Israel attacks American assets: the proof

[Bavarian Raven]

Last time I looked the Governments of both the UK and Ireland were supporters of the Government in Tel Aviv. I don't believe they are any more our friends than they are the USA's genuine friends. They attempted to drag the US and the UK into a war with Iran only a matter of a few years ago - and how was that going to serve our national interests and not just theirs ??

And how is this different then any country trying to draw other countries in when they have an enemy they want dealt with?

[+and-then]

And how is this different then any country trying to draw other countries in when they have an enemy they want dealt with?

But, but, but, it's Israel!!!

[No Censorship]

So, you are saying the pro-Israel apologists (not you, necessarily - I appreciate you made clear your position) can argue that it's okay to sweep the Liberty incident aside because it happened a few decades ago, but we must still be cautious of anti-semitic bigotry that happened even longer ago?

A reasonable person who was to dismiss events that happened 40 or so years ago in order to not criticise Israel "unreasonably", should also dismiss events that happened 60+ years ago ( and even those which are alleged to have occurred 2000+ years ago) in order to not support Israel "unreasonably".

There are some people like that. It's a mixed bag. I think that we should know all of the facts and truth surrounding the Liberty tragedy. Let the chips fall where they may, but don't embrace falsehoods if the outcome is not palatable to one's political philosophy. That goes for both sides. I would hope that no one would excuse the perpetrators if it was proved that it was a deliberate attack. Speaking to your point, there's no statute of limitations on something like that. This goes for all such incidents and tragedies, from Ur to last night. Condemnation can be done without blaming people who have nothing to do with any misdeeds. Blame the actual individuals, and call a spade a spade. Do a clinical and surgical investigation free of philosophical considerations. Good relationships can weather such storms if we're honest with each other.

[No Censorship]

But the choice is that you side with someone who abuses your trust, breaks your own moral code and carries out crimes against you in plain sight. This is not a matter of neutral moral choices.

Br Cornelius

I'm just saying let the facts come forth before you decide someone is guilty or not. Leave political baggage out of it. I'm talking about any tragic event like this. Make up your mind *after* the facts are known.

[libstaK]

So, you are saying the pro-Israel apologists (not you, necessarily - I appreciate you made clear your position) can argue that it's okay to sweep the Liberty incident aside because it happened a few decades ago, but we must still be cautious of anti-semitic bigotry that happened even longer ago?

A reasonable person who was to dismiss events that happened 40 or so years ago in order to not criticise Israel "unreasonably", should also dismiss events that happened 60+ years ago ( and even those which are alleged to have occurred 2000+ years ago) in order to not support Israel "unreasonably".

I'm not seeing Germany being continued to be raked over the coals because of WW2, or Japan for that matter, or even Italy over the whole Mussolini thing.

[Space Commander Travis]

No one's desperate and no-one is excusing them of everything....

Talk about a strawman...jeeez..

America and Israel are strong allies...why on earth would either of them deliberately attack the other...

This must have been a case of 'friendly fire'.......or a plant in the higher ranks....

Fog of war and all that...

You really believe that Israel would attack America...?

I can't remember...are you one of the 'Israel Did 9/11' lot...?

.

That's the best excuse?

And please, lay off the insinuations, thank you.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Valdemar the Great

[Space Commander Travis]

I'm sorry to disappoint you but I'm bored with you and your thread now........

.

.

So that's the best level of your argument,then? I'm bored now, so that means I don't have to try to come up with any more plausible excuses. *bored smilie*

Don't you want to accuse anyone else of hating the Jews then? That's the usual default response. Surely you can keep that going for a bit longer.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Valdemar the Great

[Space Commander Travis]

I'm not seeing Germany being continued to be raked over the coals because of WW2, or Japan for that matter, or even Italy over the whole Mussolini thing.

Yes, you won't find any books about Hitler or the Holocaust, they've hushed all that up.

