Catalonia vote:

[Mr.United_Nations]

Spain would probably place an import/export ban

[acute]

11 hours ago, LV-426 said:

Catalan officials later said 90% of those who voted backed independence in Sunday's vote. The turnout was 42.3%."

Statistically, this is not a clear endorsement of independence, if the vast majority of 'No' voters decided not to vote, and it was mainly passionate 'Yes' voters that risked attending the Polling Stations.

[Space Commander Travis]

On 9/26/2017 at 11:59 AM, stevewinn said:

The Referendum was not agreed or granted by the Spanish government so the actions of the authorities in Catalonia are deemed illegal. including the spending of public money to organise the vote. - If the vote was to go ahead regardless of the outcome the result wouldn't be accepted by central Government or recognised the world over - What would then happen? would Catalonia declare a de facto independence?

 

Suppose the EU had decided exactly the same thing about the Brexit vote; would you have said "oh well, Brussels has deemed it illegal so we'll just have to accept it and not make a fuss"?

Edited October 2, 2017 by Manfred von Dreidecker

[Space Commander Travis]

On 10/1/2017 at 3:40 PM, RabidMongoose said:

In UK we gave the Scots a vote. Shouldn't Spain be doing the same for Catalonia?

With things turning violent there is the possibility of Spain having a new civil war. Although I still think thats a long way off from where things are at the moment.

yes, exactly. We didn't see Dave Cameron threaten to send the riot police armed with machine guns to seize Holyrood and drag SNP members out into paddy wagons, did we. Nor, come to that, did Brussels try to send in the EU Army to seize polling stations to prevent the Brexit vote. Does, what's his name, Rajoy not have any conception how dictatorial he's making himself look here?

[Space Commander Travis]

 

2 hours ago, acute said:

 

 

2 hours ago, acute said:

Statistically, this is not a clear endorsement of independence, if the vast majority of 'No' voters decided not to vote, and it was mainly passionate 'Yes' voters that risked attending the Polling Stations.

You could say exactly the same about the Brexit vote, and for any general election since I don't know when was the last time there was a definite majority of the eligible population. Ideally I suppose that should be the threshold, but as long as voting is voluntary that's going to be how it's going to be, isn't it. And that's why, what's his name, Rajoy, has made himself look so foolish; if he'd let it be he could have said "well, 90% of 42% is not quite a majority of the eligible population, is it?" And probably if he had allowed it to happen the Remain vote would have been considerably higher, so he'd have been vindicated. Now he's making himself look tyrannical and vindictive.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Manfred von Dreidecker

[stevewinn]

2 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Suppose the EU had decided exactly the same thing about the Brexit vote; would you have said "oh well, Brussels has deemed it illegal so we'll just have to accept it and not make a fuss"?

how can you twist what i said about Spain to have any resemblance to the UK's Referendum on our membership of the EU. The UK Parliament voted for the Brexit Referendum so everything was official and legal. just like the Scottish referendum.

Now, Catalonia on the other hand are out of order holding a referendum that wasn't officially sanctioned by the central government in Madrid. - there is a right way and a wrong way and Catalonia have gone about it the wrong way in the same way Madrid have gone the wrong way in their reaction and actions on polling day.

Both sides had responsibilities and both have failed.  Its a complete mess, a dogs dinner. - what happens now? civil unrest, civil war, or freedom fighter terrorist organisation is born. whose next?, the Basque region, Valencia?

If we are to accept what's happened in Catalonia then we are setting a very dangerous precedent, Autonomous regions of Spain Spain fragmented is good for no-one. and least of all the other countries in the EU who have their own separatists movements. =

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by stevewinn

[stevewinn]

Dont know what happened there.

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by stevewinn

[Space Commander Travis]

Even though the Spanish Prime Minister may have legality on his side, as soon as the first riot police officer put his hands on the first woman and dragged her away from the front of a polling station in Barcelona, he lost the moral argument, transforming the Spanish constitution from a shield guaranteeing the protection of democracy and human rights into a sword being wielded to justify their suppression.

Order Prevails in Barcelona as Democracy Dies in Madrid

[Blaid Drwg]

16 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

 

Both sides had responsibilities and both have failed.  Its a complete mess, a dogs dinner. - what happens now? civil unrest, civil war, or freedom fighter terrorist organisation is born. whose next?, the Basque region, Valencia?

 

 

 

 

 

The Basque region already held all sorts of actions to claim independence and even had a terrorirst movement in the form off the ETA.

[Space Commander Travis]

16 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

 

If we are to accept what's happened in Catalonia then we are setting a very dangerous precedent, Autonomous regions of Spain Spain fragmented is good for no-one. and least of all the other countries in the EU who have their own separatists movements. =

 

 

 

 

 

Why are you so against independence movements breaking away from artificially created states when you're so pro the UK doing the same from the EU? I've often thought that Bavaria might very well be the first to break away from Bismarck's artificial German state. Brittany too, obviously, from France, of which it's only ever grudgingly thought of itself as part. And how about Cornwall joining a new Breton state. Very interesting times might be ahead all round.

[Space Commander Travis]

* Interesting to reflect how, apart from Karelia, which has always been partly Finnish, and those tiny little would-be breakaway republics around the Urals, how homogenous Russia has always been, isn't it. 

[Blaid Drwg]

If there is a vote in spain for the goverment do the Spanish have to vote? Or is it like in some country's if you dont want to vote you dont have to?

[stevewinn]

3 minutes ago, Blaid Drwg said:

The Basque region already held all sorts of actions to claim independence and even had a terrorirst movement in the form off the ETA.

yea, well worth reminding people of that, especially ETA. Could History repeat itself with Catalonia in the future?

2 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Why are you so against independence movements breaking away from artificially created states when you're so pro the UK doing the same from the EU? I've often thought that Bavaria might very well be the first to break away from Bismarck's artificial German state. Brittany too, obviously, from France, of which it's only ever grudgingly thought of itself as part. And how about Cornwall joining a new Breton state. Very interesting times might be ahead all round.

The difference is the EU is not a country its a political project, an institution. not a sovereign state.

When it comes to regions within a country im against them breaking up and all the problems that will eventually follow in the aftermath of the revolutions, Europe would be left in disarray and disorganised after a century of stability. - i don't no, you'd have to go as far back as to??? maybe the congress of Vienna and the huge changes made then to the map of Europe to find such upheaval. we don't want a fragmented Europe between a potential 50 (New) independent regions. on top of the 50 countries which already make-up Europe.

On the other hand if its a country within a country for example Scotland in the UK, As the United Kingdom is a sovereign state. (EU isnt) then im for allowing the free will of the people in regard to independence and their right to express that desire through the ballot box, that's why i was in agreement for the Scottish referendum to be held, but hoped they'd vote to remain part of the UK.

 

 

[Blaid Drwg]

22 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

yea, well worth reminding people of that, especially ETA. Could History repeat itself with Catalonia in the future?

The difference is the EU is not a country its a political project, an institution. not a sovereign state.

When it comes to regions within a country im against them breaking up and all the problems that will eventually follow in the aftermath of the revolutions, Europe would be left in disarray and disorganised after a century of stability. - i don't no, you'd have to go as far back as to??? maybe the congress of Vienna and the huge changes made then to the map of Europe to find such upheaval. we don't want a fragmented Europe between a potential 50 (New) independent regions. on top of the 50 countries which already make-up Europe.

On the other hand if its a country within a country for example Scotland in the UK, As the United Kingdom is a sovereign state. (EU isnt) then im for allowing the free will of the people in regard to independence and their right to express that desire through the ballot box, that's why i was in agreement for the Scottish referendum to be held, but hoped they'd vote to remain part of the UK.

 

 

And to wich century of stablility are you referring? Not the last century since there was no stability what so ever, you can not even point towards the mass media since even tthey never spoke off stability in Europe. Or are you forgetting the independence of nations like Bosnia Herzigovina, Kosovo, Tsjech Republic and Slowakia, Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia. And these all between 1990 and 2006. Besides that the financial crisis we saw in Europe the last few years in Spain and Greece and also even Ireland that got hit by this bank crisis. 

Sorry realy makes me wonder to wich stability you refer in the last century.

Edit: Forgot even to mention 100 years back in time we still where in WW 1 and WW 2 still had to come.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Blaid Drwg

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Why are you so against independence movements breaking away from artificially created states when you're so pro the UK doing the same from the EU? I've often thought that Bavaria might very well be the first to break away from Bismarck's artificial German state. Brittany too, obviously, from France, of which it's only ever grudgingly thought of itself as part. And how about Cornwall joining a new Breton state. Very interesting times might be ahead all round.

The sad thing is if European countries federalised themselves properly then independence votes are less likely to be successful. As and advocator of Democracy and Republics and Constitutional Monarchies I think all regions should get independence votes if thats what a large chunk of their populations want. And its up to governments to keep their realms together not via police batons as in Catalonia but by decentralising so the people and businesses in each area are better represented.

[RoofGardener]

21 minutes ago, Blaid Drwg said:

And to wich century of stablility are you referring? Not the last century since there was no stability what so ever, you can not even point towards the mass media since even tthey never spoke off stability in Europe. Or are you forgetting the independence of nations like Bosnia Herzigovina, Kosovo, Tsjech Republic and Slowakia, Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia. And these all between 1990 and 2006. Besides that the financial crisis we saw in Europe the last few years in Spain and Greece and also even Ireland that got hit by this bank crisis. 

Sorry realy makes me wonder to wich stability you refer in the last century.

No... sorry... I disagree. 

Europe has been a model of Stability on the planet for the last 200 years. 

Yes... it has had turmoil.....two "world" wars (started in Europe) apart from anything else...  but... it has been a beacon of social, cultural  and technological development throught that period. 

How many people want to emmigrate to China, or the nations of Africa, or the "Islamic" nations of the middle east ? the only desirable "target" nations are European, or European creations like Canada, Australia, or - dare I say it - the USA ? 

What benchmark of stability will you accept ?  

Edited October 2, 2017 by RoofGardener

[stevewinn]

22 minutes ago, Blaid Drwg said:

And to wich century of stablility are you referring? Not the last century since there was no stability what so ever, you can not even point towards the mass media since even tthey never spoke off stability in Europe. Or are you forgetting the independence of nations like Bosnia Herzigovina, Kosovo, Tsjech Republic and Slowakia, Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia. And these all between 1990 and 2006. Besides that the financial crisis we saw in Europe the last few years in Spain and Greece and also even Ireland that got hit by this bank crisis. 

Sorry realy makes me wonder to wich stability you refer in the last century.

I was referring to the 20th i did qualify this by stating you'd probably have to go as far back as the congress of Vienna for such upheaval. - if all the separatist regions declared independence and challenged the order of Europe. but if you take stability literally rather than in the same context as say peace during Pax Britannica or Pax Americana then you will probably never be able to point to a single period of stability with any relevance to today.

(i did throw a question mark in there for someone to offer an alternative period to compare)

Edited October 2, 2017 by stevewinn

[Blaid Drwg]

8 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

No... sorry... I disagree. 

Europe has been a model of Stability on the planet for the last 200 years. 

Yes... it has had turmoil.....two "world" wars (started in Europe) apart from anything else...  but... it has been a beacon of social, cultural  and technological development throught that period. 

How many people want to emmigrate to China, or the nations of Africa, or the "Islamic" nations of the middle east ? the only desirable "target" nations are European, or European creations like Canada, Australia, or - dare I say it - the USA ? 

What benchmark of stability will you accept ?  

Lol European creations like Canada, Australia or you dare to say USA. 

Not one of these you mention are in any way European creations. You could argue about USA but than the other way arround I would say since Europe is more and more developing towards a institute that has an American system and somehow I actualy hope this will be stopped and reversed because I do not believe this is a situation we are willing to evolve to.  

Do you actualy have figures on how many people immigrate towards China? People are coming as refugees of political, economical or war reasons towards Europe yes but than again look at the way that is dealth with it (wich is a whole other discussion) in comparisant with the USA for instance. The one thing I will say about it in here is because of where Europe is located for people out of Africa for instance Europe is the closest by who could give a solution for there problems in a term of short time or even long term.

[Blaid Drwg]

12 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

I was referring to the 20th i did qualify this by stating you'd probably have to go as far back as the congress of Vienna for such upheaval. - if all the separatist regions declared independence and challenged the order of Europe. but if you take stability literally rather than in the same context as say peace during Pax Britannica or Pax Americana then you will probably never be able to point to a single period of stability with any relevance to today.

(i did throw a question mark in there for someone to offer an alternative period to compare)

Those turmoils did had there effect on many different aspects in the European institute as we now know and yes we had periods of stability but those predate before there was even formed a unified Europe as we know currently. The situations in other regions off the world like we see now in Syria, Iraq and even Turkey makes that we have more refugees coming to our shores to find some solution to there problem but the numbers of refugees are skyrocketing so high that we hardly can handle them wich in turn will give and already are giving problems within our European borders. This could be handled and there will be a point where soluttions will be given towards this problem but for that to happen we have to get the elephant out off the room and the elephant in this case is shamely enough this unified institution called Europe.

[RoofGardener]

Hmm... OK.. However, when it comes to immigrants, I would suggest that "the problem" is that Western Europe is a highly stable, successful, and wealthy region. And THAT is why people try and emmigrate to it - mostly illegally. As opposed to - say - more local areas such as Saudi or Yemen or .. well... China or Iran or whatever. 

However.. how does that relate to Catelonia ?  

[Blaid Drwg]

5 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmm... OK.. However, when it comes to immigrants, I would suggest that "the problem" is that Western Europe is a highly stable, successful, and wealthy region. And THAT is why people try and emmigrate to it - mostly illegally. As opposed to - say - more local areas such as Saudi or Yemen or .. well... China or Iran or whatever. 

However.. how does that relate to Catelonia ?  

You refer to western Europe and forgetting the eastern part for some reason? 

That Europe is a wealthy region is true but I would not overestimate it wich is the case actualy.  It relates to Catelonia as all eyes in every region where there is a organisation in a political or any other way that wants to achieve independency is looking towards what happens over there. If Catelonia manages to become a sovereign independent state you can be sure that movements like the Basque region or the Flemish region will see there chances to do they same thing and pick up any means to achieve there goal some trough political some through other means whatever they find nescasery to achieve there ultimate goal and that is wich Stevewinn already stated a very dangerous precedent.

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

 

16 minutes ago, Blaid Drwg said:

You refer to western Europe and forgetting the eastern part for some reason? 

That Europe is a wealthy region is true but I would not overestimate it wich is the case actualy.  It relates to Catelonia as all eyes in every region where there is a organisation in a political or any other way that wants to achieve independency is looking towards what happens over there. If Catelonia manages to become a sovereign independent state you can be sure that movements like the Basque region or the Flemish region will see there chances to do they same thing and pick up any means to achieve there goal some trough political some through other means whatever they find nescasery to achieve there ultimate goal and that is wich Stevewinn already stated a very dangerous precedent.

11

Why ?

So you're saying then that everyone should sit back with the sheeple and accept the status quo.

[Blaid Drwg]

1 hour ago, A rather obscure Bassoon said:

 

Why ?

So you're saying then that everyone should sit back with the sheeple and accept the status quo.

You ask why and the why is explained in post #46

well ok lets say that Madrid says ok Catalunia can hold a referenderum in wich the people of the region can vote to become an independent state and the referendum gives a result in favor off the Catalunian people. Madrid follows the wishes and so it comes that Catalonia is indendent on its own outside of Spain and will ask to join the EU.

This gives a signal to other regions who have the same dream as Catalonia that it is possible and thus will organisations persue this. I will take the example off the Flemish region because this is the most known for me. In Flanders wich is the biggest part of the Royal Kingdom Belgium wich is divided in 4 sections. The Flemish region the region Wallonia (they speak French, the region east wich is German and the smallest part and the Capital region Brussels where French and Flemish is spoken. Since as long as we know there are people who actualy have the wish to start up the Republic Flanders even from the days that the Flemish fought off the French in the south and Holland in the north where in the end Belgium got there independency in 1834 in got them self seperated from Holland.

First off all Belgium was founded but this was not the actual idea because the idea was to form a nation called Flanders and would hold only the Flemish part without Wallonia where the first idea was that Wallonia had to become a part of France but this was not happening it was Belgium or nothing and so they formed Belgium in the hope later on to get rid of Wallonia and go on as a Republic Flanders. Several movements in form off political and non political still fight for this cause in the form off the VB and the NVA (political party's) last named is at the moment the leading political party. On the other hand we had the VMO wich was a splintergroup outside of the politic but the 3 had the same ideas about splitting up the country. Problem is Brussels in origin a city in Flanders but now a capital region with districts on both off the lingiustic border that are a part off the city. Flanders wont go seperate without Brussels because Brussels is with Zeebrugge and Antwerp the most important places in the nation economicly seen. Zeebrugge for its harbour, Antwerp for Diamonds and harbour and Brussels because it is the home of lots of company's and is a central city and crosroad in Europe. The plan was to get more and more autonomy to Flanders to make a transit happen more smoothly with the intent te become realy independent in 2025 at the latest. But Wallonia does not want to get out off Belgium cuz there income comes from Flanders and even get money from them to be able to survive economicly since most off Wallonia is pure nature and here and there some industry wich is actualy way over its top and already for years is decaying and already dying some city's at the south side of the linguistic border are already known as ghos city's. Believe me in the end if everything is persued like planned by those who want to become independent this will not be done purely on politics and peacefull negotiations.

So before Catalonia realy wants to step in to independancy they should realy think hard about it and think if there are any other posible solutions for there problem before setting this precedent. For instance an autonome state wich operates on its own with there own goverment but still under Spanish flag. The influence off Madrid would than be nothing more than a symbolic something and you set a whole other precedent while Catalonia does not have to spend money on reforming so much and apply again to join the EU since there already in it. 

[Duke Wellington]

11 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

No... sorry... I disagree. 

Europe has been a model of Stability on the planet for the last 200 years. 

Yes... it has had turmoil.....two "world" wars (started in Europe) apart from anything else...  but... it has been a beacon of social, cultural  and technological development throught that period. 

How many people want to emmigrate to China, or the nations of Africa, or the "Islamic" nations of the middle east ? the only desirable "target" nations are European, or European creations like Canada, Australia, or - dare I say it - the USA ? 

What benchmark of stability will you accept ?  

Its a lot harder to get into the US, they dont let everybody in willy-nilly.

In the UK if you are from the Commonwealth you may as well not even apply to emigrate. Just turn up, they`ll let you in and give you a nice house and car while you`re at it.

[Space Commander Travis]

11 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

No... sorry... I disagree. 

Europe has been a model of Stability on the planet for the last 200 years. 

Yes... it has had turmoil.....two "world" wars (started in Europe) apart from anything else...  but... it has been a beacon of social, cultural  and technological development throught that period. 

  Yes, Adolf Hitler and (if you regard it as Europe) the Bolshevik revolution and Joseph Stalin. Models of stability and the rule of civilization.