Girl, 9, kills shooting instructor

[+OverSword]

i have seen kids that look no more than 10 drive pick ups on their farm, and working on their farms, some can drive like pros at 10, some can't drive regardless of the age.

Heck, there are race car drivers under the age of 16, and I know darn well some of them are from Europe, the one making these comments from Germany is sheltered.

[toast]

You probably just referred to half the Americans on UM as idiots .

So 50% of all 9yo girls in the US get trained in the use of firearms? I don`t think so.

In the USA you can drive on private property without a license so you answer would again be the USA. Is that really

so shocking?

Same scenario where I live but again, the initial argument is just of rhetoric nature so it is useless.

[aztek]

So 50% of all 9yo girls in the US get trained in the use of firearms? I don`t think so.

well if you include 9 years old boys, (or anywhere from 9 to 13 years both genders) , than 50% is not such an unbeliveble number. also his refence was not about percent of kids, but percent of americans on this forum, that teach their kids (and where tought as kids) to use guns.

Edited August 27, 2014 by aztek

[toast]

It's not your business determining that now is it?

My question was a general one and not related to any country, maybe you didn`t noticed that.

And pls don`t tell me whats my business and whats not.

Does a 9-year-old NEED to know how to use a lawnmower? How about a chainsaw?

Nonsensical questions.

[toast]

well if you include 9 years old boys, (or anywhere from 9 to 13 years both genders) , than 50% is not such an unbeliveble number.

also his refence was not about percent of kids, but percent of americans on this forum, that teach their kids (and where tought as kids)

to use guns.

A little bending here, a little bending there and all of a sudden the statistic matches.

[Michelle]

So 50% of all 9yo girls in the US get trained in the use of firearms? I don`t think so.

.

Nope, my dad had a small collection of guns and he started teaching me when I was six. It is quite common of people of my age group. Of course, it is rumored my great-grandfather bought our family property from Native Americans before they were forced away in The Trail of Tears. He taught my grandfather to hunt and farm who in turn taught my dad, who was born in 1924 when much of the land was still unsettled. Being the prudent man he was, Dad taught his children how to use firearms for self defense and in case we ever needed to hunt for food in the future. We needed to have a great deal of respect for them because we were exposed to them.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Michelle

[aztek]

A little bending here, a little bending there and all of a sudden the statistic matches.

lol, yea pretty much, statistics can be anything you want it to be.

[Sweetpumper]

Sad accident.

[White Crane Feather]

I`m sorry but this is the stupid argument thats in use by all pro-gunners around the world.

And by the way, in what country kids at an age of 9y are allowed to drive cars? In Cal?

What's stupid about it? Cars are dangerous but they are tools that we use for various reasons, guns are dangerous but are tools we use for various reasons. Per capita cars kill and mame far more children than guns do. The reason guns are targeted is because they carry an emotional element not a logical one. When we start makeing laws because emotional idealologies not logical ones we are in serious trouble.

No the Dumass should not have had the child shoot an Uzi. A .22 to train on is just fine and legal. My oldest will be nine this year guess what he will be handling a weapon under careful supervision, but make no mistake we are in more danger driving to the range than we are training, hell we are in more danger having stairs in our house. Emotional rhetoric does not change the probabilities of accidents, and with guns it's much lower than the other dangers that surround us. Guns are a reality of our society my kids will dam well know how to deal with them reguardless of the emotional unintelligence of others.

[psyche101]

I was routinely shooting rabbits, squirrels, ducks, quail, and doves at those ages.

Hell, at ten years old I would spend the day plowing fields and bush hogging.

