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Yamato

Free Community College is a Bad Idea

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Yamato

Let's ask a pro, someone who actually has real credentials

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Br Cornelius

To see what is required just to be on a German production line:

That's not even real engineering. Real engineering requires knowledge of complex computer modelling, high level mathematics and the ability to program sophisticated CAD machining. Thats what a sophisticated industry driven apprenticeship gives you. This represents the foundation of a highly successful economy and is what any successful country should be investing in.

Br Cornelius

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Harte

But the question is, "are you really training a workforce" or you simply going to produce a lot of folks with worthless degrees who will be working in the same kinds of jobs they could have had without the degree? If the government wants to support any kind of "free" education, then let it be training in the trades.

How many degreed persons are waiting tables or working in fast food today?

Free Community College is just another campaign ploy. Nothing more than that.

Of course, that doesn't mean they won't do it, but it's a setup, just like Obama's new plan to tax the rich even more.

Harte

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Sundew

The free lunch myth. Wait for it. It'll cost much more than estimated.

I like the quote attributed to Margaret Thatcher: "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."

There is always the law of unintended consequences when government promised to help. Obamacare was promised to lower premiums, that you could keep your insurance and your doctor, but in many cases that has proven to be a total falsehood. Insurance companies have dropped people from their rolls, premiums have skyrocketed, some patients are no longer covered, those that are are finding this "cheaper" plan has a huge, real life, economic cost. Yes, it may have helped some; it has also badly hurt others. It is another economic squeeze on the middle class. "Free" community college will be another tax burden. There is no free lunch, someone, somewhere will be paying for this. And government programs have a way of growing and becoming ever more expensive and onerous with time.

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Br Cornelius

What your all ignoring is that just about every job out there requires a high level of skills. If you invest as a country in those skills your economy prospers, if you do not then it declines.

As i have pointed out there are countries which invest in their citizens education because its good for the economy, then there is America and the UK who follow the opposite path and who's industrial base in in long term terminal decline.

Educate your population or face the consequences.

Br Cornelius

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F3SS

I'd much rather people be free to choose what they do and pay for it themselves and deal with the consequences rather than pay for people to choose something for free.

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F3SS

How many degreed persons are waiting tables or working in fast food today?

It happens all the time. That was one of my gripes with the tech school I went to. They graduate class after class after class several times a year of people from the same geographic area with the same degree. There's an overload of people who are actually paying for school and that's just one school in one field. Besides school isn't for everyone and traditional academic schooling isn't the key to a working country. You need the pipe fitters and the swinging hammers that academics look down on. Skilled trades are at least as important as if not more so than desk jobs to keep a country running. Do community colleges offer skilled trades classes? I assume here and there. Does one need 2-4 years of expensive education to become good at skilled trades, at least enough to earn a decent living? Probably not. It couldn't hurt but nothing beats learning on the job directly.

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Yamato

How many degreed persons are waiting tables or working in fast food today?

Free Community College is just another campaign ploy. Nothing more than that.

Of course, that doesn't mean they won't do it, but it's a setup, just like Obama's new plan to tax the rich even more.

Harte

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travelnjones

The problem with regular community college is its often becomes high school 2. Just someplace to go because that is all you know. I was like that for a couple of years. When my parents were paying for it, it was also pretty cheap at that time like 55 bucks a semester. I just didn't care and had no idea what I was doing.

After I had a job and a wife I went back and was serious. I\

I think Adam Corolla has some videos where he talks about Community College, his comments are similar.

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Br Cornelius

I personally don't think any person should be allowed to become a serious student until they have done a few ****ty jobs for a while. Only when you realise what a dead end looks like do you take your studies seriously. There would be almost no wasters and college drop out if people were just obliged to spend a few years in the real world. However since college is its own industry with different aims to the rest of the economy this aint going to happen any time soon.

Br Cornelius

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aztek

wow i can't believe i actually agree with you

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Harte

I personally don't think any person should be allowed to become a serious student until they have done a few ****ty jobs for a while. Only when you realise what a dead end looks like do you take your studies seriously. There would be almost no wasters and college drop out if people were just obliged to spend a few years in the real world. However since college is its own industry with different aims to the rest of the economy this aint going to happen any time soon.

Br Cornelius

I would tend to agree.

I could go along with this idea of Obama's for trade/tech schools though. It might eventually put a lot of people back to work that lost their jobs because their employer shut down.

Many European countries have a system where they seamlessly place students in vocational-type school settings. That's how it was done in Germany for a very long time. I don't know exactly how true that is today, but Germany has a pretty good economic structure because of this.

