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Br Cornelius

Israel attacks American assets: the proof

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and then

Depends what you mean by getting away with murder! They admitted culpability, payed over 7 million in compo to victims and families, and about the same amoount again to US for damage caused. If you mean 'gotten away with murder' in terms of saying they deliberately attacked it......well lets hope all nations are not forced down that route, British Special Forces would be sitting at that table for many weeks detailing the operations they have undertaken in order to provokes a response in foreign lands.

Exactly so - and I thought I had already mentioned the reparations made and the public apologies given - as well as explaining that attacking Israel in return might have caused an even bigger mess than already existed. Hell, for all Johnson knew, Israel was already a nuke weapons state. If Russia had done this we wouldn't have immediately gone to war with them.
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Br Cornelius

This is not a matter of it been in the dim distant past, Israel is still intentionally committing criminal acts against its allie the USA. This is a pattern of behaviour which is hard to dismiss.

Br Cornelius

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libstaK

Then i still don't understand your position. Are you saying it was deliberate or are you still trying to insist that it was a mistake? If it was deliberate, are you saying it doesn't matter?

I am not saying anything about the incident itself whatsoever, I am saying that given it took place 47 years ago - it is history. The germans alignment with the Nazism in WW2 is history, the USA's dropping of the atomic bomb on 2 civilian Japanese cities is history, the British colonization of India and it's subsequence fight for independence and all the attrocities that came with that is history, the Australian (or actually British Colonial) genocide of Tasmanian Aboriginals is history.

It matters in terms of what we can learn about right and wrong from history but it is not an appropriate position on which to base the relationship of the USA and Israel and what it should be today - 47 years has brought a lot of change and the mindset that attacked the U.S. Battleship is no longer a part of the USA and Israeli relationship today.

Get over it? it doesn't matter? it's unimportant? Israel attacked the United States and it doesn't matter? Really?

What are you going to do about it? How is getting upset about it today going to change anything? Please don't put words in my mouth - where did I say it was unimportant as an event? Contextually, it has no bearing on any of the politics of today, the world has moved forward from there and the relationship between Israel and the USA has moved forward from there, it is not a part of what we are dealing with today.

To be sure, there's a lot of things that Israel has done since then, but this is a classic example of how they, literally, have been allowed to get away with murder, for years and years.

And that can't be said for the USA or Britain or France or Spain or Russia or China or Australia or (name any nation whose hands are not particularly clean historically)?

It's a quagmire to base the nature of any nation today on what has been done by people of said nations historically, we would do nothing diplomatically or politically at any table but point fingers all day - it's a great way to never evolve or get anything done, but beyond that it is useless.

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No Censorship

This thread is full of irresistible forces and immovable objects. It shows why I think that it's nigh impossible to have a conversation, on the Middle East, without bias setting the tone of the debate. The *objective* facts aren't important in such discussions. Opinions are decided at the *start* of the discussions, and resulting pertinent facts will be swept to the side by *both* "teams".

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No Censorship

It always ends up like this.

Person 1: "Bob is nice most of the time, but I was disappointed when I saw him kick his dog."

Person 2: "You just hate Bob, and your lie proves it."

Person 3: "You're an apologist for Bob, who likely kills dogs for fun."

What Bob actually does or says is not important. He's a polarizing figure among his neighbors. Some people love him like a brother, and they think that he can do no wrong. Other people think that he's a monster, and they think that he's involved in all sorts of horrid activities.

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Br Cornelius

It always ends up like this.

Person 1: "Bob is nice most of the time, but I was disappointed when I saw him kick his dog."

Person 2: "You just hate Bob, and your lie proves it."

Person 3: "You're an apologist for Bob, who likely kills dogs for fun."

What Bob actually does or says is not important. He's a polarizing figure among his neighbors. Some people love him like a brother, and they think that he can do no wrong. Other people think that he's a monster, and they think that he's involved in all sorts of horrid activities.

But the choice is that you side with someone who abuses your trust, breaks your own moral code and carries out crimes against you in plain sight. This is not a matter of neutral moral choices.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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bee

This thread is full of irresistible forces and immovable objects. It shows why I think that it's nigh impossible to have a conversation, on the Middle East, without bias setting the tone of the debate. The *objective* facts aren't important in such discussions. Opinions are decided at the *start* of the discussions, and resulting pertinent facts will be swept to the side by *both* "teams".

so true...

