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Yamato

Free Community College is a Bad Idea

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Thanato

So a little bit more tax, or a lot more debt?

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Yamato

How about a little less government and a lot less deficit?

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DieChecker

How about we focus on teaching kids what they need to know to get a decent job while they are in High School, rather then letting them dink around with dozens of worthless, easy-A classes. I know several high schoolers and the classes they are taking in some cases are saddening. Teacher's Aid + Band + Choir + Study Hall + Early Release = Not much of a future.

Kids are getting social training, and their self image is fine, but they're getting out of HS and aren't ready to do a single thing other then work at McDonalds.

I like this idea of free community college, but with some previsions. Students would still have to test and pass minimum standards. They also would have to maintain their grade point average. Otherwise it is over. If they want to spend their own money to get up to the minimum, or they spend their own money to get back to the grade point cutoff.... Fine and good, you're back on the free tuition. But people should have to earn it and want it.

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Yamato

They already take SATs, why do we need yet another federal bureaucracy for minimum standards testing? That would be a redundant waste of money. If they're only taking band, choir and study hall it means they already passed their requisite courses in math, science, history, English, and social studies. I don't know how finishing their requirements early can be deduced to mean they have no future, it would just as well be the opposite, that their performance was so good they weren't struggling down to the wire to finish their core credits.

If the good idea of "free" schools isn't educating our high school students well enough to do anything more than work at McDonalds after they graduate, the last thing that I want to pay for is more of the same. That's often the reaction to such failure in govt programs though. Expand the failure even more and fail even harder.

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Hammerclaw

A BA is just a status symbol now that you can earn by taking snap courses in esoteric nonsense. At least half the people in college now don't belong there. They treat it like four more years of high school away from home at mommy and daddy's expense. Most graduate with no marketable job skills and wind up in dead end lower level management positions competing with high school grads who have four more years of practical work experience. The company I worked for became so disgusted with the quality of college grads they were hiring, they dropped college as a requirement for entry level management positions, putting a premium on job experience, instead.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Yamato

A BA is just a status symbol now that you can earn by taking snap courses in esoteric nonsense. At least half the people in college now don't belong there. They treat it like four more years of high school away from home at mommy and daddy's expense. Most graduate with no marketable job skills and wind up in dead end lower level management positions competing with high school grads who have four more years of practical work experience. The company I worked for became so disgusted with the quality of college grads they were hiring, they dropped college as a requirement for entry level management positions, putting a premium on job experience, instead.

I think you have the greater right of it. Liberal arts degrees with zero experience...these are not the candidates for skilled work. Semi-skilled at best. Trainable employees in a more and more limited number of industries. If I was an employer I would want to find the kid coming right out of high school who's been writing programs since he was 10. I wouldn't even hire the twenty-something with the computer science degree if I could help it.

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Hammerclaw

I think you have the greater right of it. Liberal arts degrees with zero experience...these are not the candidates for skilled work. Semi-skilled at best. Trainable employees in a more and more limited number of industries. If I was an employer I would want to find the kid coming right out of high school who's been writing programs since he was 10. I wouldn't even hire the twenty-something with the computer science degree if I could help it.

Exactly. No point in college for just four years. Two years of trade school and your on your way to a fat paycheck doing something worthwhile. What's the point in wasting four years and then having to spend two learning a trade?
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DieChecker

They already take SATs, why do we need yet another federal bureaucracy for minimum standards testing? That would be a redundant waste of money.

SAT would work fine. I don't believe most community colleges actually require SAT scores. Only reason to take the SAT is to go to a four year university.

If they're only taking band, choir and study hall it means they already passed their requisite courses in math, science, history, English, and social studies. I don't know how finishing their requirements early can be deduced to mean they have no future, it would just as well be the opposite, that their performance was so good they weren't struggling down to the wire to finish their core credits.

I don't know if you've talked to anyone in high school lately, but there are several flavors of diploma now.

Common Diploma Types

Technical/Vocational Students must complete a combination of academic courses and vocational or technical courses.

General Student must complete a certain number of credits and maintain a minimum GPA.

College Prep Students must complete a state-mandated curriculum and maintain a certain GPA.

Honors College Prep Students must complete a state-mandated curriculum that is complemented by additional rigorous coursework. Students must achieve a high academic level and maintain a certain GPA.

