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In 21st century UK a judge actually said this


danielost

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with few exceptions most animals start having babies as soon as they are able. humans and it seems elephants push that back a couple of years. although for humans it depends on the culture.

I think that would have to do with "most animals" growing to adulthood in like 1 year. And most of those animals expecting to die within 5 years. Elephants and Humans live much longer and take much longer to reach adulthood, and form complex societies, requiring extensive training, which lead to members of the society becoming sexually mature, yet not ready to raise young. The same can be seen in almost all whale species.

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Why don't we still do so?

I've got like 20,000 people on my Ancestory.com profile and I think only 2 or 3 of them married/had kids before 16. I don't think it is as common as you would like to believe.

when life expectancy was 30, it would not be smart to wait until twenty to have kids. too many people died before then. have heard the term old maid. an old maid was any women 16 and older who hadn't been married. the current age is 18. although we don't bother with it anymore.

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I notice throughout that article that they call her a "Child Bride".

1 the reporter called her a child bride once.

2 the reporter is from isreal. isreal has a different culture than the arabs.

3 You are never too young to be married. this is from the story.

Read more: Egypt: 13-year-old weds 10-year-old | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/13-year-old-married-to-10-year-old-in-egypt/#ixzz3PEXEuHmM

Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

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when life expectancy was 30, it would not be smart to wait until twenty to have kids. too many people died before then. have heard the term old maid. an old maid was any women 16 and older who hadn't been married. the current age is 18. although we don't bother with it anymore.

But didn't that life expectancy calculation include everyone that died as a child? If 50% of people born died in childhood, then the actual adult life expectancy is a lot higher.

I looked around and couldn't find a definition of Old Maid that specifically referred to the age of 16. The description I found was of a woman who was beyond marriageable age, which I would not believe to be 18, or 16, but probably closer to 23, or 25.

Ancestry.com has shown me many (maybe Most) of my female ancestors married in their twenties. I'd suppose if the woman was required to work, such as being a maid, or in some industry, where money for the family was more important then having children immediately. I've got nearly all my ancestors mapped out back to the Revolutionary War, other then the ones from Germany/Prussia/Poland/Austria. For some reason Ancestry doesn't have good records out of those nations yet.

I can look it up and break it down if you would like. It is just one person's ancestors though, so it would not be conclusive proof, but I think it would be a good example.

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Why don't we still do so?

I've got like 20,000 people on my Ancestory.com profile and I think only 2 or 3 of them married/had kids before 16. I don't think it is as common as you would like to believe.

I never said it was common now. Don't obfuscate. For the middle class and upwards childhood ends much later today than it once did. College was once the reserve of true intellectuals. Egalitarianism has turned it into an overgrown daycare filled with the mediocre mindset of four years and out while extending childhood at mommy and daddy's expense. We glorify irresponsibility and delayed adulthood. This is a relatively recent phenomenon and not the norm for much of the rest of the world. In the nineteenth century it was much more common for older men to marry younger women, especially when the spectre of being a widower after childbirth was all too common. The reality on the ground between two individuals can be be quite distinct from whatever idealistic preconception we hold in our heads.
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1 the reporter called her a child bride once.

2 the reporter is from isreal. isreal has a different culture than the arabs.

3 You are never too young to be married. this is from the story.

Read more: Egypt: 13-year-old weds 10-year-old | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofis.../#ixzz3PEXEuHmM

Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

I've seen stories of people marrying animals, cars, trees and amusement park rides also.

Does being married make you an adult? I don't think so.

Sexual Maturity makes you a Biological Adult (supposedly), but a socially/culturally adult person is another thing altogether.

This girl in the UK was not a adult by Law. This it was criminal what the teacher did. You can argue Natural Law all you want, but it doesn't change that Man lives by Laws, not by instinct.

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I've seen stories of people marrying animals, cars, trees and amusement park rides also.

Does being married make you an adult? I don't think so.

Sexual Maturity makes you a Biological Adult (supposedly), but a socially/culturally adult person is another thing altogether.

This girl in the UK was not a adult by Law. This it was criminal what the teacher did. You can argue Natural Law all you want, but it doesn't change that Man lives by Laws, not by instinct.

