Something Odd in my Driveway

[+DieChecker]

Have you tried other materials in the circle? Bits of paper, or bread? See if they also are drier/damper then the surrounding area.

[bison]

At your suggestion, I set out absorbent paper towels on the circle and a normally damp location on the gravel, last evening. Just checked them. Both appeared completely damp.

I weighed them on a sensitive scale. The one from the control point was about 17 percent heavier than the one from the circle, presumably due to a greater amount of moisture it contained. This is the opposite of what might have been expected, as the circle has for few days appeared damper than its surroundings, in the morning, drying out later.

Another puzzling observation-- Though the paper from the control position presumably contains more moisture, the rectangle in the gravel under the paper in the circle is visibly dryer than the similar spot at the control location. This seems to suggest that the paper in the circle absorbed more moisture, not less. Figures:

Weight of dry paper towel = 1 gram

Weight of damp paper towel at control position= 7 grams

Weight of damp paper towel from circle= 6 grams

Interpreting these results will, it seems, require additional thought.

[+DieChecker]

Or maybe there was less moisture inside the circle to be absorbed?

What could prevent moisture (presumable including the air) from entering a small specific area? I don't know yet...

I wonder what would happen if you experimented with a tarp of some kind? Maybe a clear tarp that you could look through to determine any differences between the circle and outside area?

[theotherguy]

Oh, man. I wish I had seen this thread earlier. First of all, excellent research and testing, bison.

My cement driveway has something similar happen when it rains. It's one large panel, which gets wet normally. Next to the road, it's several smaller panels. Most of these get wet normally, but a couple have semicircular sections almost completely dry. The lower edge of the panel is the diameter of the semicircle. I thought that maybe those panels drained differently, but now I'm wondering.

I'll come back with more details and try some of bison's tests and compare notes with this thread.

[bison]

Thanks for those kind words, theotherguy. I like your quotation from Dr. Asimov. That's how this thread started; I looked at that dry circle, where the gravel had been wet, right up to that point in time, and thought-- 'that's funny'. I don't know where this will lead, maybe nowhere, but the pursuit of the mystery is the thing.

[bison]

Placed some transparent plastic sheets over part of the circle, and a usually damp control location, last evening. Checked the situation this morning. Due to drier weather yesterday, and early this morning, the dry circle has begun to appear again. It is a bit smaller than before, and somewhat irregular, around the edges.

Moisture condensed, only on the underside of the plastic sheets. The one over the circle collected much less moisture than the one over the damp control location.

Due to drier weather now, and predicted for the next few days, I venture to predict that the dry circle in otherwise damp gravel, seen in the morning, will reappear in full.

Considering the disappearance, and then gradual return of the dry gravel circle over the past few days, a few observations are possible. The circle is apparently able to eliminate a moderate amount of moisture from itself, but can be overwhelmed by greater amounts of water. Once overwhelmed by moisture, it seems to retain dampness more than is usual for the rest of the gravel.

Where the moisture goes, or how it is dispensed with, when the circle is dry, or why it reverses its behavior and retains more water than usual when sufficiently dampened, or how it does this, I don't know.

I might be willing to ascribe this all to some peculiar quirk of local geology, but knowing that it began only two and a half weeks ago, and also knowing that the ground had not been disturbed at that time, this seems improbable.

[+DieChecker]

A truly Unexplained Mystery.

Can't say we didn't try.

[bison]

I had a supposition that something rising from, or descending upon the dry gravel circle might be connected to its creation and maintenance. To test this idea, I placed an open umbrella, set up on a tripod, about three feet above the circle, yesterday evening. I checked the situation this morning. No apparent change, due to the umbrella. The circle is more distinct than yesterday, but, as I indicated before, this was expected, due to the fact that dryer, sunnier weather has now ensued.

I will do some more probing with rods, today, to see if any sort of hollow area can be discerned below the circle, which might affect the distribution of moisture. I will judge the results by the difficulty, or lack of it, in driving the rods into the ground, and also by a series of measurements, at various depths, of the electrical resistance between two separated rods.

[Merc14]

Have you thought about a trail cam or webcam with infra red capabilities to see if anything is going on?

[bison]

Perhaps a good sized wild animal laying in there at night, and turning about, so as to make a circle? Probably not. I can see the circle gradually appear over a number of hours in the evening, as dampness settles in around it. The same process presumably continues all night, and is at its most obvious in the morning, before the moisture evaporates.

