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IS behead US hostage Steven Sotloff

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bee

That the Messenger of Allah said: "There are six things with Allah for the
. He is forgiven with the first flow of blood (he suffers), he is shown his place in Paradise, he is protected from punishment in the grave, secured from the greatest terror, the crown of dignity is placed upon his head - and its gems are better than the world and what is in it - he is married to seventy two wives among Al-Huril-'Ayn of Paradise, and he may intercede for seventy of his close relatives."

http://en.wikipedia....ouri#72_virgins

Seems to me to offer a pretty high incentive for martyrdom.

Indeed.....

'he is shown his place in Paradise, he is protected from punishment in the grave, secured from the greatest terror, the crown of dignity is placed upon his head '

Assuring them that they will circumvent karma.....?....clever....

BUT.....what if those assurances are dead wrong (as I believe they are)

and

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Lilly

IMO if you kill others simply because they have a different religion from your own, it's highly unlikely the God will be happy with you. I can't see how the top power in the universe (aka, God) is going to be happy with that. If God disapproves of anyone to the point of wanting to wipe them out then I'm confident this will happen without human intervention. Just my personal belief there.

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Lilly

BUT.....what if those assurances are dead wrong (as I believe they are)

I think this idea is wrong as well. I believe justice in the hereafter would have to be, well, 'just'. More like, you will reap what you sow. I can't see being rewarded for heinous acts of murder and violence.

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RavenHawk

I have no doubts that our current military *could* deliver a death blow to ISIS, but considering two things, the solidness of ISIS and the ineptness of our military (because of all the cuts and pink slips). I truly think that our POTUS thinks that technology alone can win the day and it doesn’t matter who is wielding it. That is never the case. ISIS is not an invincible, supernatural force but Obama is an over-confidant community hack which is a deadly combination favoring ISIS. This is exactly how Mohammed was able to defeat far superior forces. Considering we lost 4000 in a decade, we will still be required to put boots on the ground. Be prepared for 4000 in a month if not a day. Will the American public have the stomach for that? The weakest of new allies will find their homefront the target for ISIS which will break the unity of the alliance.

This President has two years to entrench us deeply into a Vietnam-like conflict that the next President won’t be able to turn around without totally disengaging but by that time, the American people will be tired of the situation - corruption and ineptly run. In the end we could retreat even more in defeat and ISIS will remain. It’ll be a far drastic difference than shortly after the surge when we had the initiative rather than in Vietnam where we had were reacting to the VC. For being a warrior people, our leaders don’t know how to fight us. All it would take are a few hard earned victories on the ground and the folks on the homefront would find the courage to continue on. But it all starts with the leadership at the top.

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bee

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Yikes.....a devastating and honest analysis RavenHawk ....(as always)

You're not very impressed with the Obama Administation..are you... ^_^

.

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and then

I have no doubts that our current military *could* deliver a death blow to ISIS, but considering two things, the solidness of ISIS and the ineptness of our military (because of all the cuts and pink slips). I truly think that our POTUS thinks that technology alone can win the day and it doesn't matter who is wielding it. That is never the case. ISIS is not an invincible, supernatural force but Obama is an over-confidant community hack which is a deadly combination favoring ISIS. This is exactly how Mohammed was able to defeat far superior forces. Considering we lost 4000 in a decade, we will still be required to put boots on the ground. Be prepared for 4000 in a month if not a day. Will the American public have the stomach for that? The weakest of new allies will find their homefront the target for ISIS which will break the unity of the alliance.

This President has two years to entrench us deeply into a Vietnam-like conflict that the next President won't be able to turn around without totally disengaging but by that time, the American people will be tired of the situation - corruption and ineptly run. In the end we could retreat even more in defeat and ISIS will remain. It'll be a far drastic difference than shortly after the surge when we had the initiative rather than in Vietnam where we had were reacting to the VC. For being a warrior people, our leaders don't know how to fight us. All it would take are a few hard earned victories on the ground and the folks on the homefront would find the courage to continue on. But it all starts with the leadership at the top.

And today we have none - NONE from the one who is supposed to lead us all. Sending a few divisions to Iraq and Syria would be a mistake - on that I agree with him. UNLESS they were given a truly free hand to make war and destroy the enemy, not fight a pc war like Israel tried to do. And since we KNOW that isn't going to happen then we should just keep striking them where they gather until we come up we some real leadership.

