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Pope - says he would punch someone


bee

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In the opening post I asked if the Pope had lost the plot....

To be honest when I saw him speaking, his demeanor, facial expressions - his confused message

and the look on the face of - Mr Gasparri - I did think he might have the onset of alzheimers -

but decided to make comments here as if he was in sound mind and body because I would have

thought that he would have been retired if there was a mental health problem..? (albeit mild)

So I had a little search and it seems that this possibility could be a real one...

for example...

https://culbreath.wo...tia-hypothesis/

What kind of a pope hath the Catholic Church today? A liberal? A modernist? A Lutheran? A charismatic? A liberation theologian? A socialist? A Catholic? A phenomenologist? We see all of these strains and more in the writings, homilies, interviews, and actions of Pope Francis. The only consistency is a nasty impatience with Catholic doctrine, and the absolute priority of human experience over any other consideration. The rest is, quite frankly, an incomprehensible mess.

This baffling incoherence is leading some to question whether Pope Francis is actually of sound mind. Open speculation about the Holy Father possibly suffering the early stages of dementia arose within several months of his election. He seems not to be aware that he contradicts himself (and the Church) continually, and embarrassingly.

and then there is this --

Published on 20 Aug 2014

Pope Francis has spoken publicly about the prospect of his own death for the first time, giving himself 'two or three years' before he meets his maker. In a press conference aboard his jet as he returned from a trip to South Korea, Francis also mentioned the possibility of retiring from the Papacy if he felt he could no longer perform his duties.

now -- he deserves our compassion and best wishes if he has got something wrong with him -

but

the facts as I see them are that first the Paris murderers brought Islam into disrepute -

then then the Pope brought Catholicism into disrepute (in a lesser way saying what he said)

A double whammy where organized religion is concerned - at the beginning of the year -

Perhaps 2015 could be a year where organized religion is put under the microscope more -

Because it seems to be causing more problems than it's solving -

Will it be more or less replaced one day with a combination of Science, Art and Philosophy - ?

If the cycle of religious indoctrination can be broken -- ?

Sunday today - lol - and hereby ends the Non Religious sermon - :innocent: - :D

.

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Damned if you do and damned if you don't. For years I have been listening to people bang on about how the Papacy thinks they are holy but they are only men and who do they all think they are telling others about sin when they are clearly sinners and greedy and hypocrits so on an so forth ad nauseum.

Finally we get a Pope who admits he is human and not some "holier than thou" voice of God and that's enough to condemn him too.

Bah humbug, I'll take the humility of honest feelings spoken out loud over any sermon about what a sanctimonious righteous human being should and should not do and what a failure we all are because we will never measure up to all those rules. Once those rules are spoken too, everyone rails against them because it is so cruel to judge sinners for sins they cannot help committing because they are only human. Swings and roundabouts, that's all I see.

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How acceptable a punch is, depends on local culture and context.

I agree that in matters that involve international crowd, it’s only wise to say things in the way that leaves as little as possible room for misinterpretations or misunderstandings.

I didn’t understand Pope’s statement as an attempt of excusing the murderers of the cartoonists, because there’s a world of difference between a punch and an automatic weapons assault.

I understood it in completely the opposite way: we feel like punching people sometimes. And sometimes we might not be able to control that urge.

No one pulled an AK out in that context. So let’s not equalize a punch, that is basically a “**** you too” gesture, with mass murders.

In my defence, I mostly bark so I don’t have to bite.

They might not be as deadly with regards to intent, but make no mistake, a punch can be lethal.

If you intend to throw a punch at someone, you should always accept any consequences of your actions, regardless of your intent.

Words are generally much safer, despite what recent events suggest...

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In this State we have a campaign going that is aimed at preventing senseless violence.

The slogan is "One Punch Can Kill".....we even have commercials funded by the State Government in trying to send home the message of anti-violence.

The campaign is mainly aimed at the youth, but I feel that it's a message for everybody to take seriously.

Now... the Pope may have used the term of punching someone in jest, if they were to offend ie: his mother.

But under the circumstances, and in light of all the violence and killing that we have going on in the world today.

I feel that it was a strange, much less an inappropriate remark.

What mixed message has he now sent out to the millions of his faithful followers?

"Don't provoke or offend anybody, because you deserve to get a knuckle sandwich if you do"?