International Baccalaureate Students must complete a specific two-year international curriculum to meet standards set by The International Baccalaureate Organization. This challenging curriculum is normally completed in the final two years of high school by qualified students who have completed a highly academic pre-baccalaureate curriculum.

http://homeworktips..../a/diplomas.htm

Those getting a Basic Diploma, or General Student, basically just need to get enough credits. There isn't much of math, science, or literature required, and no foreign language required. These students just need to be baby-sitted though their four years and then are let loose into the world with no real skills or training.

If the good idea of "free" schools isn't educating our high school students well enough to do anything more than work at McDonalds after they graduate, the last thing that I want to pay for is more of the same. That's often the reaction to such failure in govt programs though. Expand the failure even more and fail even harder.

I'd agree. That's why I said, "How about we focus on teaching kids what they need to know to get a decent job while they are in High School, rather then letting them dink around with dozens of worthless, easy-A classes. "

Edited by DieChecker

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Br Cornelius

A BA is just a status symbol now that you can earn by taking snap courses in esoteric nonsense. At least half the people in college now don't belong there. They treat it like four more years of high school away from home at mommy and daddy's expense. Most graduate with no marketable job skills and wind up in dead end lower level management positions competing with high school grads who have four more years of practical work experience. The company I worked for became so disgusted with the quality of college grads they were hiring, they dropped college as a requirement for entry level management positions, putting a premium on job experience, instead.

The real issue, which you are attempting to place on the shoulders of the graduates, is that there aren't enough graduate positions which means that many graduates never get a chance to gain experience. Almost all graduate level positions now require 2-5 years of relevant work experience. The problem is with the jobs market, or more particularly - the economy is ****ed.

Br Cornelius

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Hammerclaw

The real issue, which you are attempting to place on the shoulders of the graduates, is that there aren't enough graduate positions which means that many graduates never get a chance to gain experience. Almost all graduate level positions now require 2-5 years of relevant work experience. The problem is with the jobs market, or more particularly - the economy is ****ed.

Br Cornelius

The problem is too many mediocre scholars vying for too few mediocre positions. They wasted a higher education by setting their sights too low, or never even bothered to take aim. Just having a degree use to be the ticket in, but not anymore. Not many openings for English majors that graduated in the bottom third of their class.

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Br Cornelius

The problem is too many mediocre scholars vying for too few mediocre positions. They wasted a higher education by setting their sights too low, or never even bothered to take aim. Just having a degree use to be the ticket in, but not anymore. Not many openings for English majors that graduated in the bottom third of their class.

Not many jobs, unless you want to be a shelf stacker.

Your choices are, don't get a job which doesn't need qualifications or don't get a job that does.

Not much of a choice our economy has left for us. Always blame the victims, its the conservative way.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Yamato

SAT would work fine. I don't believe most community colleges actually require SAT scores. Only reason to take the SAT is to go to a four year university.

I don't know if you've talked to anyone in high school lately, but there are several flavors of diploma now.

http://homeworktips..../a/diplomas.htm

Those getting a Basic Diploma, or General Student, basically just need to get enough credits. There isn't much of math, science, or literature required, and no foreign language required. These students just need to be baby-sitted though their four years and then are let loose into the world with no real skills or training.

I'd agree. That's why I said, "How about we focus on teaching kids what they need to know to get a decent job while they are in High School, rather then letting them dink around with dozens of worthless, easy-A classes. "

The flavors don't convince me of your complaints diechecker, rather the opposite. Reading the article you linked to, I see student choice rather than a lack of a choice, and when they choose something different they get a better education not a worse one. As for a general student not getting much of math, science, lit or language, where do you get that from? Babysat through four years of what? What do you think they're learning?

The only reason for SAT is a four year college? It's a scholastic aptitude test, it's exactly what you were asking for, it doesn't matter what college you go to, your SAT is the same value either way. If a community college wanted to see a student's SAT score to do what you're alleging you want to do, I see absolutely no reason why we wouldn't do that instead of redundant govt testing trying to measure the exact same thing.

While your ideas and what you're alleging is wrong have their own solutions, it has little to do with Obama's free community college other than his program alleges to require some of the things you're suggesting. But Obama's idea is a nightmare; it's a complete abandonment of free market principle. If we think education is too expensive now, wait till they pile more on their plate.

Interesting one of the diplomas is state mandated. If the choices make it even worse, and the state is that bad at picking out what they ought to learn, why would you trust the state to pick what students ought to learn? You don't need free community college to do that, we just change the curriculum in the diplomas they're already earning.

