Israel lobbies to cut ICC funding

[RavenHawk]

Soverign over who and what ?

And who do you think? All nations have sovereignty over its people and territory.

Annointed Dictatorship is still Fascism in every shade and color or size ~

And you get a kewpie doll. So what does that have to do with national sovereignty?

anyway , who granted Israel sovereignty too while you're at it ~

Who are you to question it? As all nations, they grant their own sovereignty. When the Mandate terminated and the British left, Palestine became unorganized territory which means no one owned or controlled it. Israel made a wise move to declare statehood on the day before and that gave them “tabula rasa and carte blanche”. The Palestinians had the same opportunity but they rejected it. There are no do overs.

[SHaYap]

And who do you think? All nations have sovereignty over its people and territory.

And you get a kewpie doll. So what does that have to do with national sovereignty?

Who are you to question it? As all nations, they grant their own sovereignty. When the Mandate terminated and the British left, Palestine became unorganized territory which means no one owned or controlled it. Israel made a wise move to declare statehood on the day before and that gave them "tabula rasa and carte blanche". The Palestinians had the same opportunity but they rejected it. There are no do overs.

Be that as it may , that is still after all what you and those that is of the same opinion thinks which in no effect affects the reality of the situation, which is what Israel is doing in demonstrating such opinions is against all decent laws of Humanity ~ deny it how and when or in whose name you do declare, it is what it is.

So what does that have to do with national sovereignty?

Nothing, which is exactly why Israel is guilty ~ actually more accurately , the Zionist Government and those that dictated the policies ~

~ edit : added dissertation of Israel from Zion ~

~

Edited January 27, 2015 by third_eye

[+and-then]

Gaza has one of highest density of population per square mile in the world, little over 12000 people per square mile. It's like bombing crowded marketplace. I don't understand why it is strange that, with almost 500 childrens killed, there is also high number of male adults. Was that serious question? Check demographics, about 52% population belongs to age group of 15-64, age 65+ only 2.8%. Rest are children. Interestingly, i can't find data for ages 15-45 or so... Source for this info is wiki, link.

So, Gaza is densely populated. 2nd, Gaza is occupied, there are shelters and there is always priority - woman, children, ill and older people - they go first. Many people die because they don't wan't to go out of their apartments, its called living under siege but keeping at least some of your pride 'alive' but hardly anyone could understand that, not if haven't experienced life under siege, especially when against modern, high tech army. To fire even one high explosive projectile at Gaza is enough to commit war crime.

And what of the men who fire rockets into Israel ( AT RANDOM) from those congested neighborhoods? Is it your contention that Israel has no right to fire back? If the IDF started using troops to go in to neutralize each rocket launcher it would lead to hundreds of dead troops. To think that any government would willingly sacrifice trained soldiers just for the sake of appearances to a world that would STILL despise them, no matter what, is naive at best. The war crimes are being committed by both sides - but Israel's war crimes are in defense - they wouldn't be necessary if Hamas stopped firing. Of course we know Hamas will never willingly stop until all the Jews in Palestine are either dead or displace. So Hamas has a bleak future.

[RoofGardener]

Gaza has one of highest density of population per square mile in the world, little over 12000 people per square mile. It's like bombing crowded marketplace. I don't understand why it is strange that, with almost 500 childrens killed, there is also high number of male adults. Was that serious question? Check demographics, about 52% population belongs to age group of 15-64, age 65+ only 2.8%. Rest are children. Interestingly, i can't find data for ages 15-45 or so... Source for this info is wiki, link.

Gaza Strip has one of the highest population densities in the world. Gaza CITY, however - which is where the conflict occured - isn't even in the top 50.

The rulers of Gaza do NOT provide citizens with bomb shelters. The UN provide SOME shelters. The statistics are still anomalous, Sir Smoke A Lot, and that translates as "suspicious".

[RavenHawk]

Be that as it may , that is still after all what you and those that is of the same opinion thinks which in no effect affects the reality of the situation, which is what Israel is doing in demonstrating such opinions is against all decent laws of Humanity ~ deny it how and when or in whose name you do declare, it is what it is.