You and I grew up in a different world. Today there are a great many more people, and safety is everybodys issue. More people means more irresponsible people, and bad people. There were more wide open spaces, people didn't even think of things like terrrorism and child molester monsters, and the general mood was more relaxed. In the last 30 years I have seen major changes globally that I feel require us to evalute our standards as this globe exapands. I shot a gun at about 14 or 15 when my stepfather taught me to on a farm, I shot roos and pigs, when we left the farm I never saw a gun again. We got gun control after that, and the large majority of Australians are ecstatic about it. My step father would still have his guns out there though. I too spent many days as a teen ploghing fields and even everntually worked a combine harverster. But a real hard job is Watermelon picking. Those suckers are heavy, and throwing them over 3 meters high into a truck all day long is real hard work. I know how to set a scarifier to the right depth and all that but I would not want my kids working their little backsides off like I did for a lousy $20.00 a week. When I got it. And when I wanted to buy a 410, I was told no. I was furious, but not in hindsight. In hindsight I am grateful in many ways. That $20.00 ended up being invested in an album which eventually inspired me to pick up a guitar. And that portion of my life was awesome in every way. By the same token of "the good old days" my mother lost me in a major city one day when I was under ten. I was luckily smart enough to know where the bus stopped that we caught, and the shop it stopped at where we got off. I found my way home with my 7 year old sister in tow. We had been missing for at least 4 hours in a major city and nobody had even called the cops. I found my moher (freshly divorced) sitting at home freaking out if we were safe.

I do not feel because we had harder lives that we should force them upon our children. I think we should let kids be kids, and I make sure mine are. They have plenty of sports, schooling and family more than enough for them to have to worry about such a grave aspect of life just yet. After extensive discussion, and I still have yet to read a book by Jim Webb, but I see no positive aspect to gun culture, the bad far outweighs the good. This is exactly what shocks me, when most people I know, and most certainly myself see a headline like this, it would inspire us to remove deadly weapons form the general public, and in particular children, yet in the US, the choice of weapon is what is frowned upon. I simply cannot understand that at all. A .22 rifle will kill just as effecitvely as an Uzi in an accident. To me, allowing a child of that age to handle such a deadly weapon is a huge hole in logic. Since the gun ban, boys here no longer even have air rifles, and more kids are not missing an eye.

I reckon let kids be kids. Weapons are not a childs toy.

[Lilly]

...I reckon let kids be kids. Weapons are not a childs toy.

Wise words.

[skookum]

Reading this thread it makes you wonder what will be next, how about

Fisher Price, 'My first Machine Gun" suitable for ages 2+ (may contain small parts such as bullets). Train your tot to be a cold blooded defender of your home. Supervision is recommended by not required by law.

Edited August 27, 2014 by skookum

[+OverSword]

So 50% of all 9yo girls in the US get trained in the use of firearms? I don`t think so.

No, but probably close to40% to 50% of parents. in some states probably more like 80%. I couldn't name a friend of mine growing up who's father didn't take him to a range or hunting at least a few times before middle school.

[psyche101]

In the USA you can drive on private property without a license so you answer would again be the USA. Is that really so shocking?

To many who never lived rurally it would surely be a surprise. However, thats not the question. The question is, is it a good idea to let a 9 year old behind the wheel of a car? They cannot outside of a public property because that is where the family jurisdiction ends, but in a public situation you have to be responsible and sensible, not one person I know would object to not allowing a 9 year old drive down a city street. It would be dangerous, and people would probably die. Because "it happens" does not justify or qualify it.

Heck, I drove a 2 door Monaro down public roads when I was like 12. I lived rurally and we might see a police car once a year, we just lived way out west, and had no real need for regular police precense. It was illegal and I was not allowed to, and propoably lucky I did not kill myself. I would not consider because Iived in a looser time and took greater risks that it would be a good idea for my children to do the same, I feel that is our responsibility as parents, to better situations for each generation.

Heck, when I think back at some of things I did as a kid, I horrify myself. Honestly, looking back, I reckon I am lucky to be alive today at all. I swam shark infested rivers, I surfed massive waves, I trekked through snake infested lands and thought I was bullet proof, crawled into rock entrenaces to explore them, speared stingray, thrashed cars and hunted with guns. If I saw my son doing the insane **** I used to get into, I would probably have a heart attack. My lotto ticket was getting this far I think.

Edited August 27, 2014 by psyche101

[psyche101]

It's not your business determining that now is it? Does a 9-year-old NEED to know how to use a lawnmower? How about a chainsaw?

