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Discussing Religion


Grandpa Greenman

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A good approach is to not criticise a belief, which everyone is entitled to after all, but analysis the consequences of those beliefs. If those consequences are negative then attack those negative outcomes and point out how the belief causes those outcomes.

All beliefs have outcomes and none of those outcomes are neutral as such and it is this which is worth analysing. Unfortunately, in most instances this inevitably means rejecting the beliefs which are intrinsic to the faith which have caused the negative outcomes.

As such I would attack any religion which has no respect for another's beliefs and unfortunately much of Christianity and Islam fall squarely into that category. The belief that there is only one path is the ultimate unforgivable sin committed by many of faith.

Br Cornelius

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The problem seems to be that belief is filtered through personality. Thus, people with benevolent personalities produce benevolent results and people with evil personalities produce evil results. Unfortunately, some belief systems attract more of one kind than the other. The bad behavior associated with some churches comes from their collective personalities.

Doug

Edited by Doug1029
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A good approach is to not criticise a belief, which everyone is entitled to after all, but analysis the consequences of those beliefs. If those consequences are negative then attack those negative outcomes and point out how the belief causes those outcomes.

All beliefs have outcomes and none of those outcomes are neutral as such and it is this which is worth analysing. Unfortunately, in most instances this inevitably means rejecting the beliefs which are intrinsic to the faith which have caused the negative outcomes.

As such I would attack any religion which has no respect for another's beliefs and unfortunately much of Christianity and Islam fall squarely into that category. The belief that there is only one path is the ultimate unforgivable sin committed by many of faith.

Br Cornelius

That's what it says in the gospel. That you tell if a tree is good or bad by its fruits. Every corrupt tree must be uprooted and cast into the fire.

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That's what it says in the gospel. That you tell if a tree is good or bad by its fruits. Every corrupt tree must be uprooted and cast into the fire.

I tell by its lumber.

The tree that never had to fight

For earth and air and sky and light

That stood out on the open plain

And always got its share of rain

Never became a forest king

But lived and died a scrubby thing.

The man who never had to work to win his share

Of earth and light and sky and air

Never became a manly man

But lived and died as he began.

Good timber does not grow at ease.

The farther sky, the taller trees.

The greater height, the greater length;

The more the storm, the more the strength.

BY sun and storm, by rain and snow

In tree or man

Good timber grows.

--Anonymous

Edited by Doug1029
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That's what it says in the gospel. That you tell if a tree is good or bad by its fruits. Every corrupt tree must be uprooted and cast into the fire.

We are up rooting trees by the billions everyday and destroying whole forests. The fruit you think is bad may come from the tree that is keep you alive. How are you to judge what is corrupt and should be cast forever into the fire. Some say marijuana is corrupt, some say homosexuals are corrupt, some say people atheist are corrupt, the world is not so black and white. It is these is kind of absolutes that come out of scriptures which makes me say, wait, are you really sure that is good advice. Maybe what is really corrupt is the book telling me what is corrupt. Just cause you been doing something for 2000 years doesn't always make it a good thing.

Edited by GreenmansGod
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Then the whole of humanity needs to be uprooted and cast asunder. Because we're all bad fruit in our own way. No matter how righteous we thing we might be.

Edited by XenoFish
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A good principle to work by is. "Don't criticise other peoples' beliefs unless you have subjected your own to rigorous cross examination. " Even then only criticise the parts of a belief which, if acted upon, would cause harm to self or others.

One difficulty with debating beliefs (including religious beliefs) is that they are so closely connected to our sense of self and identity. What we believe (across a whole range of topics) defines who, and what, we are as human beings Thus, to criticise another's belief is a highly personal attack on the very core of that person's being. (Or at least is seen, felt and perceived to be so, even when this was not the intention)

Very true that one's beliefs are highly personal and define who and what we see ourselves as. Belief is like a possession. If I say your car is not a good car, for instance, you may feel insulted, when I'm really only insulting your car. But, you chose that car, so you feel I'm insulting your discretion.