Besides, no one's tried to argue that Pearl Harbor, or the U-boat attacks on shipping off the American coast, were just mistakes; fog of war and all that.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

And how is this different then any country trying to draw other countries in when they have an enemy they want dealt with?

The point is the interests of Israel cannot be assumed to be the same as those of the USA - but that is the default position in Washington. This is a very dangerous position for the USA to place itself in and I would say it has led to many foreign policy mistakes. Cut them loose, they are not an asset.

Br Cornelius

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Let me make it clear, I do not hate Israel as such, I hate the things that Israel does to others and the suffering it causes. If Israel were to become a good world citizen then I would no longer have any reason to hate the state of Israel and I would cease to do so. I don't see that happening any time soon, but if a peace settlement were achieved then I am certain that Israel could be rehabilitated back into the fold of Civilized society.

Br Cornelius

[Space Commander Travis]

And how is this different then any country trying to draw other countries in when they have an enemy they want dealt with?

What, Israel tried to draw the US (and inevitably the UK) into a wholly unnecessary war purely in pursuit of their own strategic interests (removing the first of the two main obstacles to their becoming the dominant power in the Middle East) (the other of course being Syria), and that's perfectly ok?

[bee]

Looks like you don't want to watch one of the victims speak his truth. Thats sad.

Br Cornelius

Good Morning Br Cornelius...

ok...

I was tired last night but I have now watched it...

My heart goes out to the Survivor ... he and others got caught up in a horribly complicated part of the conflict..

He obviously bears a grudge...and this is understandable after what he went through..poor guy..

Siding with Palestine ...aka Hamas etc...and in effect isolating Israel as a first step to throwing it

to the wolves...is not a preferred option...IMO...

At the very least..America having a strong ally in the middle of the Middle East..is beneficial to the West....

Appeasing '''Palestine'''....will not make the world a safer place, in fact it would probably make it a much

more dangerous place ..... all the millions of Muslims who are indoctrinated from birth to hate Israel

would be so buzzed up with it all...it would probably make what's going on with the 'Islamic State' now

look like child's play.....the lid is only just being kept on it all as it is...

[Space Commander Travis]

What's Palestine got to do with this case, Bee? Palestine couldn't possibly be blamed for this. Are we arguing that we ought to excuse anything that Israel does, no matter to whom, because the Palestinians want to destroy them?

[libstaK]

Yes, you won't find any books about Hitler or the Holocaust, they've hushed all that up.

Besides, no one's tried to argue that Pearl Harbor, or the U-boat attacks on shipping off the American coast, were just mistakes; fog of war and all that.

Oh I get that there are plenty of books, but you see Israel's attack on the warship was no secret either .... yet no one today wants to use WW2 as support for an argument for bringing Germany to justice or claim that Germany today is the same animal that did what it did back then, yet it is what is currently being claimed for Israel.

One thing you may want to know - I am not an Israeli supporter, I accept their right to exist and have peace but I also think there are real criminal actions taken by them against the Palestinians today that could and should be brought to trial, the issue of borders is a big one for me. The Palestinians have legitimate grievances that the world needs to recognize, Hamas is making it easy for Israel to muddy the waters on the legitimate issues and that is upsetting to me.

[bee]

So that's the best level of your argument,then? I'm bored now, so that means I don't have to try to come up with any more plausible excuses. *bored smilie*

Don't you want to accuse anyone else of hating the Jews then? That's the usual default response. Surely you can keep that going for a bit longer.

.....maybe I'll make the effort then....just for you...

Although I have got bigger fish to fry at the moment.... :alien:

.

[bee]

What's Palestine got to do with this case, Bee? Palestine couldn't possibly be blamed for this. Are we arguing that we ought to excuse anything that Israel does, no matter to whom, because the Palestinians want to destroy them?

if you had watched Phaeton's link Br wanted us to watch...you'd know why I said what I said....about Palestine

.

