always and forever, give credit to God for all things contained in the Bible. As you SHOULD too. Edited August 21, 2014 by euroninja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted August 22, 2014 #24 Share Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) Why do you think it is a true story? There are a million stories of ancient times about all kind of things people thought were at one time true, but are now thought to be myth. Why would this tale be anymore true than they are. Here are bunch, take your pick. http://sacred-texts.com/index.htm I was answering a specific question about whether god had ever physically/literally written any of the words in the bible. (and I included a question mark.) Well yes, in the context of the story, those words were physically written in fire on a wall, by god ie penned literally, by his own hand/finger.. Whether people believe anything is up to them. Belief is a chosen state of mind which has no connection to knowledge or facts. Edited August 22, 2014 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perceptivum Posted August 22, 2014 #25 Share Posted August 22, 2014 [media=] [/media] I want to thank you for the video link, I watched and enjoyed it very much. However, it had nothing to do with our topic. Also, I can give you the answer to all questions, and that answer is "Jesus". When you break every question down to it's fundamental core, the answer is always "Jesus". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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