Siege in Sydney CBD

[acidhead]

That depends on if the citizens support said action or noandt.

What do you need a ban for when you have education? I think a better word would be redundancy, don't you? I stated earlier that historical record should be preserved so we learn from these lessons.

Its going to take time. Not something easily implemented over night so to speak. It needs to be voluntary to bear fruit.

[psyche101]

I saw a nasty little creature, a rapist and a murderer using religion as an excuse for his villainy.

You're right though, he's hardly alone. My lot have their fair share (I have members of my family who were involved in STARTING the IRA after all). Islam has it's fair share. There are even Buddhist zealots in Taiwan (or is it Burma/Myanmar?).

But I'm an individualist, I hold the individual responsible. I don't buy the "he made me do it!" argument from my students and I certainly don't buy it from adults.

I honestly do not think you are looking at this from an unbiased point of view, but one biased by religion.

If that reason was not there, then they would have to face reality, and not call out to God while they slaughter. They have to face the fact their thoughts are sick, and they need to be locked away from society for everyones good. Religion as an excuse would be gone, along with radicalisation of youth deliberately teaching the wrong message with the blessing of apologetics. These animals claim that are doing Gods work, they won't have their God to hide behind any longer.

For instance, the Koran says:

SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

LINK

Do you honestly feel that is easily interpreted as peaceful or loving, and how does that sort of "religious verse" not inspire violence?

He does not need other religions, Islam has plenty of bad associated with it, how often do we hear of Islamic inspired violence? Anthony Mundine stood out front of Lakemba Mosque and stated that the US deserved 911, but he is not what you would call a radical Muslim is he now? The Religion inspires people toward hate, and people think my protest is hate for pointing that out! I think it forces people to look in the mirror. But why would someone like Mundine advocate the slaughter of millions if not for this religion? What about Hilali calling Aussie women uncovered meat? He was the highest authority Islam has here in Australia, why defend that? What good has Islam done for the Globe? Christianity gave the globe missionaries, what has Islam done? To me it looks like it inspires people to kill others. You can call this man a grub all you like, but we both know I can quote many Islamic inspired killings that result in the deaths of thousands over the last ten years. That's not individual.

You may not buy the excuse, but as long as we have Islam, we will have radical Islam, unless Islam takes the move to distance itself from it, and accepts accountability for how the Koran is used we always will. And I take no comfort in that fact many will die in the name of Islam yet, maybe even you or I, but you do not buy the excuse.

Edited December 16, 2014 by psyche101

[psyche101]

Its going to take time. Not something easily implemented over night so to speak. It needs to be voluntary to bear fruit.

Indeed.

With all due respect good sir, that is pretty much exactly what I said in post #39 LINK

[pallidin]

Perhaps this conversation should be on it's own thread. It would be an interesting talk.

[psyche101]

Perhaps this conversation should be on it's own thread. It would be an interesting talk.

Why? Do you find it not related? The terrorist is dead, the siege is over, innocent Aussies died under an Islamic flag. Not much more to say on that situation now. I think it is a great time to ask, why do we have religion? What does it do for the modern world? It seems to cause more death and suffering than anything.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Mundine's a d******** who goes about looking for ways to make people hate him so he can beat his chest about how oppressed he is.

[+Link of Hyrule]

But when religions are a vehicle for radicalization shouldn't they bear some of the culpability?

if I kill someone for not worshiping Voldemort should J.K. Rowling be held accountable for my action?

Why should an institution dedicated largely to peace be held accountable because one of its adherents joins a political extremist faction and thinks murdering people is a good thing? What if I'm an employee with a corporation and the CEO holds a meeting to discuss ways to eliminate competition on their product. I begin a terrorist cell to literally eliminate the competition, should the CEO be accountable for what I hypothetically did in the name of his company?

[pallidin]

if I kill someone for not worshiping Voldemort should J.K. Rowling be held accountable for my action?

Why should an institution dedicated largely to peace be held accountable because one of its adherents joins a political extremist faction and thinks murdering people is a good thing? What if I'm an employee with a corporation and the CEO holds a meeting to discuss ways to eliminate competition on their product. I begin a terrorist cell to literally eliminate the competition, should the CEO be accountable for what I hypothetically did in the name of his company?