But what we think *IS* the reality. So what is decent and humane to you? Suicide bombers, kidnapping and executions, firing rockets? All the decent laws of Humanity support the nation in protecting its sovereignty. The Palestinian is stateless. I’m not the one denying it. You live in some fantasy world. I need not declare the real world and thousands of years of Human history and civilization. Why don’t you join it?

Nothing, which is exactly why Israel is guilty ~ actually more accurately , the Zionist Government and those that dictated the policies ~

So a nation is guilty of defending its sovereignty means that it is Fascist? “Zionist”, uh? I can only guess what your opinion would be if the shoe was on the other foot. If the Palestinian had the upper hand, you’d probably ignore the entire incident. And you wonder why Israel lobbies to cut ICC funding.

[RoofGardener]

and never forget that neither Israel, nor the USA are members of the ICC., That I thinks informs us all as to the intent to commit Wars of Criminal culpability by both nations...

And do you set the same standard for Egypt, Syria (pre revolution), Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Iran, Iraq (pre-invasion), Kuwait, Yemen... indeed EVERY nation in the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation bar Jordan ? (all 56 of them). Are THEY all intending to commit wars of criminal culpability ?

Oh... and along with the Federated States of Micronesia. We musn't forget them.

[SHaYap]

~snip

If the Palestinian had the upper hand, you'd probably ignore the entire incident. And you wonder why Israel lobbies to cut ICC funding.

This statement alone renders all your arguments null and void.

~

What if the Zionists having the upper hand , not be the ones committing such criminal use of 'Sovereignty' by which equates to Fascism to many of the opinion that it is no different from the ones that is guilty of the Holocaust ?

~

I wonder ?

~

Indeed I do ...

~

[RavenHawk]

This statement alone renders all your arguments null and void.

Hardly! You can’t even show why.

What if the Zionists having the upper hand ,

Israel does have the upper hand. The world has been unwilling and incapable of providing an adequate solution, so it is up to those directly involved. But if it is up to you, you’d prefer to see the misery continue by beating the Jew into submission. As it is, the misery is near an end, let it be.

not be the ones committing such criminal use of 'Sovereignty' by which equates to Fascism to many of the opinion that it is no different from the ones that is guilty of the Holocaust ?

Wow! That’s a mouth full. Sovereignty doesn’t matter to you. Israel is guilty no matter what. A good Jew is a dead Jew? Is that it? Zionism is a concept that protects the Rights of Jews and pulled them out of Dhimmitude. And when they try to exercise their Rights, then they are evil Fascists? This is the reason to defund the ICC. You establish an excellent case for it.

I wonder ?

Indeed I do ...

Please continue to do so. Some day your hatred will come to an end and you may come to realize the truth.

[SolarPlexus]

Israel does have the upper hand.

In what, exactly? The world never had less sympathy for Israel than today

[jeem]

I think you just did it. Israel didn't initiate it, they finished it. Nasser initiated it. To do what Nasser did and when it backfired to turn around and claim that Israel was in the wrong? If that isn't typical of Islam playing the victim card.

I stand by my word and history support it.Israel initiated it.And that is typical of raven playing evil islam card

[+and-then]

I stand by my word and history support it.Israel initiated it.And that is typical of raven playing evil islam card

Nasser was playing games by moving divisions into Sinai. He thought he had Soviet backing and when he decided to close the Straits of Tiran it was ON While the Arab armies had very courageous INDIVIDUAL fighters, their armies were basically cannon fodder for a real, disciplined and organized military. When they decide to come against Israel again they will receive the same outcome I suspect. True enough that Israel jumped in and destroyed the Egyptian air force - if a bigger, stronger faster guy was about to beat you down, would you wait for him or try to throw the first punch and hope to get lucky? In case you hadn't heard, war is a nasty business.

[SHaYap]

Hardly! You can't even show why.

Israel does have the upper hand. The world has been unwilling and incapable of providing an adequate solution, so it is up to those directly involved. But if it is up to you, you'd prefer to see the misery continue by beating the Jew into submission. As it is, the misery is near an end, let it be.

I don't have to, not unable to ~ clearly you have shown why ~

Wow! That's a mouth full. Sovereignty doesn't matter to you. Israel is guilty no matter what. A good Jew is a dead Jew? Is that it? Zionism is a concept that protects the Rights of Jews and pulled them out of Dhimmitude. And when they try to exercise their Rights, then they are evil Fascists? This is the reason to defund the ICC. You establish an excellent case for it.

