Exorcists issue warning about Ouija boards

[+OverSword]

Well, to me, this sounds like what so many believers in the paranormal do, latch onto existing or highly theoretical science and try and shoehorn their beliefs into it. People talking about electromagnetic fields when it comes to explaining ghosts. Quantum physics can explain psychic powers. Etc.

Here you are trying to shoehorn the idea of ghosts and demons into highly theoretical cosmology. It just doesn't work. Other than simply invoking the idea of parallel universe, you haven't really explained anything. It doesn't make any sense to me. How and why would life in a parallel universe cause a planchette in some other parallel universe (ours) on a board marked with numbers and letters while human beings are holding the planchette move to spell out words? If they're capable of directly influencing things here and had a reason to do so, doesn't it strike you as a kind of odd thing to to limit yourself to that very strange and specific form of communicating with or influencing our universe?

Appreciate that it's just a personal belief, but it makes no more sense to me than others attempts at shoehorning in personal beliefs into cutting edge science and using vague and unspecific explanations.

It doesn't need to make sense to you because I don't really care that you don't agree with me. You asked, I replied.

Edit to add: This was my opinion long before string theory and the physics of multiverse were in vogue.

Edited December 8, 2014 by OverSword

[_Only]

Indeed and M-theory and string theory have posited the existence of spatial dimensions beyond the 3 we currently are aware of, but speculates that they're very different because they would be highly deformed and warped and exist on sub-atomic scales and not really the kind of place where you'd find a ghost or demon.

'Spirit' or 'demon' is really a case of names given to something people don't know what else to give a name to, due to religious history of calling these type of weird events and unknown 'evil'. You're kind of following these archaic rules by thinking that some type of awareness or supposed communication with something unknown is a 'demon', 'angel', 'alien', etc., when a better potential descriptive term is just 'something'.

It's pretty apparent that you are basing your understanding of all that is through what we have learned about physics and concepts through science and its theories. This is fine, and the popular accepted 'correct' way of thinking.

But some people are simply entertaining possibilities without the need to stick to those rules, and (probably) are simply trying to bridge a gap to those who think in the way you do by using terms that might be more accepted. But it seems it's a bad idea, in your eyes. There's positive and negative sides to it, though. I feel like it might be a can't win scenario, though. If they don't use terms one can scientifically relate to, people will ask, 'where's the science?!', but if scientific terms are tried to use to attempt to desceribe the inherently unscientific, it would become 'that's not real science!'

Well, of course it's not. Science describes what can be observed in a more strict, rule guided form. It's harder to scientifically follow a process to understand and draw data on the abstract realm of possibilities. That's what philosophy is for.

[seaturtlehorsesnake]

Whether one believes in demonic possession or not,

that an apparently bedeviled person has a last resort

can be a relief to more people than the afflicted one.

or the afflicted person could get real help.

*shrugs* i am an atheist, so there's a gap here where my beliefs are never going to line up with those of people who do believe. but this is not some abstract idea to me. i've suffered from severe depression on and off since i was ten, at least. and while i was never told i was "possessed" i was utterly terrified of the idea. i can't get across in words how afraid i was. because i didn't understand what was happening to me, because i was ignorant and naive and i had no resources to tell me why i was feeling the way i did.

and these so called "exorcists" take advantage of those kinds of fears, and tell people who are already suffering that they should be afraid, and they make those fears external and they give them "powers"... this is disgusting to me. i have no patience for it.

[_Only]

or the afflicted person could get real help.

*shrugs* i am an atheist, so there's a gap here where my beliefs are never going to line up with those of people who do believe. but this is not some abstract idea to me. i've suffered from severe depression on and off since i was ten, at least. and while i was never told i was "possessed" i was utterly terrified of the idea. i can't get across in words how afraid i was. because i didn't understand what was happening to me, because i was ignorant and naive and i had no resources to tell me why i was feeling the way i did.

and these so called "exorcists" take advantage of those kinds of fears, and tell people who are already suffering that they should be afraid, and they make those fears external and they give them "powers"... this is disgusting to me. i have no patience for it.

The thing is, a lot of psychological problems can be dealt with psychologically. I'm not saying a priest telling a woman to say a hail Mary while he pours holy water on her will actually ward off any 'spirits', but it may have a real and potent effect on the psychological state of the woman, through her state of mind which was fueled by what she felt was 'evil spirits'.

