Militant God Botherers

[libstaK]

It's ridiculous that he CAN take a 10k pay cut. He SHOULDN'T be paid in the first place thats my point! If serving god is his calling why does he need to be paid for it? God will provide. Did you bother to read the link I posted on page 4? The evidence is all there.

You have got to be kidding me? He needs to get an income to keep a roof over his head, clothes on his back and food on the table for his family - like every other human being who lives in this world. This just reeks being cynical and cold as ice about the realities of existence because you believe that doing so furthers your penchant for demeaning anything related to belief in God.

Oh and did you bother to read my link on the statistics of the Catholic Church? The evidence of where all these "riches" go is all there.

Edited September 1, 2014 by libstaK

[bigjim36]

You have got to be kidding me? He needs to get an income to keep a roof over his head, clothes on his back and food on the table for his family - like every other human being who lives in this world. This just reeks being cynical and cold as ice about the realities of existence because you believe that doing so furthers your penchant for demeaning anything related to belief in God.

Oh and did you bother to read my link on the statistics of the Catholic Church? The evidence of where all these "riches" go is all there.

Oh apologies, there I was thinking that the church gave him his home and provided him with the food to eat and a car too no doubt. What was I thinking? This obviously is a special pastor who has shunned the freebies that everyone else gets and has paid for his own? But wait is he living off the donations of parishinors because surely it's the churches job to pay him to worship god? Have I got that right?

[libstaK]

Oh apologies, there I was thinking that the church gave him his home and provided him with the food to eat and a car too no doubt. What was I thinking? This obviously is a special pastor who has shunned the freebies that everyone else gets and has paid for his own? But wait is he living off the donations of parishinors because surely it's the churches job to pay him to worship god? Have I got that right?

PA's Pastor is not a member of the Catholic Church - there are a variety of christian denominations whose Pastors create and manage their own ministries without support from a central body. The existence of the ministry is dependent on the membership's willingness to have it exist aka: by contribution that is used in it's establishment etc. My brother was a christian Pastor in this same vein. He started his congregation in a school room donated for the purpose by the local council for use on Sundays for the prayer meetings. So no, there are a great many things you do not have "right".

Incidentally my parents were original contributors to a different social group. The now established local Slovenian Community Centre. Along with many fellow members they contributed financially as founding members and put in long hours of labour to build the centre - my father's trade is a bricklayer. They served as Vice President and Treasurer and in a variety of voluntary capacities for many years, there was no full time position required so there were no salaries to the board but that is the only difference. A religious ministry requires the services of a full time clergy to minister to the flock at need, a social group doesn't need the same. Otherwise the financial contributions were far greater toward the setting up of this centre than donations we typically make to our local church to fund it's existence. So would you condemn just the one or the other or both by your own rules?

[bigjim36]

PA's Pastor is not a member of the Catholic Church - there are a variety of christian denominations whose Pastors create and manage their own ministries without support from a central body. The existence of the ministry is dependent on the membership's willingness to have it exist aka: by contribution that is used in it's establishment etc. My brother was a christian Pastor in this same vein. He started his congregation in a school room donated for the purpose by the local council for use on Sundays for the prayer meetings. So no, there are a great many things you do not have "right".

Incidentally my parents were original contributors to a different social group. The now established local Slovenian Community Centre. Along with many fellow members they contributed financially as founding members and put in long hours of labour to build the centre - my father's trade is a bricklayer. They served as Vice President and Treasurer and in a variety of voluntary capacities for many years, there was no full time position required so there were no salaries to the board but that is the only difference. A religious ministry requires the services of a full time clergy to minister to the flock at need, a social group doesn't need the same. Otherwise the financial contributions were far greater toward the setting up of this centre than donations we typically make to our local church to fund it's existence. So would you condemn just the one or the other or both by your own rules?

If it's connected to a church then yes I condemn it. All religions are man made falsehoods used to promote power and wealth for its leaders. Show me one where everyone is equal, where donations go to help the poor not help pay for a pastor or pay for the church roof etc.

[libstaK]

If it's connected to a church then yes I condemn it. All religions are man made falsehoods used to promote power and wealth for its leaders. Show me one where everyone is equal, where donations go to help the poor not help pay for a pastor or pay for the church roof etc.

I showed you the catholic stats - you still haven't bothered have you? Anyway, as to the "roof" people need space to congregate where they are not going to be rained on and people have ascetic tendencies, regardless whether they are secular or religious, just where do you expect people to gather? All groups and associations build and provide places specifically for their members to congregate. It can be a public nuisance if people just gather "wherever" even in other's homes it can cause problems with the neighbours.

[XenoFish]

There is something unique about going to church. I think it's the social interaction with people of similar beliefs. I'm highly considering going back to church again. My wife and I. I actually felt the best in life when I did, well before the church started being a little crazy about things. So I might adventure out of my chaote and agnostic frame work here soon. It is not fair to judge the whole because of a few bad examples. I do not worry about the faithful, it's the fanatics that worry me.