This circumstance is a problem we all should think about. Your possessions are not you, and it's difficult to separate the two. One's belief is more difficult to separate from one's identity, and that's a big problem for us. People go crazy when their religious beliefs are questioned.

Is it possible when discussing religion to remain reasonable, rational and objective? Who are you? Are you your beliefs and opinions, or are your beliefs and opinions a psychological defense mechanism and a security blanket?

If all your beliefs and opinions were taken away, who would you be?

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If all your beliefs and opinions were taken away, who would you be?

Living in Saudi Arabia.

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The fruit you think is bad may come from the tree that is keep you alive.

There are very few perfect trees in the world. If we are comparing ourselves to trees, let's remember that.

There was one - actually named "Perfect Tree" in Boulder Canyon a few miles east of Nederland, Colorado. It was marked on maps and was a tourist attraction back in the 1880s and 90s. It was a silver spruce, a variety of the Colorado blue spruce. It succumbed to a spruce budworm attack in the early 1980s, but the dead tree was preserved by the landowner who wanted to preserve the memory of this once-magnificent specimen. In the 1990s, somebody sneaked into the property, cut it down and hauled it away as firewood. Let's hope our "perfect specimens" meet a better end.

Doug

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If all your beliefs and opinions were taken away, who would you be?

Who I am right now. Belief is a tool. It's all in how you use it. Opinions are just solidified beliefs. Whatever you believe is true, at least to you.

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Very true that one's beliefs are highly personal and define who and what we see ourselves as. Belief is like a possession. If I say your car is not a good car, for instance, you may feel insulted, when I'm really only insulting your car. But, you chose that car, so you feel I'm insulting your discretion.

This circumstance is a problem we all should think about. Your possessions are not you, and it's difficult to separate the two. One's belief is more difficult to separate from one's identity, and that's a big problem for us. People go crazy when their religious beliefs are questioned.

Is it possible when discussing religion to remain reasonable, rational and objective? Who are you? Are you your beliefs and opinions, or are your beliefs and opinions a psychological defense mechanism and a security blanket?

If all your beliefs and opinions were taken away, who would you be?

This is helped by education knowledge and understanding/

I understand my mind and the construction/formation of my beliefs (not really beliefs but values based on logic and reason.)

If you know yourself, and understand how you have constructed your beliefs from birth, then the beliefs of another are not threatening. You see that person constructing their beliefs just as you did and understand that everyone of us is shaped by individual circumstance . But more than that the human mind can rise above circumstance and make choices, (including choices about belief) quite objectively, clearly and logically, once they understand the process by which beliefs are constructed. Beliefs are formed in the same way we come to logical conclusions. If all my beliefs were taken away (eg via total memory loss) I would be a clean slate, and I would have to start from scratch.

Of course while I can accept any belief, I cannot accept the consequences of many personal beliefs if they are acted upon. Eg some people believe it is ethical to steal from me. I disagree, even though I understand how they come to that conclusion .

Your beliefs cannot be take away from you, as long as you retain two things. First, your memory of the past, and second the power of logical thinking and other forms of human thought such as emotional and intuitive. These two things influence the formation of beliefs in our minds and as long as we have them we will have some beliefs

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We are up rooting trees by the billions everyday and destroying whole forests. The fruit you think is bad may come from the tree that is keep you alive. How are you to judge what is corrupt and should be cast forever into the fire. Some say marijuana is corrupt, some say homosexuals are corrupt, some say people atheist are corrupt, the world is not so black and white. It is these is kind of absolutes that come out of scriptures which makes me say, wait, are you really sure that is good advice. Maybe what is really corrupt is the book telling me what is corrupt. Just cause you been doing something for 2000 years doesn't always make it a good thing.

You measure and evaluate objectively, using knowledge and reason. That is all, and the best, we can do. As our knowledge improves the results become better.