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RavenHawk

I think this idea is wrong as well. I believe justice in the hereafter would have to be, well, 'just'. More like, you will reap what you sow. I can't see being rewarded for heinous acts of murder and violence.

Who says that ISIS’ murderous acts are heinous? They are following Allah’s commands for Jihad to the letter. Anticipating one thing you might say, would be to quote the following to me “One who kills an innocent has killed the whole of humanity.”. Do you read this with an Islamic mindset or a Western mindset? A Westerner will interpret “humanity” (or Mankind) as every human being despite religious belief. In Islam, the Muslim will use Tawriya and Kitman to allow the Westerner to continue to believe that. To the Muslim, “humanity” refers to only the Ummah or the body of believers. Islam divides the world into two groups, dar al-Islam (the House of Peace) or the Ummah and dar al-Harb (House of War) or the non-believer. All those in the latter are not innocent (man, Woman, or child).

The whole ayah reads:

5:32 – “Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land (spreading mischief in the land) - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

Why is there a need to reinforce “Thou shall not kill” among Jews? That is already part of their credo. Therefore it must mean something else. Here, we see a dualistic meaning. It says “killing a soul” which implies a Muslim. There doesn’t seem to be a restriction of a Muslim killing a Jew or a non-believer. Plus, in the exception “for corruption [done] in the land” which implies killing a non-believer is ok because they bring corruption (mischief) in the land by just existing.

Another ayah:

4:93 – “But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment.

This reinforces the difference between a believer and non-believer. And this brings us to the “Verse of the Sword”:

9:5 – “And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

2:191 says the same. This clearly describes what is to be done with the non-Ummah. Shirk is considered worse than killing. To some degree then, the Muslim is doing the non-believer a favor by killing them. The Hadith Sahih Muslim (20:4696) states:

One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire or determination for Jihad died the death of a hypocrite.

Would imply that all Muslims at all times should fight in the “Way of Allah” and that there are no *innocent bystanders*. And if all Muslims fight in the “way of Allah”, then:

4:74 – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fights in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

AND

3:157 – “And if ye are slain, or die, in the way of Allah, forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass.

So is this heinous or not? It sounds very devout to me and what “al-jihad al-asghar” is in a nutshell. The initial viciousness is part of the plan. If taking Baghdad is still a goal of ISIS, it will fall and what we might see is clemency afforded to the majority of inhabitants. In just the same manner that Mohammed took Mecca. The inhabitants faced slaughter even after surrender and Mohammed gave them the choice to convert or die. And the people chose conversion. In this case, it would be more repent and become right with your faith. But by doing that will swell the ranks that even the Kurds will not be able to resist.

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Space Commander Travis

Ah yes, they're all would-be murderers. So by extension, if ISIS/Whatever the hell they're called should be mercilessly wiped out, they should all be mercilessly wiped out, since they're only doing it properly if they want to murder all unbelievers? Yes, that's really helpful.

but then, I'm probably too simple to understand it, it takes someone with great erudition and knowledge to understand that they're all would-be murderers, or at least they are if they're doing it properly.It takes a really in-depth knowledge and years of study to understand that, and it's not at all simplistic and bellicose.

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pallidin

ISIS must be destroyed, regardless of cost or political contention.

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and then

Ah yes, they're all would-be murderers. So by extension, if ISIS/Whatever the hell they're called should be mercilessly wiped out, they should all be mercilessly wiped out, since they're only doing it properly if they want to murder all unbelievers? Yes, that's really helpful.

but then, I'm probably too simple to understand it, it takes someone with great erudition and knowledge to understand that they're all would-be murderers, or at least they are if they're doing it properly.It takes a really in-depth knowledge and years of study to understand that, and it's not at all simplistic and bellicose.

Dodging back into the "they're all" rhetoric are we? He was speaking of ISIL only keeping diligently the words of the Qur'an. Of course they are radical and extreme by today's standards for most Muslims. Do ALL Muslims have to be engaged in such behavior before one can call a spade a spade? That restriction certainly doesn't exist where Christian's misbehavior is concerned.

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Space Commander Travis

ISIS must be destroyed, regardless of cost or political contention.

And i wouldn't argue about that, it's just the current level of hysteria that blows things completely and utterly out of all proportion.

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RavenHawk

Ah yes, they're all would-be murderers.