[Doug1029]

There is something unique about going to church. I think it's the social interaction with people of similar beliefs.

That is also true of atheist clubs, model railroad clubs, or even nudist clubs. It's the social interaction, not the religion, that is beneficial.

Doug

[XenoFish]

To each their own, I suppose.

[Davros of Skaro]

There is no conversing with you Davros, your penchant for resorting to bizarre "what if" comparisons instead of discussing actual beliefs is pointless and only designed to feed your self serving sense of superiority.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (KJV)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep . 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Insert very large rolling eyes emoticon here.--->

[Border Collie]

If it's connected to a church then yes I condemn it. All religions are man made falsehoods used to promote power and wealth for its leaders. Show me one where everyone is equal, where donations go to help the poor not help pay for a pastor or pay for the church roof etc.

The Quakers, I believe.

[bigjim36]

The Quakers, I believe.

You believe incorrectly

There may be hymns, a sermon, Bible readings, joint prayers and a period of silent worship. The worship resembles the church services of other protestant denominations, although in most cases does not include any Eucharist service. A paid pastor may be responsible for pastoral care. Worship of this kind is celebrated by about 89% of Friends worldwide.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers

[+Link of Hyrule]

It's ridiculous that he CAN take a 10k pay cut. He SHOULDN'T be paid in the first place thats my point! If serving god is his calling why does he need to be paid for it? God will provide. Did you bother to read the link I posted on page 4? The evidence is all there.

What? Study for four years then work a full time job at no pay? How does he live, pay bills, rent, car, petrol, food....

And yes, I read the link. Lots of claims, yet not a single source for anything claimed. Try another link: http://impracticalcatholic.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/ask-tony-why-doesnt-catholic-church.html?m=1 - that might help a little.

Oh apologies, there I was thinking that the church gave him his home and provided him with the food to eat and a car too no doubt. What was I thinking? This obviously is a special pastor who has shunned the freebies that everyone else gets and has paid for his own? But wait is he living off the donations of parishinors because surely it's the churches job to pay him to worship god? Have I got that right?

Wow, your knowledge of how churches work is beyond zero. This pastor, just like every pastor I've ever had, paid their own rent, bought their own car, ate food they bought themselves, and all those other goodies. Your ignorance is pitiable, Jim. Next you'll be saying pastors only work 2 hours a week, each Sunday morning. Edited September 1, 2014 by Paranoid Android

[Doug1029]

You believe incorrectly

There may be hymns, a sermon, Bible readings, joint prayers and a period of silent worship. The worship resembles the church services of other protestant denominations, although in most cases does not include any Eucharist service. A paid pastor may be responsible for pastoral care. Worship of this kind is celebrated by about 89% of Friends worldwide.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers

I don't know what the numbers are, but Quaker Meetings have no pastor; Quaker churches do. Meetings tend to be silent, sometimes totally so. The meetings I have been associated with do not usually use hymns, though once in awhile hymns are sung outside of meeting. Individual Friends who have received a message may deliver it. These are usually short inspirational items. Long-winded sermons are definitely frowned upon and those who persist in delivering them may be eldered. Bible readings are rarely used, but I do recall one instance in which a gentleman quoted the Bible from memory. "Prayers" are usually silent. Sacraments are not used because mindless ceremonies do not aid in communion with God. When the need arises, Friends may hold a Meeting for Worship for Marriage, or a Meeting for Worship in Memory (of a deceased member), but these are separate meetings and not part of the regular Meeting for Worship.

Lack of hireling priests makes Quaker meetings far less expensive than other religious groups; however, the meeting house roof still needs to be repaired and there are some other expenses that need to be taken care of, like supplies for First Day School. Financial matters are part of the monthly business meeting - Quakers do not pass the hat at worship services; one does not take pay for doing God's work.

Doug

[Doug1029]

What? Study for four years then work a full time job at no pay? How does he live, pay bills, rent, car, petrol, food....

God's work is the responsibility of all. Each must do his share. That's how the work of the church gets done. The story goes that Jesus' father was a carpenter. Are modern preachers so much better that they can't earn an honest living?

Wow, your knowledge of how churches work is beyond zero. This pastor, just like every pastor I've ever had, paid their own rent, bought their own car, ate food they bought themselves, and all those other goodies. Your ignorance is pitiable, Jim. Next you'll be saying pastors only work 2 hours a week, each Sunday morning.

A few preachers at the larger churches are provided with a manse and perhaps a vehicle. Most have to provide their own. Most seem to be worried mostly about their retirements, rather than furthering good works.

Doug

[+Link of Hyrule]

God's work is the responsibility of all. Each must do his share. That's how the work of the church gets done. The story goes that Jesus' father was a carpenter. Are modern preachers so much better that they can't earn an honest living?