"I'm against them killing you, but physical violence is ok" ?

It is very possible that he is going a little dotty..... senility happens to many elderly folk.

I am not condemning the man, as he is only human.....but an early retirement may not be such a bad thing.

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I thought that this pope was in touch with the people, and more modern than his counterparts. What surprises me is, not what he said, because we all say silly things at times without thinking. But I would have expected some sort of clarification of his words by now, or maybe put into some other context which doesn't advocate violent behaviour. Especially given the outrage and bad press his remarks have caused.

Then again he is involved in a rather large tour at the moment. So hopefully when he gets back to the Vatican, and has time to reflect, he may say something about this then. Fingers crossed.

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Well, in my opinion Ruth....the Pope didn't put things in perspective at all..... all I see is contradictions.

Basically he condoned that it's ok to strike back....hence "punching" someone if they offended his mother. (I think due to her faith)

What on earth does his mother have to do with anything in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attack??

Weird comparison to make ? :unsure2:

He'd also expressed that it was an aberration to kill in the name of religion, and that religion should not be used to justify violence.

So in other words....you can punch someone "physically attack" if they offend.

But it's not ok to kill them.

Do you see the mixed messages and contradictions there?

Also, I found your remark harsh in regards to the cartoonists. They did not deserve to be shot down in cold blood because of a few sketches.

If we succumb to these terrorists by being afraid of expressing our freedom of speech.....then they win.

The message I received from the Pope's statement is NOT that "it is OK to strike back". Rather, his message was that "it is NORMAL to strike back".

That is, we should not be surprised when certain humans strike back when they've been insulted. Just that simple. Paraphrasing, the message was that it is predictable behavior to strike back, for a large segment of the human race.

The US strikes back, and so do most other countries with the capability to strike back.

The person who "turns the other cheek", advice from the bible, is most rare. That was his point.

I thought that this pope was in touch with the people, and more modern than his counterparts. What surprises me is, not what he said, because we all say silly things at times without thinking. But I would have expected some sort of clarification of his words by now, or maybe put into some other context which doesn't advocate violent behaviour. Especially given the outrage and bad press his remarks have caused.

Then again he is involved in a rather large tour at the moment. So hopefully when he gets back to the Vatican, and has time to reflect, he may say something about this then. Fingers crossed.

Clarification? Or a politically correct retraction?

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They might not be as deadly with regards to intent, but make no mistake, a punch can be lethal.

If you intend to throw a punch at someone, you should always accept any consequences of your actions, regardless of your intent.

Words are generally much safer, despite what recent events suggest...

Lethal punch? In a movie such as Million Dollar Baby, sure, and even there it was unfortunate fall over a chair, not a punch per se, that in the end more-less indirectly killed an imaginary character.

But yes, theoretically, a tickle can be lethal too, if you’re tickling someone who is already throwing his first death throes...

Of course, I agree that everyone should accept consequences of their actions.

So what makes you think that the Pope is not aware what are the consequences of punching a friend of his? The Pope wasn’t born a Pope, he was young once and had a life. It makes me think he knows enough about punching and being punched.

On the other hand, are you aware of the consequences of building yourself an image of a voluntary victim?

I wouldn’t recommend that form of extremism to my worst enemy, let alone to anyone I care for. In this world, proclaiming you won’t strike back is as useful as throwing yourself under a bus.

Since many people here think that Catholicism involves or should involve extreme pacifism, even at the price of self-destruction, I must inform you that this is not the case. Self-defence is allowed and in certain situations it’s even the duty.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13691a.htm

I see nothing questionable there, while I see extreme danger and extreme annoyance in preaching extreme passivity. You can't stop psychopaths with being passive, and there's plenty of those everywhere.

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I was just reading about his visit to Manila, where six million are attending an outdoor Mass.

No comments on boxing lessons to avenge scorned mothers, but I found these comments interesting:

"The Pope then listened to several children speak about their experiences of growing up on the streets.

One of the children, 12-year-old Glyzelle Palomar, wept as she told her story and asked why God had allowed children to suffer so much.

A visibly moved Pope Francis replied: "Only when we are able to cry are we able to come close to responding to your question."

He added that the world needed to learn how to cry with those in need.

