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Br Cornelius

Israel attacks American assets: the proof

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SolarPlexus

America doesn't need Israel, Israel need America.

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TSS

Oh for goodness sake, i don't believe you believe they could have been that incompetent. It wasn't, why do people never address this bit, it wasn't just one missile and one bomb fired from far off before they had a visual sight of the target, they made pass after pass, even with machine gun fire. Do you believe they could have been that incompetent? I'm afraid I wouldn't believe you if you said you did. I think it must be because people are so anxious to dissociate themselves from any hint of a "conspiracy theory" (ooh, woo woo nutcases who believe the royal family are giant reptiles) that they simply refuse to believe what's blindingly obvious, and retreat into their "conspiracy theorists: nutcases" security blanket so they force themselves to believe what is literally unbelievable.

*bolding mine

Absolute nonsense. It's been pretty obvious in the years i've been here that the only subject I really care about is near the top of the board (clues in the username). I have constantly dis-associated myself from the usual suspects who trot that 'woo-woo' line out as their default setting for anything that doesn't fit their blinkered belief systems. I'm surprised you would label me as one of those with tunnel vision when it comes to things like that. Just because I point out an inconsistancy in thinking I wouldn't assume you then know my actual stance on any given subject....because if you read it you'll see that is all I did - point out how one train of thought is used to paint different pictures.

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SolarPlexus

The Jewish lobby is strong in US, every once and a while they try to draw US into a new conflict.

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stevewinn

You don't believe it was deliberate? Why don't you believe it was deliberate? You don't believe that the planes and MTBs made repeated passes, and that the Liberty tried to notify them of her identity, and that she was flying the US flag, and had a USN hull number, and the Israelis could not possibly have not noticed that? You honestly think that a force as professional as the Israeli Defense forces could have made that big a ****-up, and having made it once, made the same ****-up over and over again?

There is no evidence of a deliberate attack in the sense they knew from the start it was American, The Israelis thought they were attacking an Egyptian ship. The USS liberty tried to notify them, but according to the records, her signals were being blocked, in what we would call to day soft kill. The mistakes all came about thanks to human error. the Torpedo boats firstly wrongly identifying the USS liberty, and then wrongly working out the ship was heading away from them at 28knots. which is why they requested the fighters fearing the ship was escaping.

The mistakes then continued, when the fighter pilot requested permission to attack, which was granted, it was only after the first attack the pilot WAS asked to identify the ship, and this is were the first mention of it possibly being American, the controller couldn't verify it was American because the USS liberty's position was no longer on the battle map at Israel's HQ. - the fighters move away and the patrol boats move in, they make another mistake in identifying it as Russian, and according to the report that sent shock waves up the chain of command, before realising it was American.

You seem to think the Israeli forces were highly capable and a mistake could not happen. Well explain why the fighter jets never sunk the boat, and how many Torpedoes hit the boat. when you try and answer these questions you'll soon see most of the torpedoes and munitions missed the ship even though the ship was dead in the water, this proves the inexperience of the crews.

Reading posts in this thread, the conspiracy grows, with mentions of the 6th fleet being told not to run to the rescue, well that is something the secretary of Defence, McNamara denies he ever gave the order for the 6th fleet not to rescue or recall planes. and the conspiracy gets worse, people are talking about nuclear armed planes being launched to bomb Egypt, No country is going to drop nuclear armed bombs over one of their ships being hit. because in comparison its trivial and a overreaction, and would have been condemned by the international community.

Why would Israel need the US in the war? it was day three of the six day war, and Israel was winning. they'd already wiped out the air-force of Egypt. It just doesn't add up this conspiracy.

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bee

.

Perhaps the US were more involved in the 6 day war than we know about....

and were looking to expand their influence in the area...and the Soviets had to take severe measures...

ie torpedo the USS Liberty...

in an act of brinkmanship...

then like I said before the US got Israel to make a show and take the blame so it (US) didn't look weak and sneaky...

In exchange for further favours...?

This is a more believable scenario to me than Israel just knowingly attacking it's biggest ally...

Or it's biggest ally siding with the Soviet Union against Israel.....

:wacko: my conspiracy head hurts :wacko:

.