The proverb is not about the conservation of all trees but about husbandry and the role of the gardener or forester in a garden or forest. Diseased trees are removed to stop the disease spreading. Non fruitful trees are replaced with fruiting ones. Those with faulty or useless lumber are replaced with ones with better lumber

BUT al trees(and all people) serve a greater purpose and have intrinsic value. And we can't directly compare a tree and a person, although some comparisons are valid. What we can do with individual people (for example suffering from a disease) is to care for them but also enable them to produce the best fruit or lumber of which they are capable,.and then value them for the shade, beauty, or life giving qualities they have, just as we can do for all trees.

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This is helped by education knowledge and understanding/

If all my beliefs were taken away (eg via total memory loss) I would be a clean slate, and I would have to start from scratch.

.

Your beliefs cannot be take away from you, as long as you retain two things. First, your memory of the past, and second the power of logical thinking and other forms of human thought such as emotional and intuitive. .

Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to be contradicting yourself here,If you have a total memory loss how can you retain your memory of the past

fullywired

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Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to be contradicting yourself here,If you have a total memory loss how can you retain your memory of the past

fullywired

No that's what I was saying. If I had a total memory loss my mind would be a clean slate. I would have to learn to think and speak again as well as walk etc. Thus I would formulate new world views opinions and beliefs perhaps quite different to my original ones depending on the experiences I accumulated in my new life. So your beliefs can only be taken away from you by total memory loss, after which you will develop new beliefs.
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Every year I adopt a spiritual practice for the year. One year it was to not believe or to question anything that I did not know through my own experience to be true, in other words, not to take someone's word for it. That was three years ago, and I'm still discovering beliefs that have been embedded in me for so long that I'm just now identifying them. Who would we be without our beliefs? For some of us, more authentically ourselves. And for some of us, wiser, as we fill the empty spaces left by departed beliefs with ideas about what's true for us. And ironically, dumping most of my spiritual beliefs has led to stronger faith in the sacred, since my faith is now based on what I know and first-hand experience instead of something read out of a book or a recount of someone's else's experiences.

Edited by Beany
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My religious beliefs were shattered as a kid as i watched my pastor beat my 2 year old brother with a branch he broke off our apple tree in our front yard. I was suppose to bring my brother inside for dinner with me as our mom just called us in. My brother didn't want to go and had a temper tantrum. The pastor who lived across the rd was outside and herd and came running over cause he needed to " beat the devil" from my brother who was suddenly possessed and he was all the while yelling " in the name of god i banish you" . My mother did run out and have to fight him off,my brother went to hospital, police came and pastor was charged and ordered not be be alone with kids under 18 including his own 4 kids. but yet people still went to him for service after all this and for years. he is still currently a pastor teaching " gods words". As i had to watch my brother in pain for several weeks as he had deep welts from his neck to his feet all down his backside.

i still have issues with the whole thing and i am an adult. i went to catholic school for a bit as a kid... and my parents went to several churches after that incident. i just could never feel like i fit in with any church we went to. i would talk the words sing the hymns and never could feel anything while doing it other then a waste of time.

my husband and i don't believe in anything, however my in laws are christian and have more less brought our kids up this way.. they go to church every sunday and are active within the church. as much as i disagree with things.. my kids feel a connection and i think its just cause they don't see how corrupt things are with all religions. i do think church is a great gathering place and social networking... but its all the praising god for everything they do i have issues with. what we have tried to instill in our kids that regardless of what they are taught religious wise you don't have to be religious to do good things. that food drive or other charity you donated to to help make a difference to someone... that is you being a good person.. nothing to do with god. volunteering? again its all you and your good nature to do good things... so sick of hearing " well i prayed for god to show me what to do and he answered " as to why people do stuff. and i think the biggest thing is that regardless what other believe or who they like... they are still people and people first who deserve respect. You can be good and just without needing religion to lean on or use for a reason to do good things

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