"Those on the margins cry. Those who have fallen by the wayside cry. Those who are discarded cry. But those who are living a life that is more or less without need, we don't know how to cry," he said."

Now, perhaps I need some clarification from someone who follows Catholicism, but did he...

A - Totally avoid the child's question, and blame mankind? I agree with him, not being a believer myself, but where exactly is God in all this? Like I say, a serious question of those with faith... why are children allowed to suffer if God is both benevolent and omnipotent?

B - Just give Steve Martin's "Pointy birds, o pointy pointy, anoint my head, anointy-nointy." speech from The Man with Two Brains?

Edited by LV-426
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LV, while you wait for a Catholic to respond to theological question in a politics thread, I can give you the gist of usual official explanation: God allows it because the reward is in Heaven, not on Earth.

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Lethal punch? In a movie such as Million Dollar Baby, sure, and even there it was unfortunate fall over a chair, not a punch per se, that in the end more-less indirectly killed an imaginary character.

But yes, theoretically, a tickle can be lethal too, if you’re tickling someone who is already throwing his first death throes...

Of course, I agree that everyone should accept consequences of their actions.

So what makes you think that the Pope is not aware what are the consequences of punching a friend of his? The Pope wasn’t born a Pope, he was young once and had a life. It makes me think he knows enough about punching and being punched.

On the other hand, are you aware of the consequences of building yourself an image of a voluntary victim?

I wouldn’t recommend that form of extremism to my worst enemy, let alone to anyone I care for. In this world, proclaiming you won’t strike back is as useful as throwing yourself under a bus.

Since many people here think that Catholicism involves or should involve extreme pacifism, even at the price of self-destruction, I must inform you that this is not the case. Self-defence is allowed and in certain situations it’s even the duty.

http://www.newadvent...then/13691a.htm

I see nothing questionable there, while I see extreme danger and extreme annoyance in preaching extreme passivity. You can't stop psychopaths with being passive, and there's plenty of those everywhere.

I'm not sure why you're equating punches with Hollywood movies? Not the best comparison to the real world...

Punches can be fatal without a doubt. I know both from personal experience with martial arts training, and from a close relative who's career involved caring for the severely handicapped... some of which had been put in that condition with a single blow to the head from a fist, or often something even more innocuous.

I've never said that I wouldn't throw a punch by the way. I'd just be damned sure why I was throwing it, and be prepared to accept any consequences of doing so.

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I'm not sure why you're equating punches with Hollywood movies? Not the best comparison to the real world...

Punches can be fatal without a doubt. I know both from personal experience with martial arts training, and from a close relative who's career involved caring for the severely handicapped... some of which had been put in that condition with a single blow to the head from a fist, or often something even more innocuous.

I've never said that I wouldn't throw a punch by the way. I'd just be damned sure why I was throwing it, and be prepared to accept any consequences of doing so.

The bolded part is where I stopped reading :lol:

Not to repeat myself, you have my opinion up there, read it again and think about it for a little, if you really wish to understand what was it that I had to say.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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LV, while you wait for a Catholic to respond to theological question in a politics thread, I can give you the gist of usual official explanation: God allows it because the reward is in Heaven, not on Earth.

Yeah, sounds about right... I suspect it wouldn't comfort a child eating dirt and fearing for their life everyday though :rolleyes:

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The bolded part is where I stopped reading :lol:

Not to repeat myself, you have my opinion up there, read it again and think about it for a little, if you really wish to understand what was it that I had to say.

Sorry Helen, you'll need to explain yourself a little more.

Unless you're suggesting that martial arts are about violence, in which case you need to do a little more reading yourself.

Edit: A few random stories from around the world for you to consider too:

Man left in coma after grocery store attack

Man whose punch left man in coma faces up to year in jail

Punch left Burnley Hallowe’en man in coma

'One-punch' brother Patrick Lyttle out of coma in Australian hospital

Edited by LV-426
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Yeah, sounds about right... I suspect it wouldn't comfort a child eating dirt and fearing for their life everyday though :rolleyes:

Depends... sometimes, some people do find immense comfort in their faith. Others don’t.

So you’ll read about the starving who can accept their suffering is the part of the benevolent god’s plan and at the same time you’ll meet people who can’t accept there’s benevolent god if that god won’t send them the right type of toy right now.