The results of my probing the gravel with steel rods yesterday didn't reveal anything unusual. Hard and more yielding areas of soil were found at various depths, seemingly distributed at random, both inside and outside the circle. If the rods were driven deep enough ~ 6 to 12 inches, the electrical resistance became too high to measure, presumably because moisture, which aids electrical conductivity, hadn't penetrated that deep. This held true for both the circle and the surrounding area.

Edited January 23, 2015 by bison

[Merc14]

Perhaps a good sized wild animal laying in there at night, and turning about, so as to make a circle? Probably not. I can see the circle gradually appear over a number of hours in the evening, as dampness settles in around it. The same process presumably continues all night, and is at its most obvious in the morning, before the moisture evaporates.

The results of my probing the gravel with steel rods yesterday didn't reveal anything unusual. Hard and more yielding areas of soil were found at various depths, seemingly distributed at random, both inside and outside the circle. If the rods were driven deep enough ~ 6 to 12 inches, the electrical resistance became too high to measure, presumably because moisture, which aids electrical conductivity, hadn't penetrated that deep. This held true for both the circle and the surrounding area.

No, not an animal but something. I'm grasping at straws here because I'm out of ideas. I can't even find something similar on the internet.

[bison]

An unattended infrared camera is worth considering. I would first like to develop some evidence that an unknown 'something', presumably a discrete object, even if not an animal, is involved.

In case there is a 'something', nature unknown, that affects the circle at times, and causes it to remain dry, I'll set up a sheet metal enclosure over part of the circle, that may prevent the supposed effect. The sides are vertical, and the horizontal top is about 13 inches above the gravel.

The sheet metal would presumably deflect any unusual, nocturnal source of external heating, which might be drying the gravel. Either that, or the metal would be heated enough to heat the air inside and perhaps cause the gravel to dry, but this time in the shape of the enclosure, a right-angle triangle, rather than a circle.

Edited January 23, 2015 by bison

[Merc14]

An unattended infrared camera is worth considering. I would first like to develop some evidence that an unknown 'something', presumably a discrete object, even if not an animal, is involved.

In case there is a 'something', nature unknown, that affects the circle at times, and causes it to remain dry, I'll set up a sheet metal enclosure over part of the circle, that may prevent the supposed effect. The sides are vertical, and the horizontal top is about 13 inches above the gravel.

The sheet metal would presumably deflect any unusual, nocturnal source of external heating, which might be drying the gravel. Either that, or the metal would be heated enough to heat the air inside and perhaps cause the gravel to dry, but this time in the shape of the enclosure, a right-angle triangle, rather than a circle.

This is actually a great idea as it could be a way of conducting other experiments where half the circle is exposed and the other half treated in some way. A couple of possibilities:

1. An enclosure (sheet metal or plexiglass) over half of the circle with a bag of dry ice on the top to keep it much colder than the other side.

2. Same set up but with some kind of heat source over the enclosure to warm the area.

3. Your set up where you are just blocking it from anything settling on the protected area but it is still open to the same air as the other side.

You wouldn't be touching the circle but would be changing its environment

[back to earth]

A very good idea. Thank you, Die Checker. Something very absorbent below ground that draws water away from the surface, until it becomes saturated, and then releases excess moisture, under certain conditions. That would cover most of the facts. I'll try taking a core sample.

Bingo !

(Great thread, I have enjoyed reading it )

I have only read this far (so far) and I have thought that is developing ... you guys have been missing something in the logic here ... but NOW you are getting close !

You have been thinking heat and evaporation instead of osmosis.

Now, what starts in a circle as a process and moves into an expanding ring around where that circle was ?

... Now

[back to earth]

Pounded a thin-walled, but reasonably study metal tube 27 inches down into the middle of the circle. Pulled it out again and pried the contents out with a screwdriver and a steel rod, and set them out an a sheet of newspaper. Found the usual sort of mineralized, rocky soil we have on this hillside. Damp soil, crumbly rock, a few larger pieces of harder rock, all mixed together. No apparent pockets of wood or other organic materials that might absorb, and release moisture.

No they are invisible ..... well, nearly invisible .

[back to earth]

The circle is apparently able to eliminate a moderate amount of moisture from itself, but can be overwhelmed by greater amounts of water. Once overwhelmed by moisture, it seems to retain dampness more than is usual for the rest of the gravel.

Where the moisture goes, or how it is dispensed with, when the circle is dry, or why it reverses its behavior and retains more water than usual when sufficiently dampened, or how it does this, I don't know.

I might be willing to ascribe this all to some peculiar quirk of local geology, but knowing that it began only two and a half weeks ago, and also knowing that the ground had not been disturbed at that time, this seems improbable.

'Local geology is full of all sorts of stuff the migrate in and out

IMO as we go on, it is getting clearer ... and also IMO one cant compare concrete driveways or other substances, made made mixes or not.

[back to earth]

No, not an animal but something. I'm grasping at straws here because I'm out of ideas. I can't even find something similar on the internet.

animals teeenie little fellahs

[bison]

No obvious changes to the circle this morning, after covering part of it with a sheet metal container yesterday. This seems to demonstrate that whatever caused the circle need not affect it each night, in order to maintain its dryness.

I've already determined that dry gravel from the circle, taken and placed with gravel that is damp each morning, loses its ability to repel, or otherwise dispense with moisture.

The same result seems to indicate that nothing clinging to the gravel, such as fungal growth, or some chemical, is conferring persistent dryness on that gravel.

The location of the circle, rather than the material in it, seems to be the key. This location appears to have been, on the night of January 4 -5, when this all started, the focus of some activity, nature unknown, that caused the persistent dryness of the gravel.

Edited January 24, 2015 by bison

[Sakari]

Have you tried to call the closest University, that has a geology department?

[bison]

For the third day, I have placed the sheet metal enclosure over different parts of the dry gravel circle, trying to see if it would have any effect, such as blocking a supposed process that keeps the circle dry. There has been no discernible change in the circle.

I have made a cursory examination of the gravel inside and outside the circle, breaking open the small rock fragments. It appears that the gravel in the circle has a darker interior than that from outside. I brought the samples into a heated room and examined them again several hours later. The colors had not changed. I am satisfied that absorption of moisture is not the explanation.

I will follow this up with a much larger number of samples, to see if this preliminary finding can be confirmed. If this difference in the gravel holds true generally, it probably has some significance to the problem of the circle.

This finding, if it holds up, seems to contradict previous evidence. This seemed to support the conclusion that the location, rather than the substance of the gravel itself was the key to the phenomenon.

I'll look into the possibility of contacting a nearby university to see what, if anything, they might have to suggest.

[+DieChecker]

Does the inner circle, darker colored broken gravel have any scent to it? Different then the out of the circle gravel? Chemical smell?

[bison]

No, the circle has no particular smell, just like the rest of the gravel. I checked the circle for smell some time back, when I suspected that it might be due to oil. I was able to detect an oily smell in a patch where I know oil dripped from a car, in another part of the driveway. It left a dark stain and was quite obvious.

[+DieChecker]

No, the circle has no particular smell, just like the rest of the gravel. I checked the circle for smell some time back, when I suspected that it might be due to oil. I was able to detect an oily smell in a patch where I know oil dripped from a car, in another part of the driveway. It left a dark stain and was quite obvious.

I was wondering about the cracked gravel that you had brought inside.... If it had any smell.

[bison]

Oh. Okay. I see what you meant, now. The samples of gravel I broke into two pieces each, both from the circle and a control location smell alike. Very little smell, actually. What little there is, is a normal 'rock' smell.

[bison]

Drier conditions this morning make the dry gravel circle a little less obvious, by contrast, but it's still there.

Yesterday, I took ten samples of gravel from the circle, and ten from a nearby area that is typically damp in the morning. Each of these I broke in two with a small hammer. I brought these indoors and waited for several hours for any dampness to dissipate. I then examined the surfaces of each. The exteriors appeared very much alike. The interiors, revealed by the breaks were somewhat different.

I had arranged the breaks so that they all faced the same direction, and received the same light. The interiors of the circle gravel appeared significantly darker, on average, than those from the control area. I confirmed this by random arrangement, placing the gravel bits in two small cups, and shaking them. Every time this was done, darker interior surfaces were visible in the circle gravel, than in the control gravel.

I surmise by this result that some selective influence on the circle gravel has darkened its interior. It seems probable that this has some connection to the fact that this gravel remains dry, when the other gravel is damp.

I next contemplate heating control gravel to a high heat, directly in flame, and breaking it open to see if it has darkened inside, like the circle gravel.

Edited January 27, 2015 by bison