How Gun Control Made England The Most Violent

[itsnotoutthere]

Until a few more beheadings. Oh, and didn't I know you spoke for "almost all" Brits.

Funnily enough, I really don't think that the universal response of all 'Brits' to the beheading of Lee Rigby was " God I wish we all had guns'

[Frank Merton]

As a matter of fact I think support for guns in the States is a minority position, that most Americans view it differently from some of the stuff we are seeing here.

There is a complex of opinion -- conservative (fundamentalist) religion, antipathy toward minority groups verging on racism and homophobia, nativism, the idea that America is better, and support of guns, that is not the view of most Americans. The American political system, however, enables them to interfere with the enactment of reasonable laws (single-interest voters have a good deal more influence over politicians than their numbers would otherwise indicate).

[+Hammerclaw]

That statement is simply not true.

"I don't intend to be a statistic on a government chart." I'm pretty sure everyone of those school kids in everyone of those massacres thought the same thing.

You guys have computers. Do a little research. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/manchester-police-shootings-death-for-sale-1333566

We are talking about Britain where the rule of law protects us from random gun violence so your talking bull**** again.

Can you see a single British contributor to this thread who has asked for lax gun laws - this is representative of British opinion - just as your opinion is largely representative of US opinion.

Br Cornelius

If you guys are to inflict European opinions on us about the US, turn about is fair play.

Funnily enough, I really don't think that the universal response of all 'Brits' to the beheading of Lee Rigby was " God I wish we all had guns'

I bet that soldier and some of the bystanders wished they'd had one.

[spartan max2]

As a matter of fact I think support for guns in the States is a minority position, that most Americans view it differently from some of the stuff we are seeing here.

There is a complex of opinion -- conservative (fundamentalist) religion, antipathy toward minority groups verging on racism and homophobia, nativism, the idea that America is better, and support of guns, that is not the view of most Americans. The American political system, however, enables them to interfere with the enactment of reasonable laws (single-interest voters have a good deal more influence over politicians than their numbers would otherwise indicate).

Most democrats I know even support gun ownership. My sociology professor even claimed to be a socialist and she owned a few guns. . The argument in the U.S is mostly about what regulations to have and not to have

Edited September 28, 2014 by spartan max2

[spartan max2]

"Paranoid, really? Isn't the person who thinks he needs to defend himself more paranoid?"

A good point well made.

Paranoid that if your neighbor is allowed to own a gun that he is randomly going to shoot people.

It all depends on which way you want to look at it. Both ways have reasonable logic to it IMO

[Guest]

I bet that soldier and some of the bystanders wished they'd had one.

In a country such as America where guns are common, the soldiers would have been dead from gunshot wounds before they would have had a chance to defend themselves. This is the reality of most gun fatalities - the victim doesn't see it coming till it is to late. The evidence is abundant in that soldiers have been killed on army bases despite their guns.

Br Cornelius

[FLOMBIE]

Paranoid that if your neighbor is allowed to own a gun that he is randomly going to shoot people.

It all depends on which way you want to look at it. Both ways have reasonable logic to it IMO

And I think this is a false assumption you have. I do not think that this is most people's top argument against lax gun laws.

Edit: The thing is, my neighbour in Germany could have gun. While gun laws are restrictive, it is not impossible for a private person to obtain a gun legally. And since there are proper and universal storage laws in place, I am not really bothered by that.

@John Wesley Boyd: A mirror article? You have a computer. Do a little research.

Edited September 28, 2014 by FLOMBIE

[TSS]

Guns are easily available in the UK.

That's simply not true. You need to know certain connections with a particular type of person within criminal circles (something 99% of the population wouldn't even know where to start with...). Gun crime has fallen year on year, the last stats I looked at tho were around '08/'09, of which there were 11,000 gun crimes....but when you look at them more carefully you'll see a gun crime can simply be not having it secured properly, lax paperwork etc.....of the actual people killed by firearms there was 39 that year, 12 of those were in a massacre though (rare). I can't think of any high profile killing by firearm in recent years where having a firearm would have helped you. The other gun related crimes are criminals killing criminals....so unless you are over here shifting a few suitcases of columbian marching powder about then I wouldn't worry about needing a firearm to keep you safe.

[itsnotoutthere]

"I bet that soldier and some of the bystanders wished they'd had one."

They ran him over with a car first, don't think a gun would have been much use to him.

[+Hammerclaw]

In a country such as America where guns are common, the soldiers would have been dead from gunshot wounds before they would have had a chance to defend themselves. This is the reality of most gun fatalities - the victim doesn't see it coming till it is to late. The evidence is abundant in that soldiers have been killed on army bases despite their guns.

Br Cornelius

So, if assaulted by someone wielding a gun or machete with no where to run, you would stand calmly and die like a good citizen. How noble of you. Me? I'd rather have a fighting chance, than none at all. Edited September 28, 2014 by John Wesley Boyd

[+Hammerclaw]

That's simply not true. You need to know certain connections with a particular type of person within criminal circles (something 99% of the population wouldn't even know where to start with...). Gun crime has fallen year on year, the last stats I looked at tho were around '08/'09, of which there were 11,000 gun crimes....but when you look at them more carefully you'll see a gun crime can simply be not having it secured properly, lax paperwork etc.....of the actual people killed by firearms there was 39 that year, 12 of those were in a massacre though (rare). I can't think of any high profile killing by firearm in recent years where having a firearm would have helped you. The other gun related crimes are criminals killing criminals....so unless you are over here shifting a few suitcases of columbian marching powder about then I wouldn't worry about needing a firearm to keep you safe.

That's so funny! You've just stated only the criminals in your country have access to handguns and you think that's OK!