Right. The individual(s) mis-interpreting and radicalizing the CEO's comments should be held accountable, not the entire corporation.

That's just common sense.

[acidhead]

if I kill someone for not worshiping Voldemort should J.K. Rowling be held accountable for my action?

Why should an institution dedicated largely to peace be held accountable because one of its adherents joins a political extremist faction and thinks murdering people is a good thing? What if I'm an employee with a corporation and the CEO holds a meeting to discuss ways to eliminate competition on their product. I begin a terrorist cell to literally eliminate the competition, should the CEO be accountable for what I hypothetically did in the name of his company?

Caveat Emptor.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Careful, you sound judgmental there, you don't do that do you?

Making an observation, nothing more.

Straight answer, Yes it does. Who bloody cares?

No mate, all I am watching out for is apologetics that will allow this to continue to happen just so that a minority group can worship an imaginary being. Taming the severity of the incident down for the sake of worship is wrong. You refuse to accept people not only fear this action, but many are offended that Australian Hospitality cost the lives of good Australians for no good reason at all, it just so a bunch of people can worship an imaginary being. A soft stance is why this killer was on the streets to begin with. If you had just been subject to the dark side if Islam, would you honestly take comfort in the fact a group of people praying to the same God that murderer is appeasing by his interpretation? How do you know the moderate Muslims interpret the Koran correctly and these scum do not? People assume that ethics are what makes the difference when it comes down to it don't they?

That you feel this has no impact on the face of Islam as a whole just makes me think you only want to look at a very small part of the problem, and being a religious man, want to absolve "religion". I think you need to think more about the thousands of innocents killed by radical Islam in the last decade and put that into perspective - what does Islam give to the globe? How do we benefit by allowing such great freedoms to a religion to a point where many die every year?

You are using hatred as a cover for that which you fear to face. I am just saying what a great many are thinking but are too scared to say. The same thing as people calling a fear of Islam "racist" when that term is simply ridiculous. A Radical Muslim can come from any country.

Leave aside the ineptitude of our legal system, many people are on parole when they probably shouldn't be - it was only a couple of years ago now that a convicted rapist was paroled only to rape and murder a journalist in Melbourne. There are many reasons people aren't in prison where they should be. Let's cut to the chase. Unless a Muslim went down to Martin Place with a megaphone to tell the terrorist he was wrong you're just going to chalk it up to political correctness. All these condemnations mean squat because in your world they're just doing it to deflect away from themselves and facilitate the further murder of innocents later.

We both live in the same country but apparently weer livein different worlds. I prefer mine, it upholds that humanity as a whole is striving for peace and unity rather than hate. Funny, as one who believes in "sin" and the absolute fallen nature of humanity compared to your atheism why is my faith in humanity greater than yours?

Edited December 16, 2014 by Paranoid Android

[pallidin]

I think it is a great time to ask, why do we have religion? What does it do for the modern world? It seems to cause more death and suffering than anything.

No, it's not appropriate. This thread was/is specific to the Sydney event, not the question of religion as a whole.

That should be an entirely different thread. Inclusive of these events if you wish. But not here.

[S2F]

if I kill someone for not worshiping Voldemort should J.K. Rowling be held accountable for my action?

Why should an institution dedicated largely to peace be held accountable because one of its adherents joins a political extremist faction and thinks murdering people is a good thing? What if I'm an employee with a corporation and the CEO holds a meeting to discuss ways to eliminate competition on their product. I begin a terrorist cell to literally eliminate the competition, should the CEO be accountable for what I hypothetically did in the name of his company?

If there were several incidences of extremism coming from that particular company then yes, absolutely. These extremist acts in the name of Islam aren't isolated one-off events. They are indicative of a trend. One that should be responsibly addressed by religious leaders instead of acting like they have nothing to do with it. I'm not talking about punishing the rest of Islam for the misdeeds of a few. I'm talking about personal responsibility across all of Islam. If something I created or promoted caused harm to others, even inadvertently, then I would accept responsibility for that and work to correct it. I don't think that is too much to ask of Islam, or any other religion or organization, not by a long shot.