[Space Commander Travis]

Oh I get that there are plenty of books, but you see Israel's attack on the warship was no secret either .... yet no one today wants to use WW2 as support for an argument for bringing Germany to justice or claim that Germany today is the same animal that did what it did back then, yet it is what is currently being claimed for Israel.

One thing you may want to know - I am not an Israeli supporter, I accept their right to exist and have peace but I also think there are real criminal actions taken by them against the Palestinians today that could and should be brought to trial, the issue of borders is a big one for me. The Palestinians have legitimate grievances that the world needs to recognize, Hamas is making it easy for Israel to muddy the waters on the legitimate issues and that is upsetting to me.

Well, israel tried to keep it a secret, or at least insisted, and still insists, that it was a mistake, which I really don't think is an argument that will stand up. Of course, if they did admit it was intentional, that would open up a whole series of cans of worms (because they thought that the US was eavesdropping on their secret communications? that it was some kind of ploy to draw America into the war and provoke them into attacking Egypt (which they did come pretty close to when they initially thought that the attackers were Egyptian)?), so I can see that in the interests of harmonious US-Israeli relations in the face of the peril to its very existence that Israel faces ( ), they'd be very reluctant to face up to these things, but this kind of thing really doesn't enhance Israel's reputation as a nation that deserves the sympathy and support of the rest of the world.

[libstaK]

Well, israel tried to keep it a secret, or at least insisted, and still insists, that it was a mistake, which I really don't think is an argument that will stand up. Of course, if they did admit it was intentional, that would open up a whole series of cans of worms (because they thought that the US was eavesdropping on their secret communications? that it was some kind of ploy to draw America into the war and provoke them into attacking Egypt (which they did come pretty close to when they initially thought that the attackers were Egyptian)?), so I can see that in the interests of harmonious US-Israeli relations in the face of the peril to its very existence that Israel faces ( ), they'd be very reluctant to face up to these things, but this kind of thing really doesn't enhance Israel's reputation as a nation that deserves the sympathy and support of the rest of the world.

Naturally they tried to keep it a secret, their aims were completely nefarious - draw the U.S. into a war with a false flag operation, no arguments there.

Fact is, they were caught out and forced to pay a recompence for their actions - which they did, and so it has become a matter of historic record that they did do something very wrong and stupid and paid the price. As I said, there are much more immediate issues that need redressing, because they have not yet been redressed than this matter of history.

Edited November 16, 2014 by libstaK

[stevewinn]

Can someone who believes in the conspiracy please explain what the conspiracy actually is. So far it seems were trying to prove the point , - the attack was deliberate, If the attack was deliberate why? what for? what was the goal for Israel? I've asked this question five times to Br who hasn't answered it once.

[TSS]

Can someone who believes in the conspiracy please explain what the conspiracy actually is. So far it seems were trying to prove the point , - the attack was deliberate, If the attack was deliberate why? what for? what was the goal for Israel? I've asked this question five times to Br who hasn't answered it once.

It's simple Steve - they attacked them on purpose to draw them into the war.

To follow the thinking on that all you need to do is apply double standards, and hope no one notices. Meaning - you make the case that the mighty Israeli military never make mistakes, everything is planned and with an ulterior motive (afterall, it's not there is any history of mighty military powers shooting at the wrong people by mistake is there....). Then you leave it a couple of pages, and apply the opposite stance when implying it was deliberate - therefore implying the mighty Israeli military are so thick they no one could think more then 10minutes ahead and work out that it would take no time at all for the US to realise the hardware wasn't Egyptian, and that this little attempt would backfire pdq and cause all sorts of problems with their closest allie.

...and that's how it works when making the case these days - Israeli military: incapable of making mistakes, yet the forward thinking skills of a gold fish.

Edited November 16, 2014 by The Sky Scanner

[bee]

.

I have watched the Survivor testimony again....and there ARE grey areas...grey areas that both the US and Israel

(and Russia?) would probably rather was forgotten...

Was the US playing a bigger part than is made public - in the whole sorry affair...? For some reason..?

near the beginning (6 ish minutes) Ernie Gallo says that they saw 2 Israeli helicopters carrying armed marines...

around the five minute mark he says the 6th fleet had orders not to come to their assistance...

But perhaps what he says about the Soviet Union (in the last third of the vid somewhere)....could be at the bottom

of it all....somehow....don't know how...but somehow.

Quote Ernie....

"In the meantime - the Soviets were going crazy as Egypt and Syria were their client states and Israel was kicking

their behinds - the Soviet (PM?) Brezhnev indicated to Johnson that they were ready to enter the war with paratroopers.."

and

"going against American guidance on June 9th ....Israel took the Golan Heights. We have learned that the Soviet Union was

ready to use military force and nuclear weapons had Israel made an attempt to invade Cairo and Damascus.."

Was it against American guidance though...? Or is that the official version..?

Is it possible that the initial torpedoes were fired by the Soviet Union...?

But Israel took the blame and added a bit of an attack to 'show themselves'...so that the US didn't look weak

against it's biggest foe...the Soviet Union...but at the same time didn't want to get embroiled in a war with

them that could escalate into heaven knows what....

Behind closed door deals done with Israel...

Deadly brinkmanship by all parties involved......US, Soviet Union and Israel...

LOL...is that a good conspiracy theory......or what...

.

Edited November 16, 2014 by bee

[Space Commander Travis]

Can someone who believes in the conspiracy please explain what the conspiracy actually is. So far it seems were trying to prove the point , - the attack was deliberate, If the attack was deliberate why? what for? what was the goal for Israel? I've asked this question five times to Br who hasn't answered it once.

You don't believe it was deliberate? Why don't you believe it was deliberate? You don't believe that the planes and MTBs made repeated passes, and that the Liberty tried to notify them of her identity, and that she was flying the US flag, and had a USN hull number, and the Israelis could not possibly have not noticed that? You honestly think that a force as professional as the Israeli Defense forces could have made that big a ****-up, and having made it once, made the same ****-up over and over again?

[Space Commander Travis]

As for the conspiracy, how about the fact that the nearby US carrier had strike planes bombed up ready to attack Cairo because they initially thought that the attackers were Egyptian?

[Space Commander Travis]

It's simple Steve - they attacked them on purpose to draw them into the war.

To follow the thinking on that all you need to do is apply double standards, and hope no one notices. Meaning - you make the case that the mighty Israeli military never make mistakes, everything is planned and with an ulterior motive (afterall, it's not there is any history of mighty military powers shooting at the wrong people by mistake is there....). Then you leave it a couple of pages, and apply the opposite stance when implying it was deliberate - therefore implying the mighty Israeli military are so thick they no one could think more then 10minutes ahead and work out that it would take no time at all for the US to realise the hardware wasn't Egyptian, and that this little attempt would backfire pdq and cause all sorts of problems with their closest allie.

...and that's how it works when making the case these days - Israeli military: incapable of making mistakes, yet the forward thinking skills of a gold fish.

Oh for goodness sake, i don't believe you believe they could have been that incompetent. It wasn't, why do people never address this bit, it wasn't just one missile and one bomb fired from far off before they had a visual sight of the target, they made pass after pass, even with machine gun fire. Do you believe they could have been that incompetent? I'm afraid I wouldn't believe you if you said you did. I think it must be because people are so anxious to dissociate themselves from any hint of a "conspiracy theory" (ooh, woo woo nutcases who believe the royal family are giant reptiles) that they simply refuse to believe what's blindingly obvious, and retreat into their "conspiracy theorists: nutcases" security blanket so they force themselves to believe what is literally unbelievable.

[bee]

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Musical Interlude.....!!!!.....

lol...haven't had occasion to use this song for ages..but it fits here now with all the conspiracy talk...

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