And also, the purpose of high school isn't just to maximize the chance our teenagers can get jobs (and whoever the keeper of that knowledge in govt is). It's to give them a foundation for them to go out and study/experience/specialize in what they choose. It's a bit presumptuous to act like you know what a kid needs to get a job. If they're passionate in the obscure thing they want to do with their lives, they can get a job. Who are you to trust a nameless stranger to make that decision for them? And if they can't get a job, then the real difference between you and me emerges. It all boils down to whether they have a taxpayer funded safety net or not. If they can't get the job they want they should get the job they can, and learn how to live frugally. That'll be more valuable than any class they took in high school and they'll pay to take it themselves, not someone else's parents or kids on their behalf.

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Hammerclaw

Not many jobs, unless you want to be a shelf stacker.

Your choices are, don't get a job which doesn't need qualifications or don't get a job that does.

Not much of a choice our economy has left for us. Always blame the victims, its the conservative way.

Br Cornelius

Our stupidity is somebody else's fault. Never take responsibility and man up to life, it's the liberal way. http://youtu.be/NIylUcGDi-Y Edited by Hammerclaw
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Br Cornelius

Our stupidity is somebody else's fault. Never take responsibility and man up to life, it's the liberal way.

I don't think its stupid to get a degree when you were told that was how to get a job. It seems that the kids who got degrees were just following the best advice. You call them stupid if you like. I know for a fact that there ain't no decent jobs without appropriate qualifications (the sort of jobs you could base a family on).

Seems to me hammerclaw that your living in the last century.

Br Cornelius

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Harte

How about we focus on teaching kids what they need to know to get a decent job while they are in High School, rather then letting them dink around with dozens of worthless, easy-A classes. I know several high schoolers and the classes they are taking in some cases are saddening. Teacher's Aid + Band + Choir + Study Hall + Early Release = Not much of a future.

Kids are getting social training, and their self image is fine, but they're getting out of HS and aren't ready to do a single thing other then work at McDonalds.

I like this idea of free community college, but with some previsions. Students would still have to test and pass minimum standards. They also would have to maintain their grade point average. Otherwise it is over. If they want to spend their own money to get up to the minimum, or they spend their own money to get back to the grade point cutoff.... Fine and good, you're back on the free tuition. But people should have to earn it and want it.

People that need help are already getting free college through Pell Grants.

Will Obama end the Pell Grant program?

The Pell Grant already pays out (for two years) more than the cost of two years of the average community college.

IOW, the "need" is bogus, and the proposition is purely political in nature.

Harte

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Hammerclaw

I don't think its stupid to get a degree when you were told that was how to get a job. It seems that the kids who got degrees were just following the best advice. You call them stupid if you like. I know for a fact that there ain't no decent jobs without appropriate qualifications (the sort of jobs you could base a family on).

Seems to me hammerclaw that your living in the last century.

Br Cornelius

People that want to work have jobs, people that don't want to work have excuses. That excuse always seems to be that there are no positions available. Everything that is available is too menial, and they're too proud. They're not too proud to be freeloading bums and a burden on somebody else, however. There's that sort in every century.
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Br Cornelius

People that want to work have jobs, people that don't want to work have excuses. That excuse always seems to be that there are no positions available. Everything that is available is too menial, and they're too proud. They're not too proud to be freeloading bums and a burden on somebody else, however. There's that sort in every century.

Your a very angry man Hammerclaw, and somewhat out of touch with the actual real world. Many, if not most of the jobs created in the recent few years have no security and do not pay a living wage, ceratinly not a wage which will pay a mortgage/rent and support children. A graduate can attempt to get one of those jobs, but chances are they will be told they are overqualified.

I suspect you haven't had to find a job recently otherwise you wouldn't be spouting such offensive rubbish.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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White Crane Feather

I have several kids leave me for college every year. The formula is simple. Make sure to acquire internships every semester even if yo have to work for free. Do a good job and and aquire letters of rec from each. Kids that don't get jobs after they graduate usually were just takeing their classes. It also depends on what your major is. There is simply more demand in areas like pharmacy, chemical engineering, and medic fields.

There is nothing wrong with trade schools either. But many times high school grads are lazy. Four year degrees are ways for companys to differentiate those that know how to stick things out and those who are wishy washy.

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Br Cornelius

Many people cannot afford to work for free, food and rent been what it is. So the employers stratify for people with rich parents which perpetuates the 1% syndrome.