[pallidin]

If there were several incidences of extremism coming from that particular company then yes, absolutely. These extremist acts in the name of Islam aren't isolated one-off events. They are indicative of a trend. One that should be responsibly addressed by religious leaders instead of acting like they have nothing to do with it. I'm not talking about punishing the rest of Islam for the misdeeds of a few. I'm talking about personal responsibility across all of Islam. If something I created or promoted caused harm to others, even inadvertently, then I would accept responsibility for that and work to correct it. I don't think that is too much to ask of Islam, or any other religion or organization, not by a long shot.

Regarding the Sydney event, it is patently unfair to thus label all Australian muslims as "bad" or "potentially bad"

Edited December 16, 2014 by pallidin

[S2F]

Regarding the Sydney event, it is patently unfair to thus label all Muslims as "bad" or "potentially bad"

I think you may be misunderstanding me as that is not what I'm saying at all.

[psyche101]

if I kill someone for not worshiping Voldemort should J.K. Rowling be held accountable for my action?

Does JK Rowling state you should kill others who do not read her books? If so, then yes. That is hate mongering.

Why should an institution dedicated largely to peace be held accountable because one of its adherents joins a political extremist faction and thinks murdering people is a good thing? What if I'm an employee with a corporation and the CEO holds a meeting to discuss ways to eliminate competition on their product. I begin a terrorist cell to literally eliminate the competition, should the CEO be accountable for what I hypothetically did in the name of his company?

Because it provides the means, but not the education. And Radical Islam is big enough to be considered an entity of it's own.

Edited December 16, 2014 by psyche101

[pallidin]

*** snip ***

Edited December 16, 2014 by pallidin

[pallidin]

I think you may be misunderstanding me as that is not what I'm saying at all.

OK, my bad.

[S2F]

OK, my bad.

No problem, perhaps I didn't make my point as clearly as I could have.

I see it more like the responsibility that a parent has for their children. If a child breaks a neighbors window the parent takes responsibility and then teaches the child what they did wrong. They don't just shrug and say 'kids will be kids'.

[Gunn]

Education is the key to ending religion as a whole. Why ban the Koran only?

Education helps and it's a start, but it will not end religion as a whole. When you think you've gotten rid of one religion, yet another will eventually rise in it's place. If you look at history you will see where one religion faded away to a mere nothing, but another gain popularity soon after that. There is no way humanity will ever remove religion from the minds of every person on the face of the earth, even from those who try to do it by force.

A good example of this is when the white man tried to educate and civilize the American Indian through suggestion and force and yet they still hold on to old superstitions and spiritual beliefs. Granted they're civilized, but they still celebrate their religious or spiritual beliefs every year all through the year. Even the Aboriginal Australians still hold on to their traditions in your country, yet you've educated them and civilized them.

But even several thousand years from now when Islam and Christianity have faded away, there will always be individuals and groups, even in farthest reaches of space, that will want to believe in something beyond their scope of reality; if there are still humans around and we've gotten off this rock by then.

I know you got a dream for the whole world to be completely free from religion, Psyche101, but only in a perfect world, brother, only in a perfect world.

[pallidin]

Say, does anyone have an update on the health of the victim hostages?

Perhaps it's not a medical release at this time?

[pallidin]

But even several thousand years from now when Islam and Christianity have faded away, there will always be individuals and groups, even in farthest reaches of space, that will want to believe in something beyond their scope of reality; if there are still humans around and we've gotten off this rock by then.

Well said.

Edited December 16, 2014 by pallidin

[pallidin]

Religion may change, but the desire for it cannot be destroyed.

Edited December 16, 2014 by pallidin

[psyche101]

Making an observation, nothing more.

Oh, I get that, I did the very same thing. Does not answer the question though. I see what you did there.

Leave aside the ineptitude of our legal system, many people are on parole when they probably shouldn't be - it was only a couple of years ago now that a convicted rapist was paroled only to rape and murder a journalist in Melbourne. There are many reasons people aren't in prison where they should be.

Indeed, but what was their inspiration, a book, a sick mind, or both?

Let's cut to the chase. Unless a Muslim went down to Martin Place with a megaphone to tell the terrorist he was wrong you're just going to chalk it up to political correctness. All these condemnations mean squat because in your world they're just doing it to deflect away from themselves and facilitate the further murder of innocents later.

No, quite frankly I expected you to have picked up more than that, but your love for religion has blinded you, and dare I say it, you seem miffed!! I never thought that day could come!

You are not listening, what I am saying is why bother to care if Muslims are praying for innocents - see, you seem to think others see value in prayers, many such as myself face reality and do not care for prayers. They do squat. People still died no matter how many prayers were said. It is patently ridiculous to love Islam in one breath, and be killed by it in another despite the fact two different people are involved. Do you honestly think for one second a single hostage cared about the Muslim communities prayers? Did it help the victims? It's what inspired the sicko to begin with, and that seems compounding the hurt to me, and for sure, if I was a hostage, I would not want Muslim Prayers for a situation where a Muslim holds a gun to my head. I do not care if Muslims see that as bad, I just want to see it gone altogether.

Again, I ask yet another, why is it worth defending at all? Who cares? If you want to be part of a religion that has been tainted by evil factions interpreting your faith in an alternate way, and refuse to distance yourself, live with it. Otherwise move on.

We both live in the same country but apparently weer livein different worlds. I prefer mine, it upholds that humanity as a whole is striving for peace and unity rather than hate. Funny, as one who believes in "sin" and the absolute fallen nature of humanity compared to your atheism why is my faith in humanity greater than yours?

Ohh for sure we do, I do not have rose colored glasses in my world.

You do not even understand the word hate from what I read in this paragraph, with all due respect, I have said religion is useless, nothing about the people, you lot are making those distinctions yourself, it is often misused, taught badly far too often if taught at all in certain parts that breed killers. I have asked you and others, what good has it brought? How can it be "The Truth"? Does that mean your God is a load of cobblers? An Islamic Scholar will tell you so wont he, and you think not wanting this stupid love fest is hate? I find it childish, and contradicts exactly what happened.

Again, why would anyone take comfort in a bunch of Muslims praying to their God when your life is in peril, I mean WTF.

I think you people that have to make the distinction between radical Islam, and Islam are full of hate, people are people, why do we need to ride on a bus to suck up to every person of that faith and go "ohh, I know it's not your fault" and pat their hand reassuringly, hell, Man the Freak Up and just call a spade a spade. If we did that, someone might have knocked this scumbag out of the picture long ago.

What about Islam's love for the Gay community? I saw a Islamic Offical tell a gay man he would never be accepted by Islam and that's that. Change die, or lie for life and burn in hell - great options hey. You change or you are condemned. I mean, good thing you are spreading the love, there seems to be little in return, but plenty of prayer.

In your world, people die being all loving and not facing reality. Just like last night. Mate, I don't want a world where people die for stupid ideal of an imaginary being. I live in a world where people are accountable, and face their responsibility, and do things that actually help each other, like during the flood when we all chucked in a hand, not some bloody stupid prayer. And that is where I get real work done. If I was more of a hippy, I might be on the dole spreading love and growing flowers, but lets face it, who does that help? Nobody. We live in a community, not a poem.

Yes, your faith in humanity is certainly greater than mine, mine has been eaten away by watching far too many turn out to support slaughtering animals just like this. Like at Bali. But that is because I face reality, and you are wearing rose coloured glasses. Mate, ignoring the real problems in the world does not make them go away, neither does wishing or praying for it. You are not making the world a better place by pretending it is all rosy. It's not.

Edited December 16, 2014 by psyche101

[pallidin]

A community of atheists is a community of anarchists. An individual atheist is fine.

[S2F]

A community of atheists is a community of anarchists. An individual atheist is fine.

I don't know about that. Atheists still have social and moral values. Those aren't the sole property of religions although they like people to think so.