And all the shades in between mentioned extremes.

The Pope was honest again and instead of generic reward in Heaven promise, he offered his compassion. Not an theological answer, but human compassion. My kind of Pope!

But why the existence has to hurt so much and thousands of questions that follow... this is definitely Spirituality, Religion & Beliefs stuff.

Sorry Helen, you'll need to explain yourself a little more.

Unless you're suggesting that martial arts are about violence, in which case you need to do a little more reading yourself.

Edit: A few random stories from around the world for you to consider too:

Man left in coma after grocery store attack

Man whose punch left man in coma faces up to year in jail

Punch left Burnley Hallowe’en man in coma

'One-punch' brother Patrick Lyttle out of coma in Australian hospital

No, I won’t. I was very clear. Back to my already posted posts, if you wish to understand my points.

It’s you that will have to consider all the people who were slapped, punched, tickled or bumped their heads against a cupboard and – whoa! - survived.

This thread is not about freak accidents, or professional skull-crushers, it’s actually about the Pope’s honest statement about his opinion on what his own response to hypothetical personal insult would be, which, naturally, was blown out of proportion into accusing the Pope of excusing murderers and inciting violence.

Because there’s no honesty that won’t be misunderstood by the dishonest.

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I really find it humorous how people who aren't religious, and DEFINITELY don't follow Catholicism are becoming so involved in one silly thing the Pope said. The Pope has done HUNDREDS of things that deserve his esteem, this means nothing. Trust me, Catholics aren't going to go on a world wide punching spree and say "The Pope told me its okay." And if they do, they most likely have mental issues and don't need anything the Pope said to commit violence.

ALSO, he didn't actually say he would punch someone, but that someone should "expect" to be punched if they are that offensive. Lets keep in mind, he's speaking to Catholics, and trying to teach us a lesson that there can be consequences for speaking offensively for others, if you talk **** you may get hit! I think its a valuable and true lesson. So everyone who said a kid is going to go punching because the Pope said its okay, well, his parents did a poor job explaining. I would explain to my Children that everyone has feelings, and it is not right to insult anyone's religion, physical appearance, mental capacity etc etc without an expectation of them reacting, perhaps even violently.

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hypothetical personal insult would be, which, naturally, was blown out of proportion into accusing the Pope of excusing murderers and inciting violence.

Because there’s no honesty that won’t be misunderstood by the dishonest.

the Pope gave a muddled message ---but one part was the hypothetical punch that he would give a friend for saying a

curse word about his mother ----saying it was natural ---the other was that we cannot make fun of religion because this is provocative..

and the two came close together --implying that if you provoke a religious person you could get a violent reaction which is natural..

And deserved..?

But quite honestly - now I'm not sure he even knew what he was talking about himself...

And I wouldn't be surprised if he was 'retired' soon.....

.

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the Pope gave a muddled message ---but one part was the hypothetical punch that he would give a friend for saying a

curse word about his mother ----saying it was natural ---the other was that we cannot make fun of religion because this is provocative..

and the two came close together --implying that if you provoke a religious person you could get a violent reaction which is natural..

And deserved..?

But quite honestly - now I'm not sure he even knew what he was talking about himself...

And I wouldn't be surprised if he was 'retired' soon.....

.

I appreciate the fact he is honest about the true nature of humanity and he doesn't just reiterate the PC track. Freedom of speech applies to him as much as it applies to everyone else. Even if they are the opinions that don't fit the majority rhetoric.

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I really find it humorous how people who aren't religious, and DEFINITELY don't follow Catholicism are becoming so involved in one silly thing the Pope said. The Pope has done HUNDREDS of things that deserve his esteem, this means nothing. Trust me, Catholics aren't going to go on a world wide punching spree and say "The Pope told me its okay." And if they do, they most likely have mental issues and don't need anything the Pope said to commit violence.

:)

Non Catholics can be impacted by what he said....because he is saying ...in a hodge podge way that you can't make fun

of religions and faith because this is provocative and don't be surprised if you get a punch (or a bullet...?) because this is

a natural reaction to an insult...

In my opinion...coming on the back of the Paris murders...this was insensitive and unnecessary...

And yes...silly....but surely the leader of 1.2 billion followers should be more careful in these dangerous times...

and not say silly things....or be given the platform to say silly things...