What 9 year old has a chainsaw or a mower? I would not let my 12 year old use my chainsaw, let alone own one, and he only uses the battery mower out the back yard which is simply good exercise. I use the ride on mower, and I have to say, I rather enjoy it. I have a stubby holder on my lawnmower you see.

Edited August 27, 2014 by psyche101

[psyche101]

Wise words.

My kids have the most active minds from being active children.

For instance

This morning my son said to my wife:

Vegitarians are wierd.

My wife replied - Oh? How so son?

He said - They hate the idea of eating meat, but they shape their food like sausages and bacon - what's up with that?

We both looked at each other and had to agree with him, yep, vegetarians are weird.........

Bless him When my kids stump me, I really like it.

[psyche101]

What's stupid about it? Cars are dangerous but they are tools that we use for various reasons, guns are dangerous but are tools we use for various reasons. Per capita cars kill and mame far more children than guns do. The reason guns are targeted is because they carry an emotional element not a logical one. When we start makeing laws because emotional idealologies not logical ones we are in serious trouble.

The entire argument is stupid. Guns are not tools, that is just lying to yourself, a gun is a gun is a gun. Changing the terminology is what most people do to soften a tough subject. It's been done before in a million different ways. Guns exist for one reason, to apply deadly force. A Vehicle exists to get children to shool, get to shops and feed yourself and get to work so you can have a roof over your head. todays wide cities with so many roles to fulfill demands that until we have transporters like Star Trek, we have no option but to use a vehicle. If you do not use a gun, you will not starve, it will not hamper your ability to pay your mortgage, and it wont stop your kids from recieving schooling. Not having a vehicle will impacrt on wevery single one of those aspects. We have been farming for thousands of years now, the actual need for a gun in this respect went out before they were invented. Just be honest, you think they are cool, and you like them. Don't BS us all with some regaling tale of hunter gathering, or required skills, does not cut the Mustard, fact is there is no good reason to place a gun in the hands of a child at all. It's a personal thing that you think is a good idea because you think guns are cool. I do not consider a vehicle a "tool" but "transport". I today's world, the dictionary is big enough to encompass both.

Guns are not targetted on an emotional aspect at all, that is a really silly thing to say. The risks are more than obvious, and very real as we can see in this headline. What is emotional is the attachment to them.

No the Dumass should not have had the child shoot an Uzi. A .22 to train on is just fine and legal. My oldest will be nine this year guess what he will be handling a weapon under careful supervision, but make no mistake we are in more danger driving to the range than we are training, hell we are in more danger having stairs in our house. Emotional rhetoric does not change the probabilities of accidents, and with guns it's much lower than the other dangers that surround us. Guns are a reality of our society my kids will dam well know how to deal with them reguardless of the emotional unintelligence of others.

You know, I bet this little girls father may well have had the very same thought as they embarked on their family day out.

It will never happen "to you" will it?

In more danger of having stairs? So you think hey, this added risk is fine, stairs seem worse to me? You know what, I hate stairs. Built a single story house. You only have stairs as a space saver when required surely. Stairs suck. Long live the escalator.

Did you realise that Cows killed 108 people between 2003 and 2008, an average of about 22 deaths a year? Yet sharks only kill one single, solitary person in the United States each year, a 1 in 3,748,067 chance in your lifetime, so you should give up your camping trips and start heading to the beach instead if you want to run with statistics.

If you say you wish to avoid emotional rheotric out of it, you have to leave it at the door yourself as well you know.

Edited August 28, 2014 by psyche101

[green_dude777]

I think UM should make a 'finger wagging' emoticon for some posters to use.

[psyche101]

I think UM should make a 'finger wagging' emoticon for some posters to use.

And I think you should post about the subject or contribute to it, but we don't all get what we want do we.

[green_dude777]

And I think you should post about the subject or contribute to it, but we don't all get what we want do we.

This may be the only statement you've made that I agree with.

As for the topic, the guy who made the mistake paid the ultimate price... he's dead. There isn't much more to say.