For my part....I support Israel and I always feel there is an unspoken agenda behind threads like this...

That is...to try to (assist with) driving a wedge between Israel and America, to isolate Israel...

which would benefit the Islamic countries in the Middle East...

That's why there was a propaganda campaign to try and blame Israel for 9/11... :rolleyes:...IMO

.

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Br Cornelius

so true...

For my part....I support Israel and I always feel there is an unspoken agenda behind threads like this...

That is...to try to (assist with) driving a wedge between Israel and America, to isolate Israel...

which would benefit the Islamic countries in the Middle East...

That's why there was a propaganda campaign to try and blame Israel for 9/11... :rolleyes:...IMO

.

We all know your attitude about the good religions and the bad Bee, which makes your position rather biased to say the least.

Yours is a prejudice against a whole faith, mine is against a single secular state.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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TSS

Here's another question, Do you think Espionage is an act of Treason/War ?

http://en.wikipedia....pionage_scandal

That was just one example of an Israeli dual national spying and getting caught. How many more do you think didn't get caught.

Is it OK to conduct Espionage on an allie ?

Br Cornelius

It doesn't matter if it's ok or not...because we all do it. The UK has plenty of allies, we spy on them all, and they spy on us...it's only an issue if you get caught, a few people go to prison, excuses made behind closed doors....swept under the rug and everyone gets back to spying again. If you are going to know your enemy then you better know what your allies are really saying behind closed doors, otherwise you are walking down a blind alley.

Question is - why is it such a big issue for you that Israel does this? ...why do you expect them to be different to every other nation on the planet?

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bee

We all know your attitude about the good religions and the bad Bee, which makes your position rather biased to say the least.

You are the one starting threads like this.....my 'bias' is because I'm not a muslim and I don't want the influence

of Islam to spread more than is healthy for non-Islamic people and nations...

Global Jihad and all that....

Which doesn't seem to bother you in the slightest...and it appears you would like to see Israel

'removed from the map' whether this assists the Global Islamic Jihad or not...

(or maybe you support the Global Islamic Jihad...?)

Yours is a prejudice against a whole faith, mine is against a single secular state.

I know what side my bread is buttered...and that isn't assisting the spread of Islamic Fundamentalism ....

.

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bee

Question is - why is it such a big issue for you that Israel does this? ...why do you expect them to be different to every other nation on the planet?

good question....

.

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Br Cornelius

You are the one starting threads like this.....my 'bias' is because I'm not a muslim and I don't want the influence

of Islam to spread more than is healthy for non-Islamic people and nations...

Global Jihad and all that....

Which doesn't seem to bother you in the slightest...and it appears you would like to see Israel

'removed from the map' whether this assists the Global Islamic Jihad or not...

(or maybe you support the Global Islamic Jihad...?)

I know what side my bread is buttered...and that isn't assisting the spread of Islamic Fundamentalism ....

.

So been against Israel is been in favour of Jihad - thats sloppy think Bee, sloppy.

Br Cornelius

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bee

So been against Israel is been in favour of Jihad - thats sloppy think Bee, sloppy.

Br Cornelius

by default...yes....

that is the logic...in these modern times with the world situation like it is...

.

Edited by bee
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Br Cornelius

It doesn't matter if it's ok or not...because we all do it. The UK has plenty of allies, we spy on them all, and they spy on us...it's only an issue if you get caught, a few people go to prison, excuses made behind closed doors....swept under the rug and everyone gets back to spying again. If you are going to know your enemy then you better know what your allies are really saying behind closed doors, otherwise you are walking down a blind alley.

Question is - why is it such a big issue for you that Israel does this? ...why do you expect them to be different to every other nation on the planet?

Israel is committing crimes against humanity on a daily basis, its exactly the same as supporting Apartheid South Africa because the Africanns were European.

Its the consequences of supporting Israel to real people on a daily basis which is at issue here - that is my motivation.

There is a definite tail wagging the dog scenario going on between Israel and the USA - which I cannot see as healthy in any sense.