My lips hardly even moved ~ and as ever your inane reasonings subjected to your willful blindness is as usual and ever hardly moving ~

Please continue to do so. Some day your hatred will come to an end and you may come to realize the truth.

If that be the truth then the evidence should be presented to the ICC as such in the manner of civilized and cultured humanity, what's the big deal ? I have, nor need no other requirement as such ~ the reason this is where it is now with the International Criminal Court already proves much that this truth is not on the side of the Zionists ~ Israeli funding or no , members or not ~ and the reason Bibi is complaining is because the good old buddy in the US of A is not in the dock with him ~ your day too as well will come as most assuredly mine is arriving ~ in fact this day of realising the truth came a long time ago ~ this is a case for Justice ~ regardless of what the Israel / Zionists claims is objectionable to their 'Freedom'

~

~

[Sir Smoke aLot]

And what of the men who fire rockets into Israel ( AT RANDOM) from those congested neighborhoods? Is it your contention that Israel has no right to fire back? If the IDF started using troops to go in to neutralize each rocket launcher it would lead to hundreds of dead troops. To think that any government would willingly sacrifice trained soldiers just for the sake of appearances to a world that would STILL despise them, no matter what, is naive at best. The war crimes are being committed by both sides - but Israel's war crimes are in defense - they wouldn't be necessary if Hamas stopped firing. Of course we know Hamas will never willingly stop until all the Jews in Palestine are either dead or displace. So Hamas has a bleak future.

I just mentioned information about Gaza and everyone can make his own conclusion. War crimes were commited by both sides, it's a long war going on there but technically and legally, Palestinians were defending too. If those rockets fired from Gaza, no matter how inefficient they are, can justify legally all the IDF actions ( pictures of devastation speak for themself ) then lets apply the same for Palestinians who are occupied.

It took me some time to realize that Hamas had no other way ( then using rocket attacks to get attention ) to change terrible blockade which was put over Gaza by Israel. Mabe its not relevant but remember that even fishermans could not go out to open sea to catch fish, among other things which were forced by Israel, not so long ago Israel even calculated daily needs of calories for Gaza people and humanitarian aid was sent there based on those calculations. Term 'open prison' wasn't made up as a part of propaganda. Link. What Hamas would do ( not stopping until all Jews are dead or displaced ) can't be used to justify terrorizing of civilian population. Sorry that i have gone off topic a bit but this is very important to say.

Gaza Strip has one of the highest population densities in the world. Gaza CITY, however - which is where the conflict occured - isn't even in the top 50.

The rulers of Gaza do NOT provide citizens with bomb shelters. The UN provide SOME shelters. The statistics are still anomalous, Sir Smoke A Lot, and that translates as "suspicious".

I am not sure how did you come up with information that Gaza City is not densely populated because city area is 17 square miles with population of 515.000 from year 2012 (again, info from wiki - link ) which makes it's population density comparable to New York and way higher then most of other parts of Gaza. By using simple logic and math it all leads to believe that, at time of conflict, density was a lot higher then of what this nubers from 2012 show ( add population growth, which is highest in the world, migration from other parts of Gaza both caused by conflict and by lack of jobs in other areas.. ).

Rulers of Gaza, eh, they didn't make shelters? This makes me remember claims about Palestinians using human shields with their own children in those shields.. ... How can we know? And remember friend, shelter can be any cellar, anything which is underground and i believe that almost every building has one but, as i have mentioned in post before this one - there is no shelter against those high explosive bombs which ( as we have seen in videos from Gaza ) destroy whole building in few seconds.

[keithisco]

And do you set the same standard for Egypt, Syria (pre revolution), Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Iran, Iraq (pre-invasion), Kuwait, Yemen... indeed EVERY nation in the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation bar Jordan ? (all 56 of them). Are THEY all intending to commit wars of criminal culpability ?

Oh... and along with the Federated States of Micronesia. We musn't forget them.

It is very lazy making such grandiose statements without checking first that you are actually correct. Find 2 links below that will help you to make a factual statement:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_parties_to_the_Rome_Statute_of_the_International_Criminal_Court

http://www.oic-oci.org/oicv2/states/

[keithisco]

Gaza Strip has one of the highest population densities in the world. Gaza CITY, however - which is where the conflict occured - isn't even in the top 50.