A few preachers at the larger churches are provided with a manse and perhaps a vehicle. Most have to provide their own. Most seem to be worried mostly about their retirements, rather than furthering good works.

Doug

Pastoral work Is honest living. But I agree that God's work is something all Christians should do. Pastors simply have more time to devote to the task than the rest of us.

[libstaK]

God's work is the responsibility of all. Each must do his share. That's how the work of the church gets done. The story goes that Jesus' father was a carpenter. Are modern preachers so much better that they can't earn an honest living?

A few preachers at the larger churches are provided with a manse and perhaps a vehicle. Most have to provide their own. Most seem to be worried mostly about their retirements, rather than furthering good works.

Doug

How did you arrive at the figure of "most" in this scenario exactly?

[Doug1029]

How did you arrive at the figure of "most" in this scenario exactly?

By count of the ones I know. But then, the churches I know about are mostly the low-end ones - those that serve poor neighborhoods.

Doug

[+Hammerclaw]

It's rather comforting, in a perverse sort of way, to see so many atheists and unbelievers who can't seem to get God off their minds. Religion is more about dying than about living and we are all, without exception, going to die. That includes you, Jim, and I'd rather be wrong my way, than your way. *snip

Edited September 2, 2014 by Paranoid Android

[Doug1029]

Pastoral work Is honest living. But I agree that God's work is something all Christians should do. Pastors simply have more time to devote to the task than the rest of us.

I know some fine people who are involved in the ministry. There are several that I admire very much. One has a church, but he also teaches Information Technology at the local high school, farms and occasionally takes on carpentry jobs. I wish I had his energy. I don't belong to his church, but he is certainly someone who tries to live as he believes Jesus would want him to.

I know a Catholic Brother who has taken vows of poverty. He lives in a monastery down near Shawnee. He is an accomplished musician. I don't know what he does in the monastery, but he is very generous of his time in teaching music.

And I know of another preacher who runs a center at a college campus. He believes very strongly in a life of service. His wife works to enable him to preach - that may be carrying dedication a bit too far.

And I know some preachers who are basically, con men. You can tell by the size of their paychecks. One of those con men I used to know was part of Jim Baker's "PTL Ministries." Over twenty years later he still owes a close friend of mine for lighting fixtures he bought on credit for his "church." We decided that "PTL" actually means "Pay the Lady."

Pastoral work is not the most-honest (or best-policed) field of endeavor. And there's a reason for that. Governing boards just assume that because the person is a preacher, he must be honest and as a result, never run an audit or otherwise give any indication that they care what he does. And that can be a big temptation to put in the way of a weak person. The board at PTL failed miserably in its job to protect the church and weak people did what weak people do.

Doug

[Doug1029]

It's rather comforting, in a perverse sort of way, to see so many atheists and unbelievers who can't seem to get God off their minds. Religion is more about dying than about living and we are all, without exception, going to die. That includes you, Jim, and I'd rather be wrong my way, than your way. You might want to lose some weight; you might live a little longer.

I suspect that a lot of those folks you are assuming to be atheists, aren't. There are a lot of searchers out there who would probably join a church if they could see that someone actually practiced "Christian love." They are folks who've been the victims of people who would rather thump the Bible than read it. Victims of religious abuse. They are going to be very wary of joining any church, and with good reason.

Your only choice, as a Christian, is to explain your message as best you can and welcome them into your midst. And be careful what you say. I have been to a church where the preacher ridiculed atheism and said atheists were going to hell. There was a person in his audience who would have joined that church, but after listening a rendition of hate, decided to look elsewhere - I was that person. That was 40 years ago and I'm still looking.

Doug

[+Hammerclaw]

I suspect that a lot of those folks you are assuming to be atheists, aren't. There are a lot of searchers out there who would probably join a church if they could see that someone actually practiced "Christian love." They are folks who've been the victims of people who would rather thump the Bible than read it. Victims of religious abuse. They are going to be very wary of joining any church, and with good reason.

Your only choice, as a Christian, is to explain your message as best you can and welcome them into your midst. And be careful what you say. I have been to a church where the preacher ridiculed atheism and said atheists were going to hell. There was a person in his audience who would have joined that church, but after listening a rendition of hate, decided to look elsewhere - I was that person. That was 40 years ago and I'm still looking.

Doug

I don't judge people. I believe there are people in mosques and synogogues and temples who will become one with their creator before some Christians will. I don't judge people by their religion, denomination, faith or lack thereof. The only person in this whole world I need to judge is myself, and everyday I find myself wanting. Everyday, I try to be a little better a person, but sinning is a hard habit to break, and no one is pure. To borrow words from a song; I'm not as good as I'm gonna get, but I'm better than I use to be. Don't be so judgemental, unless you want to be judged as harshly as you judge others. If you want forgiveness, first forgive yourself. If you seek God, give him a chance to find you.

[toyomotor]

If you seek God, give him a chance to find you.

Mate, that's rather presumptuous. And in this age of Political Correctness, if there is a God, she could turn out to be black.

[+Hammerclaw]

Mate, that's rather presumptuous. And in this age of Political Correctness, if there is a God, she could turn out to be black.

So? If out of africa is correct, modern man started out black. Religion is just a conduit to infinity, and in it's various manefestations man creates God in his own image in order to relate to him.

[Doug1029]

I don't judge people. I believe there are people in mosques and synogogues and temples who will become one with their creator before some Christians will. I don't judge people by their religion, denomination, faith or lack thereof. The only person in this whole world I need to judge is myself, and everyday I find myself wanting. Everyday, I try to be a little better a person, but sinning is a hard habit to break, and no one is pure. To borrow words from a song; I'm not as good as I'm gonna get, but I'm better than I use to be. Don't be so judgemental, unless you want to be judged as harshly as you judge others. If you want forgiveness, first forgive yourself. If you seek God, give him a chance to find you.

Not quite two weeks ago, Animal Control raided a place south of here out in the county. It was a puppy farm. The animals were living in wire cages barely large enough to turn around in. They were stacked one on top of the other so that urine and feces from the dogs above fell on the dogs below. They contacted me because they knew my daughter (the one who works on oil rigs), has taken three abused dogs and nursed them back to health. When we picked up the dog, its back had rows of scabs from flea bites. These were about 3/8-inch wide and in rows between the ribs - not just a few fleas - hundreds of them. Her hind end muscles were so atrophied she could barely walk. Her toes were splayed apart from the cage wire and she has a broken left foreleg that was never treated and has healed crooked. She has born at least one litter of pups. She was in starving condition.

The person in question was a "pillar of the church," a deacon and lay preacher. A "fine upstanding Christian." He was well known for his church work. And yet, if there is a hell, there's a special place there for him.

And if that's being judgmental, then so be it. I am sick of the hypocrisy I see displayed in the name of Christianity. There are good people who are Christian, but there are people like this one, too. They are also part of your religion. Judge me, judge yourselves, for who you are, not who you pretend to be.

That dog turned out to be a trindle basenji - a pure-blood dog with a three-colored coat with brindle points. Even spayed, she's worth about $1500. My daughter brought her over for a visit. The flea bites are healing and she has gained weight in just one week. Her coat is still prickly from where the vet shaved her to clean her up. And she is still very weak, but she's improving. But she is very much afraid of wire cages. And she is afraid of strangers. But she'll spend hours cuddling in your lap. She's a sweet dog and deserves far better than her previous Christian owner ever delivered.

And what chance did your Christian god give her?

That's why I'm leaning toward atheism.

Doug

Edited September 2, 2014 by Doug1029

[+Hammerclaw]

Not quite two weeks ago, Animal Control raided a place south of here out in the county. It was a puppy farm. The animals were living in wire cages barely large enough to turn around in. They were stacked one on top of the other so that urine and feces from the dogs above fell on the dogs below. They contacted me because they knew my daughter (the one who works on oil rigs), has taken three abused dogs and nursed them back to health. When we picked up the dog, its back had rows of scabs from flea bites. These were about 3/8-inch wide and in rows between the ribs - not just a few fleas - hundreds of them. Her hind end muscles were so atrophied she could barely walk. Her toes were splayed apart from the cage wire and she has a broken left foreleg that was never treated and has healed crooked. She has born at least one litter of pups. She was in starving condition.

The person in question was a "pillar of the church," a deacon and lay preacher. A "fine upstanding Christian." He was well known for his church work. And yet, if there is a hell, there's a special place there for him.

And if that's being judgmental, then so be it. I am sick of the hypocrisy I see displayed in the name of Christianity. There are good people who are Christian, but there are people like this one, too. They are also part of your religion. Judge me, judge yourselves, for who you are, not who you pretend to be.

That dog turned out to be a trindle basenji - a pure-blood dog with a three-colored coat with brindle points. Even spayed, she's worth about $1500. My daughter brought her over for a visit. The flea bites are healing and she has gained weight in just one week. Her coat is still prickly from where the vet shaved her to clean her up. And she is still very weak, but she's improving. But she is very much afraid of wire cages. And she is afraid of strangers. But she'll spend hours cuddling in your lap. She's a sweet dog and deserves far better than her previous Christian owner ever delivered.

And what chance did your Christian god give her?

That's why I'm leaning toward atheism.

Doug

Honey you don't have make any excuses if you want to be an atheist, that's your choice. If you became a christian, you would still sin, everyday, for the rest of your life, as do all christian. To err is human to forgive, devine--but I can guarantee there's not anymore forgiveness in most christians than there is in you.