[FLOMBIE]

"I bet that soldier and some of the bystanders wished they'd had one."

They ran him over with a car first, don't think a gun would have been much use to him.

It amazes me how many people think armed bystanders would attack the perpetrators commando style in these kind of situations. Life is not an 80's action movie.

[Guest]

That's so funny! You've just stated only the criminals in your country have access to handguns and you think that's OK!

A tiny minority of criminals have access to guns and those who do will not readily pass them on since the penalties are so sever for doing so.

The gun laws demonstrably work in cutting violent deaths and armed robbery.

Br Cornelius

[itsnotoutthere]

So, if assaulted by someone wielding a gun or machete with no where to run, you would stand calmly and die like a good citizen. How noble of you. Me? I'm rather have a fighting chance, than none at all.

This is a very flakey argument for allowing everyone easy access to a gun. And you only have to look at the statistics to see why. :-

[TSS]

That's so funny! You've just stated only the criminals in your country have access to handguns and you think that's OK!

I hate to burst your illusions John, but it's impossible to eliminate illegal firearms from any country, all you can do is make the consequences so severe for those that do that you reduce the numbers to a level that means the rest of the population don't wander around harping on about needing guns to live in their own country - have a think about that for a second

Edited September 28, 2014 by The Sky Scanner

[Guest]

So, if assaulted by someone wielding a gun or machete with no where to run, you would stand calmly and die like a good citizen. How noble of you. Me? I'd rather have a fighting chance, than none at all.

The point is when you are approached by a man with a machete you are either already incapacitated or your best option is to run. It still doesn't chyange the fact that you would already be dead in a culture where guns where the norm.

Guns offer almost no protection in a country where deadly voilence caused by guns is endemic.

Br Cornelius

[itsnotoutthere]

So, if assaulted by someone wielding a gun or machete with no where to run, you would stand calmly and die like a good citizen. How noble of you. Me? I'd rather have a fighting chance, than none at all.

So how did that help at Sandy Hook Elementry or Columbine High school?

[Frank Merton]

Most democrats I know even support gun ownership. My sociology professor even claimed to be a socialist and she owned a few guns. . The argument in the U.S is mostly about what regulations to have and not to have

Anecdotes.

[FLOMBIE]

A tiny minority of criminals have access to guns and those who do will not readily pass them on since the penalties are so sever for doing so.

The gun laws demonstrably work in cutting violent deaths and armed robbery.

Br Cornelius

I can tell you that in Germany, only 0.2% of crimes are committed with a gun. And with robbery being the crime in which guns are used (not as in fired) the most: 5.4%.

[itsnotoutthere]

Quote from The Washington Post on this subject :-

The United States has by far the highest per capita rate of all developed countries. According to data compiled by the United Nations, the United States has four times as many gun-related homicides per capita as do Turkey and Switzerland, which are tied for third. The U.S. gun murder rate is about 20 times the average for all other countries on this chart. That means that Americans are 20 times as likely to be killed by a gun than is someone from another developed country.

[+Hammerclaw]

A tiny minority of criminals have access to guns and those who do will not readily pass them on since the penalties are so sever for doing so.

The gun laws demonstrably work in cutting violent deaths and armed robbery.

Br Cornelius

You're talking nonsense. If you're criminal, you don't care about the law, so that's a bogus argument.

[+Hammerclaw]

So how did that help at Sandy Hook Elementry or Columbine High school?

It didn't. All the teachers were unarmed and had no means to defend their students.

[Guest]

You're talking nonsense. If you're criminal, you don't care about the law, so that's a bogus argument.

Serious career criminals care very deeply about whether they are going down for 1 year or 20 years. They get to be serious career criminals because they can make informed decisions about risk. Passing guns onto amateur criminals will mean that when the amateur is inevitably caught with the gun the professional criminal will still go down for serious time. They are not stupid and the penalties work as a serious deterrent.

If you are caught with an illegal weapon or trading in illegal weapons in the UK you are going to feel the full weight of the law in a way that doesn't apply to a petty thief.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about with regard to the situation within the UK.

Br Cornelius

Edited September 28, 2014 by Guest

[TSS]

You're talking nonsense. If you're criminal, you don't care about the law, so that's a bogus argument.

Oh dear...we are not talking about some moronic little dope dealer here, you'll need to go a bit further up the food chain, then you'll be dealing with people who do what ever it takes to avoid prison, so selling you a gun that no doubt has it's signature on other unsolved crimes, and therefore implicates others, not forgetting risking many years in prison for selling a gun for a hundred quid or so to some numpty who gets caught....career criminals (who are the type that source arms) might not care for the law, but they care about sitting in a 6x8 room for a decade or two..

Serious career criminals care very deeply about whether they are going down for 1 year or 20 years. They get to be serious career criminals because they can make informed decisions about risk. Passing guns onto amateur criminals will mean that when the amateur is inevitably caught with the gun the professional criminal will still go down for serious time. They are not stupid and the penalties work as a serious deterrent.

If you are caught with an illegal weapon in the UK you are going to full the full weight of the law in a way that doesn't apply to a petty thief.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about with regard to the situation within the UK.

Br Cornelius

Yep - pretty much was a I was thinking whilst typing.

[+Hammerclaw]

Quote from The Washington Post on this subject :-

The United States has by far the highest per capita rate of all developed countries. According to data compiled by the United Nations, the United States has four times as many gun-related homicides per capita as do Turkey and Switzerland, which are tied for third. The U.S. gun murder rate is about 20 times the average for all other countries on this chart. That means that Americans are 20 times as likely to be killed by a gun than is someone from another developed country.

So we should disarm with such clear and present danger? I think not.