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and then

What's Palestine got to do with this case, Bee? Palestine couldn't possibly be blamed for this. Are we arguing that we ought to excuse anything that Israel does, no matter to whom, because the Palestinians want to destroy them? :unsure2:

You ask rhetorical questions to make a point and use examples you don't truly believe. You don't even really accept that Israel WOULD be destroyed by the Palestinians. Just like Br. stating that he'd could get to be ok with a new and improved Israel - one that accedes to all demands by the Palestinians I assume. So I ask again - what do you suppose would happen if the Palestinians were given all the west bank, Gaza and half of Jerusalem? Do you honestly believe they would stop attacking?

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Br Cornelius

There is no evidence of a deliberate attack in the sense they knew from the start it was American, The Israelis thought they were attacking an Egyptian ship. The USS liberty tried to notify them, but according to the records, her signals were being blocked, in what we would call to day soft kill. The mistakes all came about thanks to human error. the Torpedo boats firstly wrongly identifying the USS liberty, and then wrongly working out the ship was heading away from them at 28knots. which is why they requested the fighters fearing the ship was escaping.

The mistakes then continued, when the fighter pilot requested permission to attack, which was granted, it was only after the first attack the pilot WAS asked to identify the ship, and this is were the first mention of it possibly being American, the controller couldn't verify it was American because the USS liberty's position was no longer on the battle map at Israel's HQ. - the fighters move away and the patrol boats move in, they make another mistake in identifying it as Russian, and according to the report that sent shock waves up the chain of command, before realising it was American.

You seem to think the Israeli forces were highly capable and a mistake could not happen. Well explain why the fighter jets never sunk the boat, and how many Torpedoes hit the boat. when you try and answer these questions you'll soon see most of the torpedoes and munitions missed the ship even though the ship was dead in the water, this proves the inexperience of the crews.

Reading posts in this thread, the conspiracy grows, with mentions of the 6th fleet being told not to run to the rescue, well that is something the secretary of Defence, McNamara denies he ever gave the order for the 6th fleet not to rescue or recall planes. and the conspiracy gets worse, people are talking about nuclear armed planes being launched to bomb Egypt, No country is going to drop nuclear armed bombs over one of their ships being hit. because in comparison its trivial and a overreaction, and would have been condemned by the international community.

Why would Israel need the US in the war? it was day three of the six day war, and Israel was winning. they'd already wiped out the air-force of Egypt. It just doesn't add up this conspiracy.

bull**** Steve. They new that it was the Liberty from the start and they communicated this to the ground base, the communication was intercepted by the US but not used in the investigation (I wonder why).

Br Cornelius

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Br Cornelius

.

Perhaps the US were more involved in the 6 day war than we know about....

and were looking to expand their influence in the area...and the Soviets had to take severe measures...

ie torpedo the USS Liberty...

in an act of brinkmanship...

then like I said before the US got Israel to make a show and take the blame so it (US) didn't look weak and sneaky...

In exchange for further favours...?

This is a more believable scenario to me than Israel just knowingly attacking it's biggest ally...

Or it's biggest ally siding with the Soviet Union against Israel.....

:wacko: my conspiracy head hurts :wacko:

.

The US were in the area and were equipped to intercept missile strikes against Egypt and Syria because they new that such an attack by Israel would likely escalate to a third world war. So they were very concerned about their allie and what they might draw down on the US. They definitely did not want any sort of provocation of Moscow at the time.

Br Cornelius

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and then

The US were in the area and were equipped to intercept missile strikes against Egypt and Syria because they new that such an attack by Israel would likely escalate to a third world war. So they were very concerned about their allie and what they might draw down on the US. They definitely did not want any sort of provocation of Moscow at the time.

Br Cornelius

Intercept with WHAT? We had nothing in '67 that could have done such a thing. But your point raises another, more pertinent concept. If Israel was suspected of possibly nuking her neighbors in '67 because of possibly being overrun, WHY do so many imagine that 45 years later they would do less?

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Space Commander Travis

There is no evidence of a deliberate attack in the sense they knew from the start it was American, The Israelis thought they were attacking an Egyptian ship. The USS liberty tried to notify them, but according to the records, her signals were being blocked, in what we would call to day soft kill. The mistakes all came about thanks to human error. the Torpedo boats firstly wrongly identifying the USS liberty, and then wrongly working out the ship was heading away from them at 28knots. which is why they requested the fighters fearing the ship was escaping.