Of course, as has been said countless times, the law was made for man and not man for the law. A judge of the law has made her judgment. I can live with that.
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I never said it was common now. Don't obfuscate. For the middle class and upwards childhood ends much later today than it once did. College was once the reserve of true intellectuals. Egalitarianism has turned it into an overgrown daycare filled with the mediocre mindset of four years and out while extending childhood at mommy and daddy's expense. We glorify irresponsibility and delayed adulthood. This is a relatively recent phenomenon and not the norm for much of the rest of the world. In the nineteenth century it was much more common for older men to marry younger women, especially when the spectre of being a widower after childbirth was all too common. The reality on the ground between two individuals can be be quite distinct from whatever idealistic preconception we hold in our heads.

Well, I certainly agree with your description of the modern "child". And I agree it was normal for older men to marry younger women, but I don't believe you are correct that all across Europe middle aged men were marrying young teens.

Here is something I found on the subject....

The shift toward this “Western European Marriage Pattern” does not have a clear beginning, but it certainly had become established by the end of the sixteenth century on most of the shores of the North Sea. A marriage pattern where couples married comparatively late in life (and especially late for the bride), on average in the middle twenties after and setting up a nuclear household, all of this preceded by time working as servants or apprentices. Also, a significant proportion of women married after their twenties and 10-20% of women never married.[3][4][5]

Effects[edit]

The pattern of late and non-universal marriage restricted fertility massively, especially when it was coupled with very low levels of childbirth out of wedlock. Birth control took place by delaying marriage more than suppressing fertility within it. A woman's life-phase from menarche (which was generally reached on average at 14 years, at about 12 years for elite women[6][7]) to the birth of her first child was unusually long, averaging ten years.[8][9]

Variation within Western Europe[edit]

In Yorkshire in the 14th and 15th centuries, the age range for most brides was between 18 and 22 years and the age of the grooms was similar; rural Yorkshire women tended to marry in their late teens to early twenties while their urban counterparts married in their early to middle twenties. In the 15th century, the average Italian bride was 18 and married a groom 10–12 years her senior. An unmarried Tuscan woman 21 years of age would be seen as past marriageable age, the benchmark for which was 19 years, and easily 97 percent of Florentine women were married by the age of 25 years while 21 years was the typical age of a contemporary English bride.[13][14]

While the average age at first marriage had climbed to 25 for women and 27 for men in England and the Low Countries by the end of the 16th century,[15] and the percentage of Englishwomen marrying fell from over 90% to just over 80% through the 17th century and their average age at first marriage rose to 26,[16] there was nonetheless great variation within Britain alone; while Lowland Scotland saw patterns similar to England, with women married in the middle twenties after a period of domestic service, the high birth rate of Highland Scotland and the Hebrides imply a lower age of marriage for the bride, possibly similar to Gaelic Ireland.[17] Similarly, in 1620 the average age of first marriage for Swedish women was roughly 20–21 years and the proportion of single women was less than 10%, but by the end of the 18th century it had risen to roughly 26 years and continued to climb with the celibacy rate as a result of falling infant mortality rates, declining famines, and other factors.[18] Similarly, Ireland's age of marriage in 1830 was 23.8 for women and 27.47 for men where they had once been 21 and 25, respectively, and only bout 10% of adults remained unmarried;[19] in 1840, they had respectively risen to 24.4 and 27.7;[20][21] in the decades after the Great Famine, the age of marriage had risen to 28-29 for women and 33 for men and as much as a third of Irishmen and a fourth of Irishwomen never married due to chronic economic problems that discouraged early marriage[22]

http://en.wikipedia....arriage_pattern

Ask yourself, are you just repeating a preconceived notion, or is this something you know as a fact?

Edited by DieChecker
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Of course, as has been said countless times, the law was made for man and not man for the law. A judge of the law has made her judgment. I can live with that.

I agree that his life is ruined, and her's is barely begun, so she'll be fine. Even now, if she went after another older man, they probably would get away with it, since she is almost 17.