The rulers of Gaza do NOT provide citizens with bomb shelters. The UN provide SOME shelters. The statistics are still anomalous, Sir Smoke A Lot, and that translates as "suspicious".

Nothing to do with concrete, steel, and tubing being blockaded from Gaza by Israel then? I know!... lets make bunkers from cardboard!! Brilliant, solved ***sarcasm***

[Beefers]

Israel acting like their big buddy the US as far as international laws go. Apparently they don't want them going after their own criminals.

[RoofGardener]

It is very lazy making such grandiose statements without checking first that you are actually correct. Find 2 links below that will help you to make a factual statement:

http://en.wikipedia...._Criminal_Court

http://www.oic-oci.org/oicv2/states/

Perhaps I DID check, Keithisco ? After all, neither of your links contradict my statement.

[RavenHawk]

I stand by my word and history support it.

Only a twisted version of history supports it. – no more!

Israel initiated it.

Nasser initiated it with comments like “kicking the Jew back into the sea”. And the Arab League massing troops along the border. So what was Israel supposed to do? Wait for the inevitable? They were just joking? Israel took a lesson from recent history. If England and France had invaded Germany in 1936 then WWII would not have begun and there would have been no Holocaust. They didn’t because they didn’t want the stigma of being the aggressor. Really!? Swift move Chamberlain! I think Israel was very willing to take on the stigma to prevent another Holocaust. Their preemptive strike was very wise and prudent.

And that is typical of raven playing evil islam card

When do I paint Islam as evil (at least try to refrain from it)? I admire Islam, I just happen to be on the other side. That makes us enemies because I cause mischief throughout the land, I threaten the Ummah. That’s ok. Islam is the worthy enemy. It doesn’t have to be that way. Islam doesn’t have to be the enemy of the world but it will remain so until it reforms and that means that the Moderates must commit Backbiting against the extremists. And that leads to Shirk. I just don’t see that happening. But until that does change, the ICC needs to go away.

[SHaYap]

wow ~ go away 'where' exactly ?

~

[RavenHawk]

In what, exactly?

Demonstrating that they have the right to exist.

The world never had less sympathy for Israel than today

Then I think you are out of touch. Do you realize what yesterday was? The outpouring of sympathy is voluminous. There are a vocal few that will claim the lack of sympathy is more widespread but that is not the case. It’s that attitude that the US and others had promised “never again”. Indeed, in times past the Jew has felt thousands of years of hatred from the world but that needs to end. I for one am not going to acquiescent to you and your ilk.

[jeem]

Only a twisted version of history supports it. – no more!

This is twisted version of history to you only.

Nasser initiated it with comments like "kicking the Jew back into the sea". And the Arab League massing troops along the border. So what was Israel supposed to do? Wait for the inevitable? They were just joking?

You know Israel could also mobilise troop in it's border and can go on a defensive position.But instead they strike first.Which make them the agressor.

Israel took a lesson from recent history. If England and France had invaded Germany in 1936 then WWII would not have begun and there would have been no Holocaust. They didn't because they didn't want the stigma of being the aggressor. Really!? Swift move Chamberlain! I think Israel was very willing to take on the stigma to prevent another Holocaust.

If the ally forces include Germany in the treaty of versailles after ww1 and behave like a liberator insted of a conquorer then there would not be a WW2

When do I paint Islam as evil (at least try to refrain from it)? I admire Islam, I just happen to be on the other side. That makes us enemies because I cause mischief throughout the land, I threaten the Ummah. That's ok. Islam is the worthy enemy. It doesn't have to be that way. Islam doesn't have to be the enemy of the world but it will remain so until it reforms and that means that the Moderates must commit Backbiting against the extremists. And that leads to Shirk. I just don't see that happening. But until that does change, the ICC needs to go away.

When do you paint Islam evil?In most of your post.You even said that Israel has every right to kill Palestinian.Didn't you?by the way do you even understand what dows shirk mean?

Edited January 29, 2015 by jeem

[RoofGardener]

Please ... in the name of sanity .... STOP the discussion of the '67 war, or take it into it's own thread. Or one of the umpty-dozen existing threads on the topic. (JUST when we thought they'd all safely dropped off the bottom of the list )

I only raised it as a JOKE, comparing it with Godwin's Law. I never intended for people to actually DISCUS it.