Br Cornelius

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Br Cornelius

by default...yes....

that is the logic...in these modern times with the world situation like it is...

.

Then maybe you should try thinking a bit harder about its because your are wrong and that is the consequence of sloppy thinking.

Br Cornelius

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bee

Then maybe you should try thinking a bit harder about its because your are wrong and that is the consequence of sloppy thinking.

Br Cornelius

well I think YOU'RE wrong.... ^_^

but I don't think YOUR thinking is sloppy at all...

I think it is very calculated..

And possibly treasonous........ B)

.

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Br Cornelius

well I think YOU'RE wrong.... ^_^

but I don't think YOUR thinking is sloppy at all...

I think it is very calculated..

And possibly treasonous........ B)

.

How so ?

Br Cornelius

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Br Cornelius

Let me make this clear, when I accused AND THEN of been treasonous it is based on the definite fact that he has offered support to body which has committed deadly crimes against his own nation and refused to condemn those acts of war against his nation, which by its very definition is Treason. He has sided with his enemy. Thats an actual statement of fact.

Now please explain where I have ever done anything other than expressed support for a nation under occupation - an entirely different situation to treason.

I suspect Bee that you are indulging in more sloppy thinking here :yes:

Br Cornelius

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bee

How so ?

Br Cornelius

although you claim to have some sort of moral reason for selecting Israel for your never ending criticism..

you may have a political agenda that is not,... shall we say....'helpful' to the secular West...

I'm not directly accusing you...because how could I know for sure...that's why I said possibly treasonous...

edit to say....I knew that would get you going as 'treason' seems to be your buzz word for this thread...LOL...

:P

.

Edited by bee
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TSS

Israel is committing crimes against humanity on a daily basis, its exactly the same as supporting Apartheid South Africa because the Africanns were European.

Its the consequences of supporting Israel to real people on a daily basis which is at issue here - that is my motivation.

There is a definite tail wagging the dog scenario going on between Israel and the USA - which I cannot see as healthy in any sense.

Br Cornelius

So the thread starting off by using an incident 47yrs ago, and asking if espionage is ok, whilst knowing full well that every other nation on planet has the same dirty laundry to air, was infact a pretext to open the door for your wider issue of Isreal committing crimes against humanity daily (to use your words)?

the Israel/US partnership is the tail wagging the dog? Always a possibility, yet either side in any allied relationship will be getting something of use or the relationship doesn't work. You really think the US doesn't have incentives in this that make it the dog wagging the tail?

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Br Cornelius

So the thread starting off by using an incident 47yrs ago, and asking if espionage is ok, whilst knowing full well that every other nation on planet has the same dirty laundry to air, was infact a pretext to open the door for your wider issue of Isreal committing crimes against humanity daily (to use your words)?

the Israel/US partnership is the tail wagging the dog? Always a possibility, yet either side in any allied relationship will be getting something of use or the relationship doesn't work. You really think the US doesn't have incentives in this that make it the dog wagging the tail?

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Israel get the far better deal and often at the expense of American national interests, so I stand by my belief that the tail is wagging the dog, and I believe at this stage it would be very difficult for the USA to surgically remove the tail to its advantage.

Br Cornelius

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Br Cornelius

although you claim to have some sort of moral reason for selecting Israel for your never ending criticism..

you may have a political agenda that is not,... shall we say....'helpful' to the secular West...

I'm not directly accusing you...because how could I know for sure...that's why I said possibly treasonous...

edit to say....I knew that would get you going as 'treason' seems to be your buzz word for this thread...LOL...

:P

.

Think your little conspiracy thoughts Bee, but let me counsel you that their not good for your health :tu:

Br Cornelius

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bee

Think your little conspiracy thoughts Bee, but let me counsel you that their not good for your health :tu:

Br Cornelius

Is that a veiled threat..... :unsure2:

.

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Br Cornelius

Is that a veiled threat..... :unsure2:

.

I am think of your mental health, don't want you becoming one of those sad conspiracy freaks :w00t:

Br Cornelius

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bee

I am think of your mental health, don't want you becoming one of those sad conspiracy freaks :w00t:

Br Cornelius

how very kind of you....

but I have printed off your remark just in case... ;)

:lol:

.

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