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Age of Marriage in the U.S. in the 1800s

by April Sanders, Demand Media

Between 1800 and 1900, women generally married for the first time between the ages of 20 and 22. Less is known about the average age of first marriages for men during the 19th century. In 1890, when the U.S. Census Bureau started collecting marriage data, it was recorded that the average age of a first marriage for men was 26 years, and the average age of marriage for women was 22 years.

http://classroom.synonym.com/age-marriage-us-1800s-23174.html

In 1900, as the lower chart shows, the typical young groom was almost twenty-six and his bride was four years younger. For the next half century, couples approaching the altar grew steadily younger and the age difference between bride and groom diminished. In 1960, the bride was just over twenty and the groom was under twenty-three. This trend reversed around 1970, and by 1996, the grooms were somewhat older than their counterparts in 1900, while the brides were substantially older.

http://www.pbs.org/fmc/book/4family1.htm

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I agree that his life is ruined, and her's is barely begun, so she'll be fine. Even now, if she went after another older man, they probably would get away with it, since she is almost 17.

Loretta Lynn married before she was sixteen to a man six years her senior which would be scandalous today, too. The patriarch of my branch of the Boyd's in Tennessee's fourth wife was sixteen and he was seventy-three---and he fathered several children by her! We weren't always so indulgent of immaturity.
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Loretta Lynn married before she was sixteen to a man six years her senior which would be scandalous today, too. The patriarch of my branch of the Boyd's in Tennessee's fourth wife was sixteen and he was seventy-three---and he fathered several children by her! We weren't always so indulgent of immaturity.

The low marriage age laws existed, but I don't think they were applied as commonly as some would suggest. Check the other 7 (or 15) branches and see if any others married at such a young age.

Though we are talking Tennessee here...... :whistle:

Edited by DieChecker
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The low marriage age laws existed, but I don't think they were applied as commonly as some would suggest. Check the other 7 (or 15) branches and see if any others married at such a young age.

Though we are talking Tennessee here...... :whistle:

We always look askance at Kentucky, here. *lol* Records were rarely kept on the frontier and for poor people, and all a prospective husband needed was a father's consent. Husbands who owned their own land and made their own way didn't fall off trees.
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At the end of the day, the age of consent in the UK is 16. If he hadn't been her teacher this would never have made the news. While a relationship between a 16 year old and a 44 year old may be somewhat strange, it does happen and would not be illegal in the UK.

There were some charges relating to when she was 15, but he was found not guilty of those.

If it was my 16 year old daughter I would have gone crazy and have been very glad that he lost his job and could never work with children again. But if I knew she had persued him like this girl had I would give her a very stern talking to for being so stupid and getting involved. At 16 years old she would have known exactly what she was getting herself in to.

I don't blame her.....but I don't see her as a victim either. They both knew what they were doing and the potential consequences of their actions.

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At the end of the day, the age of consent in the UK is 16. If he hadn't been her teacher this would never have made the news. While a relationship between a 16 year old and a 44 year old may be somewhat strange, it does happen and would not be illegal in the UK.

There were some charges relating to when she was 15, but he was found not guilty of those.

If it was my 16 year old daughter I would have gone crazy and have been very glad that he lost his job and could never work with children again. But if I knew she had persued him like this girl had I would give her a very stern talking to for being so stupid and getting involved. At 16 years old she would have known exactly what she was getting herself in to.

I don't blame her.....but I don't see her as a victim either. They both knew what they were doing and the potential consequences of their actions.

Somehow (probably because I didn't even read the freaking story :whistle: ) the age of consent being 16 in the UK escaped me.

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Somehow (probably because I didn't even read the freaking story :whistle: ) the age of consent being 16 in the UK escaped me.

Haha :) It's 16 for UK and a lot of Europe (a few countries are actually younger!)

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I'd argue that your definition is wrong (unless you can provide a resource?), and that instead an adult is not just when an animal is ready to reproduce, but when it is able to raise young. Young girls can get pregnant sometimes at 7, 8 and 9 years of age, yet any children, unless taken away, would almost surely die. Because a 9 year old, or even a 13 year old, is not ready to raise children. Thus in a human the child needs to reach a certain level of knowledge and ability, not just have the ability to produce sperm, or an egg.

what about all those animals that don't bother with raising their children. by what you said in this quote, none of them ever reach adulthood.

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But didn't that life expectancy calculation include everyone that died as a child? If 50% of people born died in childhood, then the actual adult life expectancy is a lot higher.

I looked around and couldn't find a definition of Old Maid that specifically referred to the age of 16. The description I found was of a woman who was beyond marriageable age, which I would not believe to be 18, or 16, but probably closer to 23, or 25.

Ancestry.com has shown me many (maybe Most) of my female ancestors married in their twenties. I'd suppose if the woman was required to work, such as being a maid, or in some industry, where money for the family was more important then having children immediately. I've got nearly all my ancestors mapped out back to the Revolutionary War, other then the ones from Germany/Prussia/Poland/Austria. For some reason Ancestry doesn't have good records out of those nations yet.

I can look it up and break it down if you would like. It is just one person's ancestors though, so it would not be conclusive proof, but I think it would be a good example.

look up the Mormon genealogy site. you don't have to be a member of the church to use it.

http://www.archives....&utm_medium=cpc

Edited by danielost
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But didn't that life expectancy calculation include everyone that died as a child? If 50% of people born died in childhood, then the actual adult life expectancy is a lot higher.

I looked around and couldn't find a definition of Old Maid that specifically referred to the age of 16. The description I found was of a woman who was beyond marriageable age, which I would not believe to be 18, or 16, but probably closer to 23, or 25.

Ancestry.com has shown me many (maybe Most) of my female ancestors married in their twenties. I'd suppose if the woman was required to work, such as being a maid, or in some industry, where money for the family was more important then having children immediately. I've got nearly all my ancestors mapped out back to the Revolutionary War, other then the ones from Germany/Prussia/Poland/Austria. For some reason Ancestry doesn't have good records out of those nations yet.

I can look it up and break it down if you would like. It is just one person's ancestors though, so it would not be conclusive proof, but I think it would be a good example.

+

here is the modern definition

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/old%20maid

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I've seen stories of people marrying animals, cars, trees and amusement park rides also.

Does being married make you an adult? I don't think so.

Sexual Maturity makes you a Biological Adult (supposedly), but a socially/culturally adult person is another thing altogether.

This girl in the UK was not a adult by Law. This it was criminal what the teacher did. You can argue Natural Law all you want, but it doesn't change that Man lives by Laws, not by instinct.

no, most people live by law not instinct. but, there are some who won't bother to rise that high. which is one reason we have criminals.

the jury found this man innocent of statuary rape.

Edited by danielost
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the one thing i find interesting is that these sort of things:teacher-student sexual relations almost always happen in either the UK or US.Why exactly is this?Its never happened in Ireland and is unheard of in places like France,Finland and Spain which have lower ages of consent.Even in Japan where its 13 its unheard of.Is it a purely cultural thing.

Its true getting married at a younger age was accepted but thats probably because people were expected to be more mature than before due to environmental conditions and social expections.This is not to say that biology plays a role.A teens brain has always been less developed than say a 30 year olds but a teens brain from say 100-200 years ago may have been more developed than those from today.

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the one thing i find interesting is that these sort of things:teacher-student sexual relations almost always happen in either the UK or US.Why exactly is this?Its never happened in Ireland and is unheard of in places like France,Finland and Spain which have lower ages of consent.Even in Japan where its 13 its unheard of.Is it a purely cultural thing.

Its true getting married at a younger age was accepted but thats probably because people were expected to be more mature than before due to environmental conditions and social expections.This is not to say that biology plays a role.A teens brain has always been less developed than say a 30 year olds but a teens brain from say 100-200 years ago may have been more developed than those from today.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/assistant-teacher-jailed-for-having-sex-with-14yearold-pupil-after-facebook-relationship-30436792.html

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/psni-probes-female-teachers-relationship-with-antrim-schoolboy-30437576.html

These are just two examples I found doing just a basic quick search. So I don't believe that it is a problem just happening in the UK and the States.

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I think that the teacher is wrong in having sex with his pupil but 16 is legal in UK.

So I don't think he's some Jimmy Savillesque pedophile, he's just a strange man that's taken advantage.

I get what the judge is trying to say. she's just not wordered it well

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Haha :) It's 16 for UK and a lot of Europe (a few countries are actually younger!)

Interesting reading....

http://en.wikipedia....nsent_in_Europe

I have to plead ignorance on the age of consent being 14 and 15 in so many nations. Spain has the age of consent at 13...

I suppose that begs the question of.... Is the age of consent when a person is considered an adult? Biologically an adult surely, but culturally and legally?

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