Never said they were all would-be murderers. You didn’t catch the subtleties I mentioned. There is a difference between murder and just killing. There is no moral implication behind *killing*. They are all would-be sleeper agents only because that is the dogma they are brought up in. Most will choose the culture in which they are comfortable.

So by extension, if ISIS/Whatever the hell they're called should be mercilessly wiped out, they should all be mercilessly wiped out, since they're only doing it properly if they want to murder all unbelievers? Yes, that's really helpful.

It’s not a matter of doing it *properly* as it is about their mindset. It is a poison. It’s like releasing a habitual child rapist into the general population. And the general population is made up of the unbeliever or those Muslims that commit Shirk. You just can’t do it. There is no rehabilitation. They will always offend. Now within their own faith, it is not they that are the habitual offenders. To them, it’s the unbelievers that cause mischief throughout the land. It is the unbeliever that needs to be eradicated. It’s a clash of cultures. Only one will win out. They are incompatible unless one complies with the other. Are you ok with living as a Dhimmis?

but then, I'm probably too simple to understand it, it takes someone with great erudition and knowledge to understand that they're all would-be murderers, or at least they are if they're doing it properly.It takes a really in-depth knowledge and years of study to understand that, and it's not at all simplistic and bellicose.

No, it doesn’t take great erudition. It only requires understanding basic concepts. I don’t recall if you’ve ever stated if you believe in GOD or not? If you don’t, then I can understand why you might not understand those concepts. But it doesn’t matter if you understand or not. Your understanding is not required. But if you care to know what is happening then you need to look at it not in your Western sensibilities.

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RavenHawk

And i wouldn't argue about that, it's just the current level of hysteria that blows things completely and utterly out of all proportion.

And what would constitute not taking it at all serious? Do you think that a coalition of allied armies will defeat ISIS? You think that’s all we need to do, get the numbers and technology all on our side? Do you know how hard it is to coordinate that? Not even in WWII did it work well. America would not be involved in the Normandy landings if its Supreme Commander wasn’t an American. That was a big pill for Montgomery to swallow. In the Gulf War, of the almost 1 million soldiers from 32 nations involved, 700,000 were US forces. Even today, there are issues with chain of command in NATO and the UN.

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Merc14

And i wouldn't argue about that, it's just the current level of hysteria that blows things completely and utterly out of all proportion.

Yes, by all means let's do nothing until it is a REALLY big problem. How ridiculously short sighted and naive. Its like saying "It's just a little pre-cancerous mole why get so concerned, call me when it metastasizes into something serious and then we'll deal with it.. LMAO

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Space Commander Travis

I'm not bloody saying let's not do anything, if you'd read what I said I said I'm all for hitting them good and hard with targeted strikes, it's the hysteria, yes, hysteria, about their being an unstoppable supernatural force that could destroy western civilisation that I take with a pinch of salt. Do please try to pay attention.

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psyche101

I'm not bloody saying let's not do anything, if you'd read what I said I said I'm all for hitting them good and hard with targeted strikes, it's the hysteria, yes, hysteria, about their being an unstoppable supernatural force that could destroy western civilisation that I take with a pinch of salt. Do please try to pay attention.

ISIS have murdered women and children in cold blood, used civilians as human shields, crucified civilians dues to the shame of being christian, radicalise youth and to top it off threatened the US saying they will fly their flag from the white house. Their goal is to slaughter all who do not submit and force everyone they encounter to worship their god and live under their rule.

As such, I do not see the current level of "hysteria" as being unreasonable. It only took a handful of radicals to kill 3,000 Americans in a very short time. There is no room in a modern world for these people. They belong to a time long gone.

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Space Commander Travis

And you're buying into the hystreria just as much as everyone else. "Have said they'll fly their flag from the White house"? And you believe them? Please try to read again what I said, I'm not saying we shouldn't do something about them, I'm saying we should, I'm saying I'm a lone voice in the wilderness crying to look at them with a bit of a sense of proportion.

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psyche101

And you're buying into the hystreria just as much as everyone else. "Have said they'll fly their flag from the White house"? And you believe them? Please try to read again what I said, I'm not saying we shouldn't do something about them, I'm saying we should, I'm saying I'm a lone voice in the wilderness crying to look at them with a bit of a sense of proportion.

Why yes they did indeed say just that.

In it, an ISIS militant stated, “I say to America that the Islamic Caliphate has been established and we will not stop."

He called for America to halt "cowardly" drone attacks and instead to send soldiers.

“We will raise the flag of Allah in the White House,” he said.

LINK

We know why they want the drones stopped, they are losing the war against them, and no lives are lost, they are losing their terrorist power. The pressure needs to remain applied firmly.

Yes I believe they will make such an attempt, that is all they do. Who would have thought a handful of men with boxcutters could have killed 3,000 people in a matter of minutes. They kill children for goodness sakes, these people have no brains, no morals, no ethics, nothing other than a blood lust. I do believe that is something to be vigilant of. Yes, I see you think that something should be done about them, but we cannot just sit back until another 911 happens pondering tactics. Targeted strikes is exactly what people are proposing, not Nuking the entire region. Foot soldiers are no good, that is what they want so it should be the last consideration. Don't give them anything to feel victorious about, just send in machines and wipe them out. Let them dance over drone wreckage, not soldiers decapitated heads. The children they kidnapped a few months ago is reason enough to wipe them of the face of the earth. They set the precedent, as you say, that is the point of terror and it worked. They want people to come rescue innocents so they can hide behind things like cowards and shoot the real men. Now that they have opened Pandora's Box, they deserve every assault the globe can throw at them until they are completely removed. It's not like Islam, where some people are harmless and just want an intellectual battle, it's bloodlust trained into each and every single IS recruit.

Yes, I am buying into the hysteria, it seems more than justified, radicalisation is a real everyday threat that every country on earth is vulnerable to, and it is happening more than it would appear that you realise. That young man whom I posted a picture of wearing ISIS and ISIL badges in a militant uniform is a perfect example of the damage IS does overseas when not slaughtering infidels wantonly. In My Opinion, no Australian at all ever should have the thoughts that evil little boy does. Any who do ought to be immediately exiled. It shows us the real threat of IS at home on every shore. IS is a man made disease, not a religion. It needs to be cured and eradicated. IS has no place in the modern world. Something akin to Ebola, a nasty filthy thing we would all be better of without that does not good for anyone, and we have had many Ebola scare's of late too, which we are better being vigilant about rather than let it take the smallest foothold.

LINK - Islamic State: Where IS recruits are really coming from

Edited by psyche101
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Space Commander Travis

I don't doubt they said it, all these kind of crowds indulge in blustering propaganda, but everyone seems to be doing this lot such a great big favour by believing all their bluster.

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Lilly

As such, I do not see the current level of "hysteria" as being unreasonable. It only took a handful of radicals to kill 3,000 Americans in a very short time. There is no room in a modern world for these people. They belong to a time long gone.

Yep, 3,000 civilian Americans dead in one morning...and we're not supposed to worry about these ISIS guys?

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

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psyche101

I don't doubt they said it, all these kind of crowds indulge in blustering propaganda, but everyone seems to be doing this lot such a great big favour by believing all their bluster.

Have a look yourself, multiple sources are confirming it, and nobody is denying it. Of course they said it, they yell Allans Snackbar every time they blow themselves up, they live to wipe the earth of us infidels and please their God. Remember, these people are so deluded they actually think their God is listening to them and watching them proudly. Believing if they can do it or not is how they managed 911 to begin with. I feel that your more lax attitude is just Barbara Bodine all over again. Same thing was thought about Kamikaze pilots. after all, what sort of a half baked idiot would fly his plane into a target for his emperor?

Edited by psyche101
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psyche101

Yep, 3,000 civilian Americans dead in one morning...and we're not supposed to worry about these ISIS guys?

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

One thing terrorism has shown us is that a lot of damage can be done with a few people.

And that there is no reasoning with a Religious Fanatic.

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Lilly

I think there are no people more dangerous than those who think God has given them the right to murder with impunity.

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Lilly

BTW, the morning news (east coast USA) is saying that the identity of the ISIS member who did the beheadings is now known. This information is to be released later in the week.

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Space Commander Travis

Yep, 3,000 civilian Americans dead in one morning...and we're not supposed to worry about these ISIS guys?

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

oh for god's sake, why won't anyone listen to what i say? I'm saying don't be hysterical about them and imagine they're supernatural and unstoppable. yes, bomb the buggers, just don't be so hysterical and defeatist about them.

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