How Gun Control Made England The Most Violent

[+Hammerclaw]

Now, since the point has been done to death, and it really isn't directly related enough to the actual OP to warrant further expansion here, I'm pretty much done. I might open a thread on it, however, because it is a good discussion point, and there is data on it, however, it is off-topic on this thread, so I won't pursue it here.

Oh, please don't. Just let them watch the re-runs and wait 'till next season.

[+Hammerclaw]

Can we talk about England and not the US?

England? How quaint.

[Arbenol]

The Bible or Harvard?

The Bible...............obviously.

[aquatus1]

I think we can agree to disagree on whatever you just said.

No...see...

There is no disagreement there. That's what I've been telling you from the start. The reason why my analogy is IDENTICAL to your analogy is because they are one and--

Ahh, nevermind. What was I thinking?

I believe in proactive self defense while you have certain reservations?

Irrelevant.

No point in afflicting the rest of readership with this fruitless disagreement. It serves no purpose and upsets civilians at their breakfast. So, I'll pat myself on the back and declare Mission Accomplished and go my melancholy way.

Perhaps it wouldn't be so melancholy if you didn't go out of your way to pick fights with people that are not disagreeing with you.

[+Hammerclaw]

No...see...

There is no disagreement there. That's what I've been telling you from the start. The reason why my analogy is IDENTICAL to your analogy is because they are one and--

Ahh, nevermind. What was I thinking?

Irrelevant.

Perhaps it wouldn't be so melancholy if you didn't go out of your way to pick fights with people that are not disagreeing with you.

Perhaps if your reading skills weren't the equal of your mastery of syntax, you'd pick up on the subtle cues of irony and sarcasm you seem to miss in so many people's posts. Yet what else can one expect from such an Immoderate moderator? Well chin-chin, and do carry on.

[Guest]

Perhaps if your reading skills weren't the equal of your mastery of syntax, you'd pick up on the subtle cues of irony and sarcasm you seem to miss in so many people's posts. Yet what else can one expect from such an Immoderate moderator? Well chin-chin, and do carry on.

I didn't spot any subtly or irony until well after you should have know your position was lost.

Br Cornelius

[aquatus1]

Perhaps if your reading skills weren't the equal of your mastery of syntax,

**gasp!**

It's true! The personal attack on my reading and writing skills completely addresses and invalidates the actual points that were previously being discussed!

you'd pick up on the subtle cues of irony and sarcasm you seem to miss in so many people's posts. Yet what else can one expect from such an Immoderate moderator? Well chin-chin, and do carry on.

Yes, I am well-known on the forum for never engaging in the subtle art of sarcasm.

That was sarcasm, incidentally. I didn't want to confuse you. I avoided using it before; The beauty and wit of the sarcastic rejoinder is a beautiful blade that merits both a skilled user and worthy opponent. I won't presume to be the former and as for the latter...well, I'll let the audience decide on that as well.

Edited September 30, 2014 by aquatus1

[+Hammerclaw]

**gasp!**

It's true! The personal attack on my reading and writing skills completely addresses and invalidates the actual points that were previously being discussed!

Yes, I am well-known on the forum for never engaging in the subtle art of sarcasm.

That was sarcasm, incidentally. I didn't want to confuse you. I avoided using it before; The beauty and wit of the sarcastic rejoinder is a beautiful blade that merits both a skilled user and worthy opponent. I won't presume to be the former and as for the latter...well, I'll let the audience decide on that as well.

Oh, I haven't attacked you; I've merely responded to your snide commentary about me, in kind. Your witty repartee can be mildly entertaining, on occasion, as is your dissembling, obfuscation and denial.

[keithisco]

Perhaps if your reading skills weren't the equal of your mastery of syntax, you'd pick up on the subtle cues of irony and sarcasm you seem to miss in so many people's posts. Yet what else can one expect from such an Immoderate moderator? Well chin-chin, and do carry on.

I have noticed that your "posts" have increasingly included Ad Hominem attacks on the other members here. I also notice that your poor grasp of syntax, and irony only serve to undermine your "pronouncements", for that is what they are. They are not substantiated with any reliable data, and I strongly suspect that your own reading skills are limited... if English is not your Mother Tongue then that is completely excusable of course.