Sir Smoke A Lot - I got the population figures from Wikepedia ... list of cities by density

Density is not the same as size. Hence New York and Los Angeles are both big cities, but they are not densely packed. Accordingly neither New York or Gaza are even in the top 50.

Buildings may have basements, but the basement of an average med-height block of flats would NOT support all of the residences. HAMAS does not organise large communal shelters. The UN used some school buildings as ... well.... not so much shelters as "declared safe areas", hoping that this would discourage either side firing at them.

But here's a suggestion for you; the statistically abnormal number of adult males in the figures was down to the fact that they where armed combatants, and NOT civilians. This is the lesson of the Cast Lead casualty figures.

Edited January 29, 2015 by RoofGardener

[keithisco]

Perhaps I DID check, Keithisco ? After all, neither of your links contradict my statement.

They certainly do contradict you - the idea was for you to actually perform a comparison of OIC members and ICC members.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

Sir Smoke A Lot - I got the population figures from Wikepedia ... list of cities by density

Density is not the same as size. Hence New York and Los Angeles are both big cities, but they are not densely packed. Accordingly neither New York or Gaza are even in the top 50.

Buildings may have basements, but the basement of an average med-height block of flats would NOT support all of the residences. HAMAS does not organise large communal shelters. The UN used some school buildings as ... well.... not so much shelters as "declared safe areas", hoping that this would discourage either side firing at them.

But here's a suggestion for you; the statistically abnormal number of adult males in the figures was down to the fact that they where armed combatants, and NOT civilians. This is the lesson of the Cast Lead casualty figures.

Density is not same as size, of course that it is not. Numbers on your link are based on 'city proper' area ( Link - wiki : ''In some countries, city limits that act as the demarcation for the city proper are drawn very wide, in some very narrow. This can be cause for recurring controversy'' ), there is no Mexico City on that list but there is Monaco on the list - clearly that list is based on how local governments defines city area, but anyways...

Can you simply answer this question please : if there are ~515.000 of people living in the area of 17 square miles, how do we get number of population per square mile? By using simple maths we get rough number but if we go 'deeper' and check city blocks - there will be more interesting data i am sure.

Google maps. Check link please, on the left side you can click 'satellite' then click Gaza ( at top right ) and zoom a little bit - seeing is believing - when statistics make confusion

About basements, you would be surprised how many people can fit in small sized 'rooms' but other then that i agree that there is no large, organized, communal shelters alto that is only an assumption ( i discussed reasons behind lack of construction works in other topics at UM, mainly reason is constant destruction and lack of construction materials ).

I would love to see number of population in Gaza aged from 15 to 45, again, i assume its very large number which translates into fact that, if it is the largest group then that group will have highest number of casualties. However, even 5 civilian lives lost is a tragedy, Israel had casualties but Palestinians have been devastated - why at least Israel didn't negotiate and give 1km of open sea to people of Gaza, it would have been great start before conflict.

By my humble opinion, and maybe legally too, even soldier who is currently at home with his family and is not included in operations is considered as civilian ( remember Hamas high ranked officers who got killed with their whole families ). Clearly there is plenty of things to be investigated at least, by influencing ICC Israel is doing a favor to it's opponents. Sorry for long post.

[+and-then]

Density is not same as size, of course that it is not. Numbers on your link are based on 'city proper' area ( Link - wiki : ''In some countries, city limits that act as the demarcation for the city proper are drawn very wide, in some very narrow. This can be cause for recurring controversy'' ), there is no Mexico City on that list but there is Monaco on the list - clearly that list is based on how local governments defines city area, but anyways...

Can you simply answer this question please : if there are ~515.000 of people living in the area of 17 square miles, how do we get number of population per square mile? By using simple maths we get rough number but if we go 'deeper' and check city blocks - there will be more interesting data i am sure.

Google maps. Check link please, on the left side you can click 'satellite' then click Gaza ( at top right ) and zoom a little bit - seeing is believing - when statistics make confusion

About basements, you would be surprised how many people can fit in small sized 'rooms' but other then that i agree that there is no large, organized, communal shelters alto that is only an assumption ( