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Br Cornelius

Israel attacks American assets: the proof

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Space Commander Travis

Whatever happened in 1967 and whatever the motivations and political machinations of the time were .... it was 47 years ago, I am not sure why we are supposed to be getting all upset about it today, are we expected to bring Israel "to justice" for that event now?

Not sure why we are supposed to be getting all upset about it? an attack on a US warship? That's usually regarded as something worth making a fuss about - unless of course it's one of our allies or those we rather support than the other side, like when the USS Stark was hit by an Iraqi missile in '87 (which is perhaps a similar case of looking the other way and whistling casually, although there it probably was genuinely mistaken identity the Iraqi pilot probably never saw what the ship was). It's the deliberate intent of this that's surely significant. It's just a classic example of how, literally, nothing Israel does is ever criticized by the US Govt, let alone anything stronger, and how, as we see abundantly all over this forum, how there are those people who are literally prepared to turn a blind eye to or try to excuse anything, usually on the grounds that They want to Destroy Israel.

And while they were doing this - to an INTEL ship no less - they were trying to convince WHO, exactly, that it was Egypt? Aircraft and boats flying the Magen David and the ship easily able to send messages for most of that time? Whether it was an accident or the IDF was p***ed because the Arabs w]had Russia's backing and they saw themselves fighting alone I don't know. Clearly they did attack, they admitted it and they paid reparations. US servicemen rarely ever get such treatment during a conflict. Did it suck for them? Of course - they were military. They knew the odds and were there to do a job. And be honest none of you give two ****s about them you just want a club to be Israel with - as if you need one.

I don't really understand you argument, other than that you don't seem to consider it worth making a fuss about, and making a fuss about it is just loony anti-israel ranting. So you do admit that they did deliberately attack a US warship? And you don't consider that worthy of raising an eyebrow? or that anything Israel does is automatically excused because They want to Destroy Israel? Edited by Valdemar the Great
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Space Commander Travis

Didn't the French attack us in morocco in WWII? You want to stir up some issue with them? You have heard of the term "the fog of war"?

When they were under the Vichy government which was allied to Germany. it's hardly quite the same thing.
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Br Cornelius

You also seem to conveniently forget what ELSE was going on geo strategically at the time. Johnson probably knew or was very suspicious of Israel having the bomb by then. Had we reacted by crushing them at that point in time it would have worsened an already bad situation. I fully support the right of the descendants of Jacob to live in that land and yes, if they nuked an American city I would still support them because it would only happen AFTER we had attacked them in some way. They - unlike the ilk you support - would not do such a thing without clear reason. When I heard of a group of Jews celebrating as the 9-11 attacks occurred, I understood immediately why they would. It was the same as Churchill after Pearl Harbor. They (the Brits) finally had an ally to help them in a long fight.

Treason it is then.

Br Cornelius

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Space Commander Travis

You also seem to conveniently forget what ELSE was going on geo strategically at the time. Johnson probably knew or was very suspicious of Israel having the bomb by then. Had we reacted by crushing them at that point in time it would have worsened an already bad situation. I fully support the right of the descendants of Jacob to live in that land and yes, if they nuked an American city I would still support them because it would only happen AFTER we had attacked them in some way. They - unlike the ilk you support - would not do such a thing without clear reason. When I heard of a group of Jews celebrating as the 9-11 attacks occurred, I understood immediately why they would. It was the same as Churchill after Pearl Harbor. They (the Brits) finally had an ally to help them in a long fight.

:huh: So if Israel had nuked a US city if the US had had the temerity to be a bit miffed after Israel attacked one of their warships, you'd have supported the country that nuked the US? have I really read that right? I don't really know there's anything else I can say. I don't think they even have an astonished enough smilie. :mellow:

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Space Commander Travis

So basically, given the content of various responses in this thread, AT, you support Israel more than you would the US, and if you had to take the choice you'd go for Israel? Just to make absolutely clear.

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Br Cornelius

So basically, given the content of various responses in this thread, AT, you support Israel more than you would the US, and if you had to take the choice you'd go for Israel? Just to make absolutely clear.

This sort of thinking is why America takes decisions which favour Israels interests over its own, and why we are justified in saying that the Zionists have hyjacked American national policy. When religious belief engenders treasonous thoughts its not a good advert for that religion.

Br Cornelius

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No Censorship

So basically, given the content of various responses in this thread, AT, you support Israel more than you would the US, and if you had to take the choice you'd go for Israel? Just to make absolutely clear.

I might have some insight into this situation. I'm a real Zionist, and some of us are hesitant to criticize specific Israeli acts and individuals since it tends to be misinterpreted due to past examples of bigotry, real or imagined. It's difficult to leave out politics, as well as religion, when the discussion focuses on Israel. In the real world, you find a lot of overly defensive individuals who are extremely sensitive. Some of this is understandable, and some of this is borderline infuriating when it approaches the blatantly hypocritical. There are anti-Jewish critics, who twist and turn versions of events to fit their world views, but there should be room for honest criticism when the situation warrants it. It's as if America's problems with civil rights, in the 1960s, was deemed a taboo subject because anybody who rightly condemned segregation was labeled an anti-American bigot. This approach prevents honest, open conversations from taking place. People are assumed to be one thing or the other thing, independent of the facts on the ground. If you compliment Israel on its aid to disaster-stricken areas, you're a "Zionist shill". If you think that lobbyists have too much influence in Washington, you're "anti-Semitic". It's as if it's not possible to view things in objective ways.

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Br Cornelius

What is most troubling about this story is the intent of the act. There is no possible reason to assume that it was simple mistake given this account, so the conclusion is that it was a planned act designed to draw America into the conflict with Egypt. As such it highlights the methodology of Israel in achieving its objectives. If it is shown to be capable of deception and black ops then what other acts can be attributed to Israel and its "strategic objectives". The Mossad connections to 9/11 don't seem so fantastical in light of the USS Liberty incident.

Br Cornelius

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Beefers

Well, the US government has kinda always been like: "Here, have some weapons, kill some people, then we will fight you." So if this story was true, the US would have attacked Israel already.

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No Censorship

This sort of thinking is why America takes decisions which favour Israels interests over its own, and why we are justified in saying that the Zionists have hyjacked American national policy. When religious belief engenders treasonous thoughts its not a good advert for that religion.

Br Cornelius

What is your definition of Zionism? It's not a nefarious conspiracy. It's just the view that Israel has a right to *be*, to have the opportunity to peacefully chart its own destiny. It also has the right to defend and protect itself. That's not to say that it's perfect. There have been terroristic acts and war crimes in its historical record. It's definitely not unique in that regard, but it pales in comparison to the misdeeds of its neighbors. IMO, Israel is like an oasis in the Sahara.

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Br Cornelius

Well, the US government has kinda always been like: "Here, have some weapons, kill some people, then we will fight you." So if this story was true, the US would have attacked Israel already.

Perverse logic.

Br Cornelius

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No Censorship

Well, the US government has kinda always been like: "Here, have some weapons, kill some people, then we will fight you." So if this story was true, the US would have attacked Israel already.

The story is true. You can ask the survivors.

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Br Cornelius

What is your definition of Zionism? It's not a nefarious conspiracy. It's just the view that Israel has a right to *be*, to have the opportunity to peacefully chart its own destiny. It also has the right to defend and protect itself. That's not to say that it's perfect. There have been terroristic acts and war crimes in its historical record. It's definitely not unique in that regard, but it pales in comparison to the misdeeds of its neighbors. IMO, Israel is like an oasis in the Sahara.

Zionism is a political movement which created the state of Israel on a foreign land without the consent of the occupied. In order to maintain that state it has carried out an occupation and broken multiple international laws. It has systematically encouraged sympathisers to enter the politics of foreign nations and in so doing has defended itself against any possible retribution for its acts against international law. It is not a legitimate state and everything which has happened in its history follows from this illegitimacy. It uses the cloak of religion to justify its actions and those of a particular religious persuasion obediently excuse any crimes it commits.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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Space Commander Travis

Just in case there was any doubt as to the truth of the incident, here is the version of it on the ever trustworthy and reliable source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

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Br Cornelius

An interesting article showing why support for Israel is wrong in Jewish tradition, worth reading;

Neither the founder of political Zionism nor any of the prime ministers of the Zionist state believed in the divine origin of the Torah nor even in the existence of G-d. All prime ministers were members of a party that opposed religion in principle and that considered the Bible a document of ancient folklore, devoid of any religious meaning. And yet these same Zionists base their claim to the Holy Land on this same Bible, the divine origin of which they deny. At the same time they conveniently forget the Jewish holiday prayer "and for our sins have we been exiled from our land," and ignore the fact that the present exile of the Jewish people is divinely decreed and that the Jewish people are neither commanded nor permitted to conquer or rule the Holy Land before the coming of the Messiah. The Jewish people do, of course, recognize special spiritual ties to that land they call it Eretz Yisrael. Every morning, afternoon, and evening, and night they mention it and Zion and Jerusalem in their prayers, and indeed a Jew does not sit down to a meal without doing likewise. To the Jew, the very soil of the Holy Land is different from that of any other spot on this globe, and wherever he is he turns his face toward Jerusalem during prayers. To live in the Holy Land or even to be buried there was always considered to be of high merit.

.........

In the early stages of the development of modern Zionism, the Mizrachi was founded, an organization of so-called religious Zionists who tried to combine their faith with political Zionism. This led to constant conflict between the dictates of divine law and the demands of Jewish nationalism. Most of the time, the Mizrachi was outvoted at Zionist congresses and served only to give the Zionist movement a false religious aura. Whenever expediency called for it, these "religious" Zionist fellow-travelers have been used by the Zionist government to underpin national claims with "religious" authority.

.........

Unfortunately, thus far, each year sees still further gains in influence by American Zionists. This fact has made possible events and developments that were unthinkable even ten years ago. It takes a lot of courage to be opposed to Zionism in the USA today. It also took a lot of courage during the Second World War to be anti-Fascist in Italy or anti-Nazi in Germany. In the long run Zionism is nothing but a passing aberration in the long history of the Jewish people and of the world.

Let us take faith and hope in the certainty that eventually prejudice, hatred, and injustice will disappear, and that the prophecy will come true that all nations of the world will participate in the pilgrimage to Jerusalem, "For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations."

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/greatgulf.cfm

So Zionism goes against what is written in the Torah, it is an avowedly secular enterprise run by secularists which voids it of any religious legitimacy and certainly prevents in been the forfillment of prophecy.

The only possible conclusion is that Christian Zionism is a gross perversion of the underlying theology of the Jewish faith based on nothing but selfish self interest.

Br Cornelius

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Phaeton80

Quite obviously another crazed Anti Semitically inclined tin foil hat sporting conspiracy nut (© copyright BillOReilly.com), hellbent on demonizing 'G*ds Chosen People' 'defending' their 'G*d given ownership of Canaan'. Any and all (extreme) levels of 'support' towards the present day Israeli State, is purely in the interest o/t United States. As we all know, this Israeli Zionist State deserves our 'unconditional support'.

All those opposing the present mutually beneficiary relations between these two nations blessed by G*d, are probably Holocaust deniers.

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Br Cornelius

US Zionists commit treason on a daily basis.

Br Cornelius

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stevewinn

Whatever happened in 1967 and whatever the motivations and political machinations of the time were .... it was 47 years ago, I am not sure why we are supposed to be getting all upset about it today, are we expected to bring Israel "to justice" for that event now?

Israel paid compensation to all those involved. The full report is available to read on-line, but its detail will be lost on people on here, because it gets in the way of a good conspiracy. people would rather listen to youtube videos or conspiracy websites.

What about when the US shot down an Iranian aeroplane in Iranian airspace, Iran Air Flight 655 killing 290 people. what's the conspiracy around that.

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Br Cornelius

Israel paid compensation to all those involved. The full report is available to read on-line, but its detail will be lost on people on here, because it gets in the way of a good conspiracy. people would rather listen to youtube videos or conspiracy websites.

What about when the US shot down an Iranian aeroplane in Iranian airspace, Iran Air Flight 655 killing 290 people. what's the conspiracy around that.

Don't attempt to label this as a simple conspiracy. The Israelis deliberately targeted an American listening ship with the intent of sinking and killing all on board. That is an act of war and if they did it to a British asset you would be apoplectic. The fact that they paid compensation means **** to the original intention.

They did it with clear intent and with a strategic objective, they calculated that they could do the deed and no one would find out who did it because the boat would be at the bottom of the Med.

The followed up the initial airstrikes with torpedo ships god damn it !!!!

Grow up Steve and stop trying to call this a conspiracy.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Space Commander Travis

Israel paid compensation to all those involved. The full report is available to read on-line, but its detail will be lost on people on here, because it gets in the way of a good conspiracy. people would rather listen to youtube videos or conspiracy websites.

What about when the US shot down an Iranian aeroplane in Iranian airspace, Iran Air Flight 655 killing 290 people. what's the conspiracy around that.

They fired one missile, without being able to see the plane, due to, essentially, a monumental b*lls-up, even America's most avowed enemies agreed it was c*ck-up rather than conspiracy. The Liberty was rather different in that the Israelis could have had no possible doubt what they were attacking after the first pass. Edited by Valdemar the Great
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Br Cornelius

Here's another question, Do you think Espionage is an act of Treason/War ?

The Lawrence Franklin espionage scandal (also known as the AIPAC espionage scandal) refers to Lawrence Franklin's scandal of passing classified documents regarding United States policy towards Iran to Israel through American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). Franklin, a former United States Department of Defense employee, pleaded guilty to several espionage-related charges and was sentenced in January 2006 to nearly 13 years of prison, which was later reduced to ten months house arrest. Franklin passed information to AIPAC policy director Steven Rosen and AIPAC senior Iran analyst Keith Weissman, who later were fired by AIPAC. They were later indicted for illegally conspiring to gather and disclose classified national security information to Israel.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Franklin_espionage_scandal

That was just one example of an Israeli dual national spying and getting caught. How many more do you think didn't get caught.

Is it OK to conduct Espionage on an allie ?

Br Cornelius

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libstaK

Not sure why we are supposed to be getting all upset about it? an attack on a US warship? That's usually regarded as something worth making a fuss about - unless of course it's one of our allies or those we rather support than the other side, like when the USS Stark was hit by an Iraqi missile in '87 (which is perhaps a similar case of looking the other way and whistling casually, although there it probably was genuinely mistaken identity the Iraqi pilot probably never saw what the ship was). It's the deliberate intent of this that's surely significant. It's just a classic example of how, literally, nothing Israel does is ever criticized by the US Govt, let alone anything stronger, and how, as we see abundantly all over this forum, how there are those people who are literally prepared to turn a blind eye to or try to excuse anything, usually on the grounds that They want to Destroy Israel.

It was 47 years ago - the players are either all dead or senile, get over it. If we play that card then we will walk around crippled with the baggage of centuries of injustices, we need to learn from history but move forward. How many generations and Israel events are going to be tarred by playing the "they attacked a U.S. warship in 1967 card"? It could go on and on ad nauseum.

I don't really understand you argument, other than that you don't seem to consider it worth making a fuss about, and making a fuss about it is just loony anti-israel ranting. So you do admit that they did deliberately attack a US warship? And you don't consider that worthy of raising an eyebrow? or that anything Israel does is automatically excused because They want to Destroy Israel?

My argument is that the Israel of today is not the Israel of 1967, we need to look at current events and what the current powers that be there are doing, not judging them by actions of generations ago. People in glass houses shouldn't cast stones, if we use history as the judge and jury of any country in the world today, we can find a lot to smear them with and achieve zero progress in gaining an understanding of who the people are today that we are actually dealing with.

Edited by libstaK
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and then

Not sure why we are supposed to be getting all upset about it? an attack on a US warship? That's usually regarded as something worth making a fuss about - unless of course it's one of our allies or those we rather support than the other side, like when the USS Stark was hit by an Iraqi missile in '87 (which is perhaps a similar case of looking the other way and whistling casually, although there it probably was genuinely mistaken identity the Iraqi pilot probably never saw what the ship was). It's the deliberate intent of this that's surely significant. It's just a classic example of how, literally, nothing Israel does is ever criticized by the US Govt, let alone anything stronger, and how, as we see abundantly all over this forum, how there are those people who are literally prepared to turn a blind eye to or try to excuse anything, usually on the grounds that They want to Destroy Israel.

I don't really understand you argument, other than that you don't seem to consider it worth making a fuss about, and making a fuss about it is just loony anti-israel ranting. So you do admit that they did deliberately attack a US warship? And you don't consider that worthy of raising an eyebrow? or that anything Israel does is automatically excused because They want to Destroy Israel?

My words were quite clear. I find it near impossible to understand how a military you claim to be far too good to make such a mistake, could take action that could not be hidden and would certainly cause huge negative consequences for their nation. Hiding such an attack was nearly impossible.

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Space Commander Travis

Then i still don't understand your position. Are you saying it was deliberate or are you still trying to insist that it was a mistake? If it was deliberate, are you saying it doesn't matter?

It was 47 years ago - the players are either all dead or senile, get over it. If we play that card then we will walk around crippled with the baggage of centuries of injustices, we need to learn from history but move forward. How many generations and Israel events are going to be tarred by playing the "they attacked a U.S. warship in 1967 card"? It could go on and on ad nauseum.

My argument is that the Israel of today is not the Israel of 1967, we need to look at current events and what the current powers that be there are doing, not judging them by actions of generations ago. People in glass houses shouldn't cast stones, if we use history as the judge and jury of any country in the world today, we can find a lot to smear them with and achieve zero progress in gaining an understanding of who the people are today that we are actually dealing with.

Get over it? it doesn't matter? it's unimportant? Israel attacked the United States and it doesn't matter? Really?

To be sure, there's a lot of things that Israel has done since then, but this is a classic example of how they, literally, have been allowed to get away with murder, for years and years.

Edited by Valdemar the Great

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TSS

Then i still don't understand your position. Are you saying it was deliberate or are you still trying to insist that it was a mistake? If it was deliberate, are you saying it doesn't matter?

Get over it? it doesn't matter? it's unimportant? Israel attacked the United States and it doesn't matter? Really?

To be sure, there's a lot of things that Israel has done since then, but this is a classic example of how they, literally, have been allowed to get away with murder, for years and years.

Depends what you mean by getting away with murder! They admitted culpability, payed over 7 million in compo to victims and families, and about the same amoount again to US for damage caused. If you mean 'gotten away with murder' in terms of saying they deliberately attacked it......well lets hope all nations are not forced down that route, British Special Forces would be sitting at that table for many weeks detailing the operations they have undertaken in order to provokes a response in foreign lands.

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