The OP was quite clear from the start, this is a thread about an unsupportable claim that ENGLAND is the most violent amongst all European Nations. That "Red Herring" was put to bed a long time ago, and exposed as rhetorical gibberish.

If I am to be reprimanded by a Moderator for saying this, then so be it - I accept the rules, conventions, and etiquette of posting on a Public Forum.... perhaps you should also follow the same?

[+Hammerclaw]

I have noticed that your "posts" have increasingly included Ad Hominem attacks on the other members here. I also notice that your poor grasp of syntax, and irony only serve to undermine your "pronouncements", for that is what they are. They are not substantiated with any reliable data, and I strongly suspect that your own reading skills are limited... if English is not your Mother Tongue then that is completely excusable of course.

The OP was quite clear from the start, this is a thread about an unsupportable claim that ENGLAND is the most violent amongst all European Nations. That "Red Herring" was put to bed a long time ago, and exposed as rhetorical gibberish.

If I am to be reprimanded by a Moderator for saying this, then so be it - I accept the rules, conventions, and etiquette of posting on a Public Forum.... perhaps you should also follow the same?

I've politely responded to such attacks in kind, although I've never been particularly offended by them, as I've always regarded discourse here as nothing but good-natured banter, and nothing more. I am certainly as flawed an individual as any, so if I've overstepped the bounds of propriety any respect with anyone, I offer my apology. I often indulge in playing devils advocate for unpopular causes and offer myself as a foil to stimuate discussion. Frequently I'm taken far more serious than is my intent, which amuses me. Thank you for your contribution and your excellent command of latin. Russia. Russia is the most violent country in Europe.

[+Hammerclaw]

I didn't spot any subtly or irony until well after you should have know your position was lost.

Br Cornelius

Oh, Cornelius, you're such a bird-of-passage.

[Guest]

Oh, Cornelius, you're such a bird-of-passage.

I made my points enough times not to keep the discourse going.

However it is worth noting how things are perceived by others, maybe that can be educational to.

Br Cornelius

[+Hammerclaw]

I made my points enough times not to keep the discourse going.

However it is worth noting how things are perceived by others, maybe that can be educational to.

Br Cornelius

It wouldn't be the same here without you. You're not such a bad sort.

[aquatus1]

Oh, I haven't attacked you;

At least have the brass to admit your faults, man.

I've merely responded to your snide commentary about me, in kind.

No, you attacked. Dude, it's your primary means of response. You do it to everyone that you perceive as disagreeing with you.

Your witty repartee can be mildly entertaining, on occasion, as is your dissembling, obfuscation and denial.

I wish I could say the same of yours. Unfortunately, where I am entertaining, you are laughable. That you can still even pretend that I have been misleading, deceptive, or in denial, well, that's more on you than me.

By the way, welcome to the world of the anonymous. It's much easier to act in an uninhibited manner when you don't have to look yourself in the face every time you do so.

[+Hammerclaw]

At least have the brass to admit your faults, man.

No, you attacked. Dude, it's your primary means of response. You do it to everyone that you perceive as disagreeing with you.

I wish I could say the same of yours. Unfortunately, where I am entertaining, you are laughable. That you can still even pretend that I have been misleading, deceptive, or in denial, well, that's more on you than me.

By the way, welcome to the world of the anonymous. It's much easier to act in an uninhibited manner when you don't have to look yourself in the face every time you do so.

http://youtu.be/ZN3E9Yyd1HA

[Daughter of the Nine Moons]

Food for though in this whole "armed sheep shooting the wolf" scenario...Jon Weis effectively stopped a massacre and took down a gunman armed only with a little of the old oleoresin capsicum

[Daughter of the Nine Moons]

@Hammerclaw I am confused by you liking my post. You do realise that oleoresin capsicum is pepper spray and that no guns were required to stop the shooter..

[F3SS]

Spartan, Hammer! I'm here! Lol, you guys are all alone In a foreign world. This thread feels like a twighlight zone. Nothing new here, just a tipping of the scales of opinion. I had so much to say. I read the first handful of pages, skimmed the bickerfest of the last several pages and cleared about a half dozen multi-quotes. Anyhow, by memory I'll address a few things...

Frank,

You said you could accept a clerk defending his cash register and merchandise with a gun but you cannot accept defending ones home and family the same way. That is unfortunate psychology. Cash before kin?