The mistakes then continued, when the fighter pilot requested permission to attack, which was granted, it was only after the first attack the pilot WAS asked to identify the ship, and this is were the first mention of it possibly being American, the controller couldn't verify it was American because the USS liberty's position was no longer on the battle map at Israel's HQ. - the fighters move away and the patrol boats move in, they make another mistake in identifying it as Russian, and according to the report that sent shock waves up the chain of command, before realising it was American.

You seem to think the Israeli forces were highly capable and a mistake could not happen. Well explain why the fighter jets never sunk the boat, and how many Torpedoes hit the boat. when you try and answer these questions you'll soon see most of the torpedoes and munitions missed the ship even though the ship was dead in the water, this proves the inexperience of the crews.

Yes, exactly. They made repeated attacks, as I keep saying, so really you don't think they wouldn't have been able to identify her in that time? I really doubt that I'm afraid, sorry. :(

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Space Commander Travis

Intercept with WHAT? We had nothing in '67 that could have done such a thing. But your point raises another, more pertinent concept. If Israel was suspected of possibly nuking her neighbors in '67 because of possibly being overrun, WHY do so many imagine that 45 years later they would do less?

Do people imagine that they wouldn't? That's one of the reasons why the world does not perhaps always support Israel as much as you'd like, because they suspect that it might be fanatical enough to do that. But threatening that they might do that, sadly, doesn't really work in attracting sympathy for them; just the opposite in fact really I'm afraid, as it tends to make them see it as a dangerous bully. :(
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Mr.United_Nations

So what if Israel tomorrow admitted that they knew the ship was American all along? Wait to we see more classified documents released. If there is a nation with so many mistakes it would be Israel

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bee

The US were in the area and were equipped to intercept missile strikes against Egypt and Syria because they new that such an attack by Israel would likely escalate to a third world war. So they were very concerned about their allie and what they might draw down on the US. They definitely did not want any sort of provocation of Moscow at the time.

Br Cornelius

re underlined...I think this is about the least likely senario.....the US, in effect acting as part of the defence for Egypt

and Syria..? Militarily on the side of Egypt etc,,,,against Israel.

No

This is a good documentary...with original historic footage.

Speculation on a possible conspiracy near the end is that USS Liberty was sacrificed in a plan cooked up

by the US and Israel...TOGETHER...that if it went down and no witnesses were left then it would be blamed

on Egypt...and then America could openly join the conflict and go to war against Egypt...

But then the question is begged...why did the attacks stop before the ship went down and everyone was killed..?

Although it does look like the USS Liberty was allowed - lured ? - into a vulnerable position... was not given

general protection and wasn't defended or supported when attacked..

Perhaps something happened while the plan was being put into action and it was aborted...

perhaps a warning from the Soviets..?

I don't think anyone is going to get to the bottom of all this any time soon...

"USS Liberty: Dead In The Water" (BBC Documentary 2002)

[media=]

[/media]

.

Edited by bee

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and then

Do people imagine that they wouldn't? That's one of the reasons why the world does not perhaps always support Israel as much as you'd like, because they suspect that it might be fanatical enough to do that. But threatening that they might do that, sadly, doesn't really work in attracting sympathy for them; just the opposite in fact really I'm afraid, as it tends to make them see it as a dangerous bully. :(

Yes, but they do NOT threaten others with those weapons. Unless just knowing they have them is a threat. They use nukes the same way everyone else with them uses them - for deterrence from attack. In Israel's case, they were invaded 3 times in less than 3 decades by several of their neighbors. And pardon me but their Arab neighbor's populations (good Muslims that they are) STILL talk of annihilating the "Zionist Entity". And they aren't speaking of a political movement. They are speaking of Jews, plain and simple. The world increasingly is supporting these ahi Israel movements and are, indeed acting as though Israel can be pushed into an indefensible piece of land at some point. This is done full well knowing that the Palestinians will NOT STOP trying to destroy Israel. There can be no doubt on that point. One would have to be very simple not to understand that point.

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Br Cornelius

The implications of the Shadow American subs maybe far more sinister than I first supposed, but I will not speculate beyond the available facts at this stage.

Br Cornelius

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Leonardo

America doesn't need Israel, Israel need America.

There are American politicians who need Israel, however.

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