She probably doesn't need a prescription to Risperidone, which is a very real possibility when you seek 'real help' for these type of situations.

edit: But depression really doesn't relate to anything in this topic. Depression is a state of sustained sadness (or lack of seratonin/dopamine supplied to your noodle). I don't really understand why it would relate to Ouija boards or 'spirits'.

But I do agree that a lot of counter productive fear mongering is done by those who are attempting to ward away 'evil'. But then they attempt to resolve the externalized 'evil' by performing their own rituals of intent, which hopefully burn off the negativity they may have built up.

Edited December 8, 2014 by _Only

[seaturtlehorsesnake]

i'm actually talking about clinical depression (i should have said), _only, which is not a state of sadness. it's a disease. and i brought it up in relation to the talk about exorcists, who are mentioned in the thread title.

edit: and i actually had a small thing like the ritual you mention done back in the day. it made me feel better for a few days, but the underlying problem was still there. it did not help me at all in the long term.

but i feel super awkward talking about this, so i'm done.

Edited December 8, 2014 by seaturtlehorsesnake

[quiXilver]

considering that 99%+ of our universe is unobservable to us, it's always seemed odd to me to be too certain about.... anything.

[aka CAT]

or the afflicted person could get real help.

*shrugs* i am an atheist, so there's a gap here where my beliefs are never going to line up with those of people who do believe. but this is not some abstract idea to me. i've suffered from severe depression on and off since i was ten, at least. and while i was never told i was "possessed" i was utterly terrified of the idea. i can't get across in words how afraid i was. because i didn't understand what was happening to me, because i was ignorant and naive and i had no resources to tell me why i was feeling the way i did.

and these so called "exorcists" take advantage of those kinds of fears, and tell people who are already suffering that they should be afraid, and they make those fears external and they give them "powers"... this is disgusting to me. i have no patience for it.

Re: your depression and childhood fears, my sympathy.

The latter was probably more due to the media, e.g. scary

movies. Responsible guardians are to do their best to both

shield minors from age inappropriate content and counter

their groundless anxieties with consoling facts, whereas

strangers, unacquainted with you, can't reasonably be held

responsible for your mental states neither then nor now.

Who is taking advantage of whom, anyway?

Since exorcism originated with the Catholic Church, it is

rarely practiced. Until a decade ago, there was only one

such exorcist in all of the USA. According to ABC news,

http://abcnews.go.co.../story?id=92541

there are about ten now. Still, contrary to the misleading

headline, "actual demonic possession is extremely rare."

That isn't to suggest that I put much stock in either today's

Church nor mainstream media. Both are compromised by

the same family that took over, worldwide, the financial

operations of the former in 1823. Corruption, slow to take

hold until after the death of Pope Pius X, has escalated

greatly subsequent to Vatican II or, approximately, the mid

1960s.

[aka CAT]

What does extradimensional or interdimensional mean what people talk about these "entities"?

I keep hearing those phrases but I don't know what they mean exactly or how people conclude that ghosts and demons were "extra-dimensional".

Who was the first person or people to conclude that demons and ghosts were extra-dimensional, what does that exactly mean and how did they determine it?

The interface between our and other worlds is sometimes likened to a mirror or, as in the case of a ouija board, a window.

Granted similes are merely models, both mirror and window represent a medium between separate sets of dimensions, i.e.

dimensions of ours and those of otherworldly "entities." The sets of dimensions are thought to correspond in the case of a

metaphorical mirror, though that needn't be the case with a figurative window. For example, while the faithful consider the

Holy Spirit omnipresent, they believe other spirits to be confined to one of, typically, few spirit realms. Such realms are, in

general, described in terms relative to one's being higher or lower than another.

No, but there's a good chance these forums will be see an upsurge in tall tales about people's experience with their Xmas ouija boards.

Regardless of what anyone might or might not believe in regard to ouija boards, I previously stated the fact that two aunts of mine

used an ouija board to spell out the first, middle and last name of my prospective mate when I was kindergartener. I remembered,

because, then, the first name was the name of my grandma's dog, the second was the name of an uncle that seemed frighteningly

overmuch like a giant to me, as a little girl, and the last name was the same as that of a freckle-faced boy toward whom I was aloof.

[aka CAT]

There were so many funny comments herein this thread that I just might go back and 'like' them.

Edited December 9, 2014 by aka CAT

[JesseCuster]

considering that 99%+ of our universe is unobservable to us, it's always seemed odd to me to be too certain about.... anything.

It's not odd at all. There's plenty of things you can be certain of beyond any sort of reasonable doubt. Does the fact that so many things are unknown to mankind mean that you shouldn't be certain that the sun will rise in the east and set in the west tomorrow as opposed to the other way round?

[JesseCuster]

The interface between our and other worlds is sometimes likened to a mirror or, as in the case of a ouija board, a window.

Granted similes are merely models, both mirror and window represent a medium between separate sets of dimensions, i.e.

dimensions of ours and those of otherworldly "entities." The sets of dimensions are thought to correspond in the case of a

metaphorical mirror, though that needn't be the case with a figurative window. For example, while the faithful consider the

Holy Spirit omnipresent, they believe other spirits to be confined to one of, typically, few spirit realms. Such realms are, in

general, described in terms relative to one's being higher or lower than another.

I gotta be honest, I've no idea what that means. It's just a string of gibberish to me.

[freetoroam]

I am going with Jesse on some of these "explanations"....surely it can not be that complicated....no wonder the ghosts are not coming, when they see what is expected of them, if it means they have to make contact by a dimensional metaphorically interfacial transgration within an extradimensional theoretically existance with an added goldfish....WTF are you lot on?

[Occult1]

I am going with Jesse on some of these "explanations"....surely it can not be that complicated....no wonder the ghosts are not coming, when they see what is expected of them, if it means they have to make contact by a dimensional metaphorically interfacial transgration within an extradimensional theoretically existance with an added goldfish....WTF are you lot on?

There is really nothing complicated with the basic definition of the term 'extra-dimensional'. Anything that find it's origin beyond the 3 dimensions (4 with time) we are familiar with would be 'extra-dimensional'. That's pretty much it...You can stop there. Accepting the possiblity that 'entities' might exist than such hypothesis could explain why we don't see them everyday, or for most of us at all in a lifetime and the difficulties to objectively measure and quantify the phenomenon. Some people have their own subdefinitions or interpretations based on various sources (science, esoterism, occultism, ect..) with such controversial topics that is to be expected but if you stick to the semantic of the word there is nothing complicated. Unless of course, the intent is to dismiss the whole thing as nonsens, since these 'things' cannot exist anyway.

Edited December 9, 2014 by sam_comm

[Nyx83]

Funny, but to be fair board games and ouija boards, are two completely different things. As different as playing monopoly and actually running a corporation. If the spirit world were a real thing which could have a negative impact on your life then laughing it off is like laughing off heroine use.

Just saying.

Edit to add my own experience with ouija. At the age of 12 or 13 my cousin and I made our own ouija board and used it for a couple of days. At first nothing happened and we were going to forget it and then it started working. We both thought the other was moving the occulous at first but after a while I felt that what was happening was real. At one point we asked about our own deaths. It told me I would die the day before me 80th birthday while watching TV. It started saying some messed up things and when my cousin asked who we were talking to it said satan. We put the board away and two day later burned it. The flames were green. It was made of cardboard so that could just be a chemical thing but it didn't seem like it. That was many years ago and my actual memories on this are dim, but I've related the story enough times that I still remember these details.

OK, let the mocking's begin. I can take it.

I believe you!. No mocking from me. I'm scared of them and mine turned green when i burned it too. Probably a chemical reaction as you said. These things are not toys.

[Nyx83]

Has anyone read the article on what happened when the board was being patented?. The patent guys knew the story on it and they asked it questions no one but them knew. Now..remember the board guy and the patent guys did not know each other.Never met. But that board KNEW every answer exactly.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Nyx83

[CrimsonKing]

Who needs Ouija boards to get into some kind of trouble this Christmas?

I will have all the help i need...

Because im going to be visited by the spirits of Johnnie Walker,Jack Daniels,and Jim Beam!

[quiXilver]

I'm far more concerned about the living.

They do more damage.

[Duck33]

Has anyone read the article on what happened when the board was being patented?. The patent guys knew the story on it and they asked it questions no one but them knew. Now..remember the board guy and the patent guys did not know each other.Never met. But that board KNEW every answer exactly.

I think you'd need to link to that article before anyone could respond.

[Ralaman]

Sometimes......when I touch myself.....I can feel the other side.....

of your mom!!!

BAM!!!

[HVBovoidell]

I've used a spirit board before, not sure if there's a difference between a spirit or ouija board but nonetheless the experiences I've had have been life changing. I've read about scientific explanations, something about your subconscious mind telling you what you want to hear - which I do believe to be true, however I believe some things can't quite be explained by modern science just yet.

Either way, these things aren't toys.

[Duck33]

I sleep with an Ouija board under my bed, forgetting it's even there. The power of the Ouija is directly proportional to the imagination of the individual/s concerned.

[spud the mackem]

I have seen many a tear around the table because daddy would not let little johnny (names have been changed) off with the fine which he could not afford when he landed on Mayfair.....all good fun though.

I save "get out of jail cards", because...well you never know.haha

I taught my kids to play chess, and told them you will be good when you beat me, and I never accidently let them win, now they whip my ass everytime we play. its not fair haha. The youngest became the school chess champion 3 years running..

[freetoroam]

I save "get out of jail cards", because...well you never know.haha

I taught my kids to play chess, and told them you will be good when you beat me, and I never accidently let them win, now they whip my ass everytime we play. its not fair haha. The youngest became the school chess champion 3 years running..

Now that is certainly something to be proud of. You should be proud for what you accomplished by your teaching and obviously, being proud of your youngest for becoming a champion player. Well done.

Now thats what should be accomplished by playing board games, positivity, education, fun and learning how to deal with winning and losing.

[seaturtlehorsesnake]

Re: your depression and childhood fears, my sympathy.

The latter was probably more due to the media, e.g. scary

movies. Responsible guardians are to do their best to both

shield minors from age inappropriate content and counter

their groundless anxieties with consoling facts, whereas

strangers, unacquainted with you, can't reasonably be held

responsible for your mental states neither then nor now.

for what it's worth, i wasn't saying that they were responsible. i was saying that they (intentionally or unintentionally) take advantage of people who are in that kind of position.

[JesseCuster]

'Spirit' or 'demon' is really a case of names given to something people don't know what else to give a name to, due to religious history of calling these type of weird events and unknown 'evil'. You're kind of following these archaic rules by thinking that some type of awareness or supposed communication with something unknown is a 'demon', 'angel', 'alien', etc., when a better potential descriptive term is just 'something'.

It's pretty apparent that you are basing your understanding of all that is through what we have learned about physics and concepts through science and its theories. This is fine, and the popular accepted 'correct' way of thinking.

And the understanding of demons and ghosts as being "something" that is from parallel universes, exists in different "higher" or "lower" planes, or in different spatial dimensions (at this stage I don't even know what I'm arguing against such are the vague and contradictory things people are saying) is based on what exactly?

Because it seems to me to be nothing but idle speculation that y'all don't seem to even agree on. I picked up on the word "extradimensional" because I suspected it was being thrown around without any clear idea of what it meant, if it meant anything, and all that has been done is to prove me right.

But some people are simply entertaining possibilities without the need to stick to those rules,

Exactly. It's just idle speculation without any factual basis.

Nothing wrong with that, I'm just calling for a spade to be called a spade instead of calling it a horticultural earth moving implement.

It's harder to scientifically follow a process to understand and draw data on the abstract realm of possibilities. That's what philosophy is for.

"Abstract realm of possibilities". A fancy way of saying idle speculation.

The reason I posted in this thread was to question the use and meaning of the word "extra-dimensional", suspecting that it wasn't anything with an agreed upon meaning, if it meant anything at all and this thread has just proved me right. Someone says it might refer to parallel universes like described in M-theory, some say it's a general phrase to refer to things beyond our understanding - beyond the "dimensions of reality", someone else refers to "higher" and "lower" planes where spiritual beings live, another vague reference was made to spatial dimensions. Like I said, a meaningless phrase thrown around paranormal forums by people who haven't defined it and don't agree on what it means.

Anyway, I'm outta this thread and back to my scientism and rigid scientific thinking. Can't get enough of that cliché being thrown at me. Ask what a phrase means and the validity of its use and question the contradictory answers and you're some sort of science worshipper incapable of thinking outside the box.