LikelyGuy,

You said life is not an 80's action movie. I agree but can you all agree to stop portraying the U.S. as the Hollywood Wild West filled with rage induced vigilantes? It's false and regressive to the debate.

BR,

In the U.S. a burglary happens when one is not home whereas a robbery happens when one is. Can't recall the context but I remember wanting to clarify that.

Ehh, I had more although that all wasn't really adding much. I'll tell what I don't have though, besides a gun, is a strong the desire to press and express my views in a foreign thread that doesn't care about them. I guess the U.S. forums would be boring if you all felt the same.

[+Hammerclaw]

@Hammerclaw I am confused by you liking my post. You do realise that oleoresin capsicum is pepper spray and that no guns were required to stop the shooter..

He took action with what he had on hand and was comfortable with and saved lives instead of just calling 911, and that's good enough for me. He put his life on the line and is in every respect a hero. besides, I like your handle. Edited October 1, 2014 by Hammerclaw

[spartan max2]

@Hammerclaw I am confused by you liking my post. You do realise that oleoresin capsicum is pepper spray and that no guns were required to stop the shooter..

I almost liked your post too honestly

But I knew your politics better.

But I almost liked it because it sounded like you where supporting average citizens being able to have guns stopping massacures. If thus guy could do it with pepper spray then average people could easily stop somone with guns by using guns and the world would be safer. Most of the time no one stops a shooter with mace.

But I knew you didn't mean that after a second though lol

Edited October 1, 2014 by spartan max2

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Food for though in this whole "armed sheep shooting the wolf" scenario...Jon Weis effectively stopped a massacre and took down a gunman armed only with a little of the old oleoresin capsicum

My old man (a retired copper) disarmed a nutter with a gun with a can of Coca-Cola once.

[aquatus1]

I almost liked your post too honestly

But I knew your politics better.

You are willing to dismiss something you considered sensible enough to like simply because of politics?

Isn't that kinda...building fences where none are needed?

But I almost liked it because it sounded like you where supporting average citizens being able to have guns stopping massacures. If thus guy could do it with pepper spray then average people could easily stop somone with guns by using guns and the world would be safer.

Hmm...wait, no, that doesn't sound quite right...

The average person stopping an armed assailant with pepper spray is rather easy because it requires little in the way of precision, no mental conflict in terms of killing another person, and pepper spray, regardless of whether it hits any critical areas or not, it is an inflammatory, which means there will be a biological reaction (as opposed to an irritant, which will cause pain). Even if it turns out to be non-effective, the criminal is unlikely to seize the pepper spray and kill the person with it.

On the other hand, the average person facing down an armed assailant with a gun is going to be shaking just as badly as the person with the pepper spray, but a gun is far more likely to miss its target due to the shaking. Additionally, there is going to be the added conflict of killing a person, and even if the "average" person is okay with that, there is still the fact that they are directly engaging, directly being an imminent threat, to something that has shown a willingness to kill. Hopefully, they hit their target and don't panic-fire, or all they have done is increase the quantity of bullets flying haphazardly in the area. And in the event the assailant is missed, or hit but not incapacitated, he will now turn his direct attention on the person, which chances are good will end with the person dead.

More specialized tools don't make a job easier. They just make it more precise. If you can't take advantage of the precision, not only will the advantages be unlikely to be worth it, it may even be a disadvantage.

Most of the time no one stops a shooter with mace.

Oh, for heaven's sake, are we going to have to go through all this again?

[Guest]

Fess how does it feel outside of the US gun bubble - vulnerable

I told you that your gun obsession was a particularly US malady - but you didn't believe me

Br Cornelius

[F3SS]

I believed you. That's what I meant by pressing my views. It doesn't feel right being here telling others how it should be. I don't know about vulnerable but I realize where I am. It seems so often that non-Americans do not realize that when they jump into threads on our side of the ocean and get upset that we don't see it their way. You guys can have your way. I don't see anything wrong with it. It's just not for US.

[Leonardo]

I believed you. That's what I meant by pressing my views. It doesn't feel right being here telling others how it should be.

So, you have no problem with Islamic states punishing the victims of rape because they allowed the rapist the opportunity to rape them?

Because that is the bottom line of the philosophy you espouse here - that whatever anyone does is okay, so long as you can do what you consider okay. And it doesn't matter if this brings harm to those who are innocent.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Leonardo