Why don't we stay out of the Mid East?

[stevewinn]

ISIS is also targeting anyone that happens to be Shiite, Christian, Jewish (anything but Sunni). I suppose that's the fault of the west and the CIA as well?

ISIS have their origins in Iraq 2003. first mistake by the US/Coalition. removing Saddam for weapons of mass destruction that never existed. fault of poor CIA intelligence. the invasion and subsequent removal of Iraqi security after the fall of Saddam leaves a power vacuum. terrorist groups fill the vacuum. including the early shoots of ISIS. but fighting under the banner of Al Qeada in Iraq. remember the beheading vidoes. fast forward during them 10 years ISIS split from Al Qeada in Iraq and are found 500 miles north in Syrian operating in yet another power vacuum left behind thanks to the US involvement in the attempt to remove Assad.

At each step on the evolution of ISIS - US involvement can be seen. first giving them oxygen in Iraq 2003, then arming them in Syria in 2010. and now we find ourself confronted by a terrorist organisation that is large in number, 30,000 according to the CIA (for what its worth) well equipt and financed. ISIS haven't just come out of thin air.

Americas problems are all of its own doing, thanks to a disastrous foriegn policy. inconvenient truths. but no-one wants to acknowledge it, like to just skip over it and keep repeating the same old mistakes.

The end game now is to tackle ISIS, which will eventually lead us all into Syria. If the Arab countries don't come forward with troops - i can see a UN mandate and another US-led coalition invading Syria. and millions of Islamic militants will flock to the region to fight the Westerners, the perfect recruiting sergeant for Islamic terrorist groups and the continued threat of terrorist attacks here at home and abroad and people will still ask why they are attacking us.

[Mr.United_Nations]

Turkey should be sending in 90,000 of its 150,000 regular Soldiers across the border, giving free access to NATO allies in the form of command HQ's and Airfields. But no,The RAF is having to fly from Cyprus, refuel in the air and return to Cyprus. - Where if Turkey was to offer free access to any of its four Airfields on the border, of Syria/Iraq we could have drones identify targets and within minutes planes could be attacking them. But up until now NO. all involved are flying hundreds of miles before we reach Northern Iraq. the USA is flying off its Carrier the George H.W Bush which is floating in the Arabian Gulf. near 300 miles away.

We should be banging on Turkeys door and ask them questions. NATO ally, Future EU member.

Turkey has said yes to allies using their airfields and command centres. Kurds think that it is Turkey secretly funding IS and not intervening in Kobane

Edited October 7, 2014 by Yes_Man

[Mr.United_Nations]

ISIS have their origins in Iraq 2003. first mistake by the US/Coalition. removing Saddam for weapons of mass destruction that never existed. fault of poor CIA intelligence. the invasion and subsequent removal of Iraqi security after the fall of Saddam leaves a power vacuum. terrorist groups fill the vacuum. including the early shoots of ISIS. but fighting under the banner of Al Qeada in Iraq. remember the beheading vidoes. fast forward during them 10 years ISIS split from Al Qeada in Iraq and are found 500 miles north in Syrian operating in yet another power vacuum left behind thanks to the US involvement in the attempt to remove Assad.

At each step on the evolution of ISIS - US involvement can be seen. first giving them oxygen in Iraq 2003, then arming them in Syria in 2010. and now we find ourself confronted by a terrorist organisation that is large in number, 30,000 according to the CIA (for what its worth) well equipt and financed. ISIS haven't just come out of thin air.

Americas problems are all of its own doing, thanks to a disastrous foriegn policy. inconvenient truths. but no-one wants to acknowledge it, like to just skip over it and keep repeating the same old mistakes.

The end game now is to tackle ISIS, which will eventually lead us all into Syria. If the Arab countries don't come forward with troops - i can see a UN mandate and another US-led coalition invading Syria. and millions of Islamic militants will flock to the region to fight the Westerners, the perfect recruiting sergeant for Islamic terrorist groups and the continued threat of terrorist attacks here at home and abroad and people will still ask why they are attacking us.

IS had origins back in 1999 when it was a different name

"It originated as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad in 1999"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant

[stevewinn]

It appears ISIS's neighbors don't like them very much either. Here are the locals who've lined up against them:

Turkey (this morning)

UAE

Saudi Arabia

Jordan

Bahrain

Qatar

All dictatorships, and belong to the same club as Assad, the very people we despise, interesting list which contains three countries who supported ISIS. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey. It will be interesting to see what exactly they contribute. until such time, throw that list in the bin.