Now for the next full page of Attic Speak from Psyche.

[+OverSword]

And I think you should post about the subject or contribute to it, but we don't all get what we want do we.

LOL! Good one.

Regardless of all the side arguments about cars, chainsaws and lawnmowers (you don't let your kid ride out of jealousy not caution) I don't think anyone here is arguing that the parent of this girl bringing her, the weapon instructor not disallowing such a little kid to fire an automatic weapon, or indeed the whole "bring your family out for Uzi's and lunch" were a smart thing to do. I think the question should be are the Arizona legislators going to develop some extra legislation for this type of facility (come and fire a machine gun for fun) or perhaps ban them altogether perhaps along with canceling the licenses to posses automatic weapons for civilians (and police for that matter), or are they going to chalk it up to a necessary sacrifice to protect 2nd amendment rights?

[green_dude777]

LOL! Good one.

Regardless of all the side arguments about cars, chainsaws and lawnmowers (you don't let your kid ride out of jealousy not caution) I don't think anyone here is arguing that the parent of this girl bringing her, the weapon instructor not disallowing such a little kid to fire an automatic weapon, or indeed the whole "bring your family out for Uzi's and lunch" were a smart thing to do. I think the question should be are the Arizona legislators going to develop some extra legislation for this type of facility (come and fire a machine gun for fun) or perhaps ban them altogether perhaps along with canceling the licenses to posses automatic weapons for civilians (and police for that matter), or are they going to chalk it up to a necessary sacrifice to protect 2nd amendment rights?

No need to punish all for a very small group's mistake. That range's owner hasn't had an accident prior to this for 14+ years.

[Rlyeh]

Then maybe they should not be allowed to ride in cars either. It's much more dangerous.

Or at least not driving them.

[Sundew]

IF you are going to teach a very young person about guns and gun safety, you don't hand them an Uzi! I have fired one and it's not something a child of that age should be handling. I grown woman I know could not pull the bolt back on the Uzi to load the first round.

IF you are going to teach a young child you use an air pistol or a .22 caliber pistol, something with little recoil and you teach safety first and always. I don't know what these people were even thinking. Guns are not toys! I feel very badly for the child, and she could just as easily shot herself as well.

[psyche101]

This may be the only statement you've made that I agree with.

As for the topic, the guy who made the mistake paid the ultimate price... he's dead. There isn't much more to say.

Now for the next full page of Attic Speak from Psyche.

Actually, there is more to be said, but I am not the person to say it, Oversword already did, and very well I might add:

LOL! Good one.

Regardless of all the side arguments about cars, chainsaws and lawnmowers (you don't let your kid ride out of jealousy not caution) I don't think anyone here is arguing that the parent of this girl bringing her, the weapon instructor not disallowing such a little kid to fire an automatic weapon, or indeed the whole "bring your family out for Uzi's and lunch" were a smart thing to do. I think the question should be are the Arizona legislators going to develop some extra legislation for this type of facility (come and fire a machine gun for fun) or perhaps ban them altogether perhaps along with canceling the licenses to posses automatic weapons for civilians (and police for that matter), or are they going to chalk it up to a necessary sacrifice to protect 2nd amendment rights?

Indeed, the 2nd seems sacred to Americans, I simply do not get it, and have trouble with seeing why people hold it in such high regard, however this is the nail on the head. Getting rid of guns in a situation like this would be viewed by many as a knee jerk reaction, and with the uncanny love of guns so many Americans have it seems to me that the largest impact would be negative. A focus on age restrictions seems a good place to start I agree, and examining the thinking on sub-machine guns. I would think it would be a good precedent to overhaul safety issues in all such centres and implement new fines and guidelines.

It will be more than interesting to see what eventuates from this tragedy. The Port Arthur Massacre was the catalyst that put major support behind Australian gun control laws, but I honestly doubt it would have any similar impact there going by responses I have seen in support of allowing a child to handle a deadly weapon. Many seem to find the choice of weapon was the error, but I honestly believe that allowing children to fire weapons at all is a grave error.