The criminal thing is that companies have come to expect this level of commitment and expect to get employees who they don't have to spend a penny training to do their specialist tasks. You end up with a massive student loan and only a medium chance of ever getting a well paid job. No wonder kids are depressed and committing suicide in ever increasing numbers.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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Hammerclaw

Your a very angry man Hammerclaw, and somewhat out of touch with the actual real world. Many, if not most of the jobs created in the recent few years have no security and do not pay a living wage, ceratinly not a wage which will pay a mortgage/rent and support children. A graduate can attempt to get one of those jobs, but chances are they will be told they are overqualified.

I suspect you haven't had to find a job recently otherwise you wouldn't be spouting such offensive rubbish.

Br Cornelius

Yes, Yes, endless excuses. Are you talking about yourself, perchance? Sometimes you have to work two jobs 60-70 hours a week. Sometimes households require two wage earners and you have to get use to something other than the taste of the silver spoon in your mouth you grew up with. This is what people who make their own way already know and already do. The one's that don't have it all cozy with someone they can live off of while they twiddle their thumbs and whine about how life is so unfair. Well, life is seldom fair, nor does it afford most of us the luxury of sitting indolently on our backsides waiting on a perfect position to fall in our laps. I have nephews in exactly that position. All they do is sponge off their mother, play video games and whine and are too lazy to lift a finger to help their mother around the house. Anger? more like disgust. :td:
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Yamato

Many people cannot afford to work for free, food and rent been what it is. So the employers stratify for people with rich parents which perpetuates the 1% syndrome.

The criminal thing is that companies have come to expect this level of commitment and expect to get employees who they don't have to spend a penny training to do their specialist tasks. You end up with a massive student loan and only a medium chance of ever getting a well paid job. No wonder kids are depressed and committing suicide in ever increasing numbers.

Br Cornelius

When I went back to school, the bankers were lined up at the door extending me credit. literally. Orientation day included walking around a series of tables with bankers behind them hawking every potential borrower they met. As it turns out, Citibank is who hooked me up. If the kids were taught by their parents not to go into debt, if the banks would ever suggest such a thing on the lackey parents' behalf, if the government would ever be a role model in such an idea, if the Greenspan Express ever gave the true impression we're on borrowed time, maybe the kids wouldn't have that crushing debt they can't escape from and they'd live longer?

Let's take the worst case I've read here yet. You get a college degree and can't get anything else but McDonalds? Find a house to rent and split the rent six ways. Live with your parents. Work harder than the other lazy teenagers and get promoted to supervisor. Groom yourself for management and make more per year than a bachelors degree or a teacher like Harte. No praise to sing for such people who do that either though. Those people aren't your society.

Every time I think about this idea of state managed specialization I can't help but to think of 'Divergent', whose system for assigning young people their roles in life would neatly solve the problems you identify. But I know what you're thinking, any fair and well intended reason is a good reason to deny the individual forever and benefit society next year.

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joc

The problem:

Can't

It's THE problem! Regardless of whether you have a degree or not. If you are looking for a job...you need a job...the 'for sure' way to get one is to say...out loud I Can find a job and I will. That's it. Problem solved.

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Hammerclaw

Unless your family is very well heeled and you will be gifted with a substantial inheritance sometime down the road, you are going to go into debt, for a house, car, whatever. Paying off a student loan isn't any harder than paying off a car--you just don't get to drive it. Money problems will never stop someone who's not afraid of them.

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acidhead

Jan. 22, 2015

Want to Really Help Students? Make it Legal to Pay Them!

by Ron Paul

Everybody from the President, to the libertarians, to populists, Republicans, Democrats, and me, is a champion of the middle class. Anyone who has an understanding of the free market and sound money actually knows exactly what the answer is for achieving a large and thriving middle class. Unfortunately, politicians in Washington know little about the free market and that certainly includes President Obama.

One of the President's plans to help the middle class is to give everyone two years of free college. Free to him means making someone else pay. I have a better plan. I want to make it legal to pay students to get a useful education by repealing all laws that interfere in voluntary contracts dealing with employment. This includes minimum wage laws. Today our colleges graduate a lot of students with degrees that have not provided them with the skills needed to take the many jobs going begging. What is needed are electricians, plumbers, welders, carpenters, technicians, etc. Why not let people learn on the job for a wage agreed upon by student and the employer-teacher while learning a trade? That would be a lot better than robbing Peter to pay Paul for an "education" that fails to prepare the student for a real job. A healthy dose of liberty would go a long way toward helping the middle class and the entire economy.

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