.

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:)

Non Catholics can be impacted by what he said....because he is saying ...in a hodge podge way that you can't make fun

of religions and faith because this is provocative and don't be surprised if you get a punch (or a bullet...?) because this is

a natural reaction to an insult...

In my opinion...coming on the back of the Paris murders...this was insensitive and unnecessary...

And yes...silly....but surely the leader of 1.2 billion followers should be more careful in these dangerous times...

and not say silly things....or be given the platform to say silly things...

.

I commented earlier in this thread and then left because i'm not usually one to argue about religion, especially on this forum, there are a lot of people who consider themselves non-religious and are quick to proclaim it. (Which is their right.)

And honestly, I am not looking to change your mind, or convert you. Yet, I still assert that he was trying to preach a message of being prudent. You cannot make assumptions of ideal behavior on everyone's part. Your moral calculation has to take into account REALISTIC behavioral expectations of others.

I view the true spirit of Christianity as being tolerant of all faiths. I listened to that speech and found another reason to love this wonderful man. He said “Each person not only has the freedom but also the obligation to say what he thinks in the name of the common good,” the pope said. But “each religion has its dignity. I cannot make fun of it.” Then he goes on to say you cannot mock religion etc etc, and then the punch comment comes. I interpret that as he is saying something along the lines of "Everyone SHOULD have the right to say what they want. However, religions deserve dignity, so I personally wouldn't make fun of them."

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I commented earlier in this thread and then left because i'm not usually one to argue about religion, especially on this forum, there are a lot of people who consider themselves non-religious and are quick to proclaim it. (Which is their right.)

And honestly, I am not looking to change your mind, or convert you. Yet, I still assert that he was trying to preach a message of being prudent. You cannot make assumptions of ideal behavior on everyone's part. Your moral calculation has to take into account REALISTIC behavioral expectations of others.

I view the true spirit of Christianity as being tolerant of all faiths. I listened to that speech and found another reason to love this wonderful man. He said “Each person not only has the freedom but also the obligation to say what he thinks in the name of the common good,” the pope said. But “each religion has its dignity. I cannot make fun of it.” Then he goes on to say you cannot mock religion etc etc, and then the punch comment comes. I interpret that as he is saying something along the lines of "Everyone SHOULD have the right to say what they want. However, religions deserve dignity, so I personally wouldn't make fun of them."

your words defending Pope Francis and what he said shine with goodness, love and intelligence ---

seriously --you are a credit to yourself and your religion ---

I still think what I have put in other posts - but thanks for your contribution..... :tu:

.

.

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your words defending Pope Francis and what he said shine with goodness, love and intelligence ---

seriously --you are a credit to yourself and your religion ---

I still think what I have put in other posts - but thanks for your contribution..... :tu:

.

.

I am really flattered, what a lovely compliment. I honestly try to exemplify a message of kindness and compassion. (I try to live like my signature.) And when that comes across to others, it is all I can ask.

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I am really flattered, what a lovely compliment. I honestly try to exemplify a message of kindness and compassion. (I try to live like my signature.) And when that comes across to others, it is all I can ask.

re underlined...

and you have succeeded..... :yes:

cheers

.

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And that my friends, is how I like to to see these forums being used. People can be indifferent to each other's ideas, personal views and beliefs, yet relate it in a manner that is in no way condescending nor disrespectful of each other. My respect for the both of you has gone up beyond any measure. Thank you Woodsbooger and Bee, for showing so many of us the way.

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And that my friends, is how I like to to see these forums being used. People can be indifferent to each other's ideas, personal views and beliefs, yet relate it in a manner that is in no way condescending nor disrespectful of each other. My respect for the both of you has gone up beyond any measure. Thank you Woodsbooger and Bee, for showing so many of us the way.

Thank you. I just think if people look at the big picture Pope Francis is really a great Ambassador of the Catholic faith.

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Lethal punch? In a movie such as Million Dollar Baby, sure, and even there it was unfortunate fall over a chair, not a punch per se, that in the end more-less indirectly killed an imaginary character.

Rubbish.

http://www.stuff.co....th-by-one-punch

http://tvnz.co.nz/na...gle-punch-58410

http://www.nzherald....jectid=10883803

And that's just three recent examples from this small corner of the world.

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