[stevewinn]

Turkey has said yes to allies using their airfields and command centres. Kurds think that it is Turkey secretly funding IS and not intervening in Kobane

Could you post a link from a creditable source i know they (turkey) voted in acting against ISIS, but wouldn't go as far as allowing use of Airfields.

IS had origins back in 1999 when it was a different name

"It originated as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad in 1999"

http://en.wikipedia...._and_the_Levant

Having read your link, it backs up what i wrote. and im actually quie pleased i got so much right. thanks for posting.

[libstaK]

Australian involvement in targeting ISIS. what interest is that of Australia. So its more of a national interest to you 7,500nm miles away meanwhile in the same region on the border of Iraq and Syria the regional powers do nothing. that is the question im asking you. when are you going to start asking the question why is the west coming from thousands of miles away risking the wrath of Islamic terrorist and the lives of our military while those in the region do nothing. its Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Jordan, United Arab Emirates that should be taking the lead. Why aren't they.

That's not what you originally asked - you asked about Syria. Isis is a different matter and I have more than a dozen posts clarifying what that means to me. What it means to the Australian Government is that they have a majority support from the public in taking action against what our Prime Minister has referred to as a death cult. They are murdering thugs and regardless of how the middle eastern nations choose to deal with them, over 40 nations on this earth have decided that they will not stand by and watch murdering thugs gain power and control over nations in the middle east or anywhere.

I am not going to answer about what the middle eastern nations are and are not doing - you want answers to that ask them. Asking someone else why they aren't doing something about evil as an excuse for not doing something ourselves is the act of a coward.

[stevewinn]

That's not what you originally asked - you asked about Syria. Isis is a different matter and I have more than a dozen posts clarifying what that means to me. What it means to the Australian Government is that they have a majority support from the public in taking action against what our Prime Minister has referred to as a death cult. They are murdering thugs and regardless of how the middle eastern nations choose to deal with them, over 40 nations on this earth have decided that they will not stand by and watch murdering thugs gain power and control over nations in the middle east or anywhere.

I am not going to answer about what the middle eastern nations are and are not doing - you want answers to that ask them. Asking someone else why they aren't doing something about evil as an excuse for not doing something ourselves is the act of a coward.

So, you agree tackling ISIS is worth putting your National Security and your Nationals abroad at risk, because 4 people have had their heads cut off. word of advice don't look further than the end of your nose - Don't look at world news otherwise with your train of thought you'll be committing Australian forces all over the globe.

I forgot to ask whats the reference to the "over 40 Nations" on earth Deciding to not standby and what murderous thugs gain power over other Nations, interested in this reply and what your referring to.

Edited October 7, 2014 by stevewinn

[libstaK]

So, you agree tackling ISIS is worth putting your National Security and your Nationals abroad at risk, because 4 people have had their heads cut off. word of advice don't look further than the end of your nose - Don't look at world news otherwise with your train of thought you'll be committing Australian forces all over the globe.

Don't be ridiculous, these are extremists of the worst possible kind and the decision was made to deal with them. There have been extremists running around for many a year but the decision is always made on the individual merits of each group and has not always been the same.

But I am not going into a discussion about the "whole world and it's various extremists" with you, this is about ISIS, stick to the topic.

There is overwhelming support internationally for them to be dealt with. BTW you asked why Saudi Arabia wasn't doing something? They are participating with the UAE and the U.S.A. in airstrikes near Kobani.

http://edition.cnn.c....html?hpt=hp_t1

excerpt:

Elsewhere in Syria, two strikes west of al-Hasakah hit multiple ISIS buildings, one near Deir Ezzor struck an ISIS staging area and IED production facility, and one southwest of Rabiyah struck a small group of ISIS fighters.

The United States, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE all participated in the strikes, Central Command said.

Dutch forces join in

In Iraq, Dutch forces participated for the first time in airstrikes against ISIS.

Dutch forces dropped three bombs on armed ISIS vehicles that were shooting at Kurdish Peshmerga forces in northern Iraq on Tuesday morning, the Dutch Defense Ministry said in a statement. The vehicles were destroyed, and ISIS fighters may have been killed, the ministry said.

U.S. Central Command said Belgium participated in overnight airstrikes in Iraq as well.

So in one group of strikes we have:

UAE

Saudi Arabia

U.S.A.

Holand

Belgium

Edited October 7, 2014 by libstaK

[libstaK]

I forgot to ask whats the reference to the "over 40 Nations" on earth Deciding to not standby and what murderous thugs gain power over other Nations, interested in this reply and what your referring to.

Really? This is old news - have any of your responses here been based on up to date information at all?

Here is one link:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/10/06/world/meast/isis-coalition-nations/index.html?hpt=hp_t5

This linky right here says we are up to 62 groups and nations

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/09/26/mobilizing-the-world-up-to-62-nations-and-groups-have-joined-coalition-against-isis/

and this one is specifically advising of Arab nations who are committed to eliminating ISIS

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/arab-nations-committed-to-u-s-campaign-against-isis-1.2763622

Allies willing to fight ISIS in Iraq, Syria

The meeting ended with Saudi Arabia, other Gulf states, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon pledging in a joint statement "to do their share" to stand against terrorism. They promised steps including stopping fighters and funding, repudiating ISIS's ideology, providing humanitarian aid and "as appropriate, joining in the many aspects of a co-ordinated military campaign."

They also agreed to boost support for the new Iraqi government as it tries to unite its citizens in the fight against the militants, and to devise strategies to "destroy" the group "wherever it is, including in both Iraq and Syria."

[stevewinn]

We are all aware of the involvement of Saudi Arabia and UAE in the air strikes. the token gesture of a one off event, for the US to hold up as the great Arab Coalition, to garner support which people have fallen fall. Its all to late now. As for the 40'odd - who've "expressed support" lets see what they actually do. its alright saying one thing in at the UN, but tangible action is what's needed.

Im just disappointed the United Kingdom as joined in Air Strikes over Iraq. i hope once the action moves to Syria for which inevitably will. the British Prime minister goes before parliament to get approval for (mission creep) and at this point i hope we vote it down. because its getting ridiculous now. 2001 Afghanistan, 2003 Iraq. 2011 Libya, 2014 (USA) Syria 2014 Iraq. maybe next time people wont allow our politicians to repeat the same mistakes and actually question their actions. because as it stands we're dealing with the Law of Unintended consequences, and our actions haven't made us any safer or improved our standing in the world.

We are repeating the same mistakes and it will end in tears mark my words'

Edited October 7, 2014 by stevewinn

[Lilly]

Let's see here, trying to stop ISIS "will end in tears". Ok then, what will allowing ISIS to continue achieve? ISIS absolutely will continue to murder, it will gain in numbers and strength, it will conquer more and more territory, it will control more assets and become a much, much larger problem.

Frankly, I'll take the tears if it means stopping this monster before it becomes any larger.

[Lilly]

Something I've been wondering: If all western nations just up and leave the ME does this mean that ISIS will stop it's murderous rampage against all other religious groups? Will beheadings and their plans for terrorism abroad will be halted? Will ISIS respect the other soverign nations of the area? Basically, will ISIS then put aside their holy war and become a nice peaceful organization?

Awhile back I think it was Dr Cornelius who said that we weren't "the good guys" and my response was that nobody is "the good guys". We're all just people doing what people do...there's no black hats (bad guys) and white hats (good guys). Basically, we're all just shades of grey and in most cases we're forced to make choices that aren't totally wonderful. That said, were ISIS to wear a hat it would be so dark a shade of grey that it would be indistinguishable from black. I have no problem coming together with other grey hats to get rid of them, no problem at all.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Lilly
typo

[+and-then]

Let's see here, trying to stop ISIS "will end in tears". Ok then, what will allowing ISIS to continue achieve? ISIS absolutely will continue to murder, it will gain in numbers and strength, it will conquer more and more territory, it will control more assets and become a much, much larger problem.

Frankly, I'll take the tears if it means stopping this monster before it becomes any larger.

At THIS point that is the only sane response. I'll say it again - recriminations in lieu of action against this group is a non starter. Arguing over who started the fire that is burning your house to the ground, rather than calling a fire department is insane. First things first - THEN, absolutely, dissect why it happened and fix THAT idiocy as well. There certainly is plenty of blame to go around.

[stevewinn]

Well it seems the consensus on here is for the West to continually get caught up in foreign adventures in the middle east to the detriment. If that is the stance then people better be prepared for the consequences of our actions in the form of future threats of Islamic terrorism actively targeting us at home and abroad, and we risked all this for what?

no matter how good the plan, its good to stop and question the results.

Before and After our involvement.

Afghanistan - disaster terrorist existed before and continue to do so.

Iraq - disaster no terrorist existed removed Saddam - result there are now terrorists, and military operation's are still on going air strikes and arming the Kurds.

Libya - disaster no terrorists existed removed Gaddafi - result there are now terrorist groups, which have spilled over borders: see French war in Mail, CAR.)

Syria - disaster. no terrorist existed attempt to remove Assad, - result civil war, country awash with terrorist groups. USA bombing from the air.

Seriously - combined civilian deaths from these conflicts 1.3 Million people dead. and that's non-combatants.

Yes lets keep going. pick out the next country we'll mess up. because were doing oh so well dropping Democracy in the form of 1000lb bombs from a thousand feet. seriously pick the next **** up.

[Sakari]

Why dont we stay out of the Middle east?

I agree, to a point.

Attack us, we attack you.....9/11

I agreed with that 100%

Iraq- I agreed, only for how Sadahm mass killed people.

ISIS - the entire world should be helping stop them.

When people start slaughtering thousands, others need to step in.

Sorry, the US did not start those groups, or kind of people.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Sakari

[Sakari]

If that is the stance then people better be prepared for the consequences of our actions in the form of future threats of Islamic terrorism actively targeting us at home and abroad, and we risked all this for what?

So, a street gang in your Country ( easier to say the US ) is growing. It is killing innocent people. In the past, when the police stepped in, they stopped for a bit, but grew in numbers and attacked more people.

You are saying, let them do their thing, sure they are killing people, but hey, they are not hurting me if we let them do what they do.

Let them be, if we make them mad, they might attack us.

Wow

I wonder if your stance would be different if it were your family and friends being mass slaughtered, and losing homes and jobs, and lifestyle....By force.

[stevewinn]

So, a street gang in your Country ( easier to say the US ) is growing. It is killing innocent people. In the past, when the police stepped in, they stopped for a bit, but grew in numbers and attacked more people.

You are saying, let them do their thing, sure they are killing people, but hey, they are not hurting me if we let them do what they do.

Let them be, if we make them mad, they might attack us.

Wow

I wonder if your stance would be different if it were your family and friends being mass slaughtered, and losing homes and jobs, and lifestyle....By force.

Well, using your analogy of a gang and neighbourhood. - trouble is in the Syrian neighbourhood is so far away from my neighbourhood its not even in the next state its in a different country............

Its the equivalent of you asking me to intervene in a problem all the way over there in Arizona. i would look at your problem and think, i don't agree with the actions of the gang over there in Arizona. --- but before i get involved in something i dont understand, in apart of the world i have no cultural ties with or religious ties, and just by my sheer presence there it could possibly lead to "Arizonians" coming to my neighbourhood to mess up my lawn, (Backyard)

The Question i would ask is, why are your neighbours not helping, who are better placed, they live in the same street, share the same cultural values, same religion. - and have been financing the said gang who is now running a mock. - If your neighbours in the street wont help, and those in the neighbouring streets on the next few blocks surrounding wont help..........

.........................then Question again is, - will the surrounding States not help. and if not why not? why wont California get involved or Nevada, Utah, New Mexico. all these states refuse to stop the gang. and they have the most to loose because they have borders with Arizona, but you want me to cross 6,000 miles of Atlantic Ocean risk life and limb while California, Nevada, Utah, and New Mexico all sit on their butts. kicking back watching the super bowl, while Chuck Norris Stevewinn with my neighbourhood "crew" turn up and take on the Arizona neighbourhood gang. You'd have to be mad absolutely mad to get involved. but its what where doing in the middle east.

[Sakari]

The Question i would ask is, why are your neighbours not helping

Exactly what the US and other Countries did, or should be doing now for what I posted.

We are the neighbors, and it is in our backyard.

My analogy of gangs was obvious I thought......

If Arizona ( only been here a year ) had huge fires, other States across the Country would help put them out.

[stevewinn]

Exactly what the US and other Countries did, or should be doing now for what I posted.

We are the neighbors, and it is in our backyard.

My analogy of gangs was obvious I thought......

If Arizona ( only been here a year ) had huge fires, other States across the Country would help put them out.

the middle East is your backyard, have the continents moved or something? Well i can tell you now the Middle East is not Americas back yard, your over 8000n miles away. the Backyard of Iraq and Syria is the surrounding Moslem and Arab countries. - Why hasn't Iraq called a meeting of the Arab league and asked for help. why hasn't the Arab league members joined forces and deployed their own military? You have Turkey biggest land army in middle east, Second biggest in NATO. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states all have powerful Air forces. its these countries who should be forming the "great Coalition" and fighting ISIS both on the ground and in the Air. But no, why hasn't it happened. why have the West had to intervene where their own Arab neighbours refuse to and that is the crux of the matter.

[Michelle]

Steve, since we may be at least partially responsible for this mess, do you think we should have an obligation to try and rectify it?

Edited October 7, 2014 by Michelle

[acidhead]

Let's see here, trying to stop ISIS "will end in tears". Ok then, what will allowing ISIS to continue achieve? ISIS absolutely will continue to murder, it will gain in numbers and strength, it will conquer more and more territory, it will control more assets and become a much, much larger problem.

Frankly, I'll take the tears if it means stopping this monster before it becomes any larger.

Youll take the tears? Youll send your children to this battle? Have you completely forgotten the 5000 body bags returned to the USA fromIraq? Remember the daily protests outside the White House leading up to the 2008 election? Remember when Obama came onto the scene and everybody around the world welcomed him because he wasnt BUSH? You remember thise times?

And now you say youll take the tears?

My god. Whats happened to common sense.

[Lilly]

I wonder if your stance would be different if it were your family and friends being mass slaughtered, and losing homes and jobs, and lifestyle....By force.

Or if you were from someplace where terrorism has taken place.

When I was young and my parents lived on Long Island I used to take Amtrack down from upstate to visit them. I watched as the Twin Towers went upward bit by bit, it was all very impressive. Years later, the day the planes hit my college roomate's husband happened to be in Manhatten on business and he saw the second plane hit. He also witnessed as people jumped to their deaths. Fortunately he had moved back before the collapse (but he did see it from a distance).

The year before the Boston Bombing both my kids were among the spectators. Thankfully neither one was at the Marathon the following year. My neighbor's son was in the race that year though (Boston University student). I saw the terror and horror on her face (her son was fine thankfully). My other friend's hubby works (anesthesia) at Mass General Hospital...what he dealt with that day was pretty awful. He says it was like a war zone with the blown off limbs and traumatic injuries.

When this *stuff* is up close and personal your opinion tends to be a bit different.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Lilly
addition

[Lilly]

Youll take the tears? Youll send your children to this battle?

My nephew is Marine EOD (Explosive Ordinance Division). See my prior post above and you may understand a bit more.

I just want to add...this stuff isn't like "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas"...terrorism can easily show up at your door.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Lilly
addition

[Sakari]

the middle East is your backyard, have the continents moved or something? Well i can tell you now the Middle East is not Americas back yard, your over 8000n miles away. the Backyard of Iraq and Syria is the surrounding Moslem and Arab countries. - Why hasn't Iraq called a meeting of the Arab league and asked for help. why hasn't the Arab league members joined forces and deployed their own military? You have Turkey biggest land army in middle east, Second biggest in NATO. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states all have powerful Air forces. its these countries who should be forming the "great Coalition" and fighting ISIS both on the ground and in the Air. But no, why hasn't it happened. why have the West had to intervene where their own Arab neighbours refuse to and that is the crux of the matter.

As in the world, we are all in our backyards. Economy, health, destruction, polution, etc.

Sorry, if a group is mass killing, it is all of its neighbors responsibility to help stop it.

A commanding oficer today, knowing his town is next, and almost taken over, knows mass killings are next for the people there.

he said :

" where is the rest of the world? "

The Earth is OUR responsibility when it comes to certain things.

Should the US have interfered with Hitler, or just let you guys figure it out?

[stevewinn]

Steve, since we may be at least partially responsible for this mess, do you think we should have an obligation to try and rectify it?

we are more than partially responsible, its a catalogue of disasters. dating back to the Iraq war 2003. first mistake invading, second mistake, disbanding the Iraqi police and armed forces. which left us with 100,000 coalition troops to act as part time soldiers and Police in a vast country. terrorist moved in and look at the mess. with public pressure back home and politicians facing elections the politicians bowed to public pressure and left Iraq before the job was complete. as evident by the performance of the Iraqi army, who in the north of the country done a runner leaving ISIS to capture all that new American military equipment. we see them parading around on.

While all this is going on with the backdrop of the Arab spring, and with no room left on our plate, we stupidly decide now would be a good time to remove Assad in Syria. and we end up backing the people we've been fighting for the last 13 years. - you couldn't make it up.

Every single time we step foot in the middle east we raise fearless warriors in our wake, for the Jihadist war. we have made a mess of everything, stupid foreign policy by stupid leaders - George W Bush, case-in-point. We shouldn't have got involved in Syria 2010. If we hadn't gotten involved then no ISIS. Assad would have quash the up rising.

Okay long winded reply, but in answer to the question should we obliged to rectify it, my answer is NO. because we've got ourselves into a situation akin to a plate spinner. busily trying to keep each plate spinning, and the more we struggle the more plates we're asking to be added. at some point we'll be unable to keep - the ever increasing number of plates spinning, I say let a few plates hit the floor and smash. and keep only those you can handle spinning, otherwise were going to reach a situation whereby we loose all control and every plate smashes on the floor. which would be a complete disaster. far greater than today. and by that i mean - Next Stop Western boots on the ground in Syria.