About half of my students can't work at the grade level they're in. They should spend their time more fruitfully learning to weld or do hair or whatever (both professions make more money that I typically do as a teacher) - you know, getting certifications, apprenticeships, etc.

Put them in community college, and you have two years of taxpayer money basically wasted.

Harte

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Michelle

I would tend to agree.

I could go along with this idea of Obama's for trade/tech schools though. It might eventually put a lot of people back to work that lost their jobs because their employer shut down.

Many European countries have a system where they seamlessly place students in vocational-type school settings. That's how it was done in Germany for a very long time. I don't know exactly how true that is today, but Germany has a pretty good economic structure because of this.

About half of my students can't work at the grade level they're in. They should spend their time more fruitfully learning to weld or do hair or whatever (both professions make more money that I typically do as a teacher) - you know, getting certifications, apprenticeships, etc.

Put them in community college, and you have two years of taxpayer money basically wasted.

Harte

I think so too. Obama is trying to get this passed on the premise Republicans in Tennessee have already supported it. The major difference is Tennessee is bringing the money in from the lottery fund. Obama has no clear plan on where the funds are going to come from on a national level.

Beyond graduating from high school, students who participate in the Tennessee Promise program will have to maintain a 2.0 grade point average, attend mandatory meetings, work with a mentor, and do community service. After they graduate two-year colleges, they can enroll in a four-year school as juniors.

The program, which is expected to cost about $34 million a year, will be paid for using $300 million in excess lottery reserve funds and by creating a $47 million endowment. The bill also lowers the state’s current scholarship for four-year colleges, which is funded with lottery money, from $4,000 to $3,500 for freshmen and sophomores, although it will increase to $4,500 for juniors and seniors.

cont...

http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/04/16/3427593/tennessee-free-college-tuition/

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Yamato

Michelle, the free community college you'd rather pay for is going to be paid for with capital gains tax increases and dividend tax increases. Enjoy!

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Michelle

Michelle, the free community college you'd rather pay for is going to be paid for with capital gains tax increases and dividend tax increases. Enjoy!

I haven't looked into it thoroughly, since my opinion doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. If you have any evidence of the money coming from any other source than the lottery I'd be glad to hear it.

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Yamato

I haven't looked into it thoroughly, since my opinion doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. If you have any evidence of the money coming from any other source than the lottery I'd be glad to hear it.

On the contrary, I have no evidence that Obama's "free" college you'd rather pay for is coming from the lottery. Do you?

As for evidence for what I'm saying you could start with reruns of the State of the Union address, or maybe just Google it.

To pay for the changes, the administration is proposing about $320 billion in new revenue over the next decade. Obama wants to wring more taxes from investment income -- capital gains and dividends -- which are taxed at a lower rate than ordinary earnings. Since wealthy Americans are more likely to derive income from investments, they'd bear the overwhelming weight of a higher rate on that type of profit.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/17/politics/obama-state-of-the-union-taxes/

Alright?

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acidhead

On the contrary, I have no evidence that Obama's "free" college you'd rather pay for is coming from the lottery. Do you?

As for evidence for what I'm saying you could start with reruns of the State of the Union address, or maybe just Google it.

To pay for the changes, the administration is proposing about $320 billion in new revenue over the next decade. Obama wants to wring more taxes from investment income -- capital gains and dividends -- which are taxed at a lower rate than ordinary earnings. Since wealthy Americans are more likely to derive income from investments, they'd bear the overwhelming weight of a higher rate on that type of profit.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/17/politics/obama-state-of-the-union-taxes/

Alright?

I watched the speech and was left with a liberal orgasm. As for his joke that he won the past campaigns: No you didn't. You didn't build that Obama. lol

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Michelle

I think so too. Obama is trying to get this passed on the premise Republicans in Tennessee have already supported it. The major difference is Tennessee is bringing the money in from the lottery fund. Obama has no clear plan on where the funds are going to come from on a national level.

On the contrary, I have no evidence that Obama's "free" college you'd rather pay for is coming from the lottery. Do you?

As for evidence for what I'm saying you could start with reruns of the State of the Union address, or maybe just Google it.

To pay for the changes, the administration is proposing about $320 billion in new revenue over the next decade. Obama wants to wring more taxes from investment income -- capital gains and dividends -- which are taxed at a lower rate than ordinary earnings. Since wealthy Americans are more likely to derive income from investments, they'd bear the overwhelming weight of a higher rate on that type of profit.

http://www.cnn.com/2...he-union-taxes/

Alright?

May I direct you to the bolded part of my statement? Tennessee is taking the funds from the lottery earnings. I don't advocate raising taxes across the board.

Edited by Michelle

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Yamato

Actually I was answering the bolded part of your statement Michelle. Then you asked for evidence and I provided it. Now instead of acknowledging that, you go back to your statement as if you didn't hear the answer and you're talking about Tennessee again. They're advocating raising taxes on investment income. The statement I cited from the source I provided is correct. It is not across the board. Again, "Since wealthy Americans are more likely to derive income from investments, they'd bear the overwhelming weight of a higher rate on that type of profit."

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White Crane Feather

almost all JCs have fee waivers and contracts for transferring lower division classes and GE units to major universities. If someone plays their cards right and is willing to work you can obtain a very cheap high level education from a descent university.

Edited by White Crane Feather

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acidhead

Actually I was answering the bolded part of your statement Michelle. Then you asked for evidence and I provided it. Now instead of acknowledging that, you go back to your statement as if you didn't hear the answer and you're talking about Tennessee again. They're advocating raising taxes on investment income. The statement I cited from the source I provided is correct. It is not across the board. Again, "Since wealthy Americans are more likely to derive income from investments, they'd bear the overwhelming weight of a higher rate on that type of profit."

I saw it too bud. Sorry Michelle. You're a sweetheart. But Yam was talking National level not State. I'm canadian and i saw that.

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Michelle

Actually I was answering the bolded part of your statement Michelle. Then you asked for evidence and I provided it. Now instead of acknowledging that, you go back to your statement as if you didn't hear the answer and you're talking about Tennessee again. They're advocating raising taxes on investment income. The statement I cited from the source I provided is correct. It is not across the board. Again, "Since wealthy Americans are more likely to derive income from investments, they'd bear the overwhelming weight of a higher rate on that type of profit."

I saw it too bud. Sorry Michelle. You're a sweetheart. But Yam was talking National level not State. I'm canadian and i saw that.

Okay, ya gotta give me break here...it's waaaay past my bedtime! :nw:

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DieChecker
After you do all of that it normally ends up being around $500 to $1000. I am only talking for myself and some close friends, but it simply ain't worth the time or energy to get the money.

Yeah, who wants to spend 6 to 10 hours earning 100 dollars an hour. That's for suckers....

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CrimsonKing

I saw it too bud. Sorry Michelle. You're a sweetheart. But Yam was talking National level not State. I'm canadian and i saw that.

I have only seen it in pieces but from what i have gathered,yeah seems like more BS across the board...Oh well doesnt matter one way or the other expect any tax hikes to trickle down one way or the other no matter if we like/vote for it or not.

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Yamato

I don't know you guys, I don't want to give the impression that I'm against free college for qualified adults beyond the pale, anymore than we might also be against free primary school for our children, free healthcare for our indigent, or free war for our military families. At least Obama Inc. is honest enough to explain how they plan to pay for it. The greater BS would be drivel about relying on future projected GDP growth (bureaucratic code for borrowing), or worse, making no mention of financing it at all. To make such a comparison, coming around the bureaucratic corner again is the Keystone Pipeline. While I know we must exploit Canada for its natural resources (sorry acidhead), in a semblance of true interest of genuinely opposing taxpayer financing for fedgov programs, I'd welcome a Montana, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas lottery to fund this pipe I couldn't care less about in spite of where gasoline prices were two years ago.

I'm only too aware that asking questions is frequently confused with opposition to something, yet I have nothing inherently against the idea of better educating our people. What would really turn me on in political circles is some principle in financing. If we can put our college educations to the demand of hopefully mobs of foolish individuals making poor decisions with their money at gas stations and convenience stores, why not an oil pipeline too? Because it wouldn't be as popular? Maybe that's a valid reason but it'd also be a valid reason not to build it in the first place. Amongst all the good reasons to build it, for instance the "shovel-ready jobs" nonsense. I know what's the most shovel-ready job lying around in my yard, and it's directly analogous to Obama's political rhetoric. Did people in these states, these districts, even get a vote? The point is that Obama's school idea, while poor, could be a lot worse.

acidhead: Yes, the economy is juiced my friend. This is inferred so often on financial news networks it's almost Orwellian. Janet Yellen is now the most powerful economic force in the world on two legs. The Ron Paul economy would have headed straight for recession that we'd still be clawing our way out of today in some sectors. Unfortunately, given the choice between honesty and money, people will choose the choice that they can understand. More peanuts from our masters; political hand-to-mouth. Instead of the Ron Paul Recession and a Ron Paul Recovery, we're finding a much higher elevation from which to drive the economy over the precipice. Hear hear.

It's not that this economy is particularly strong either even with the Fed, although anyone who watched the SOTU speech would think so. Citing part-time jobs as a component part of the Strong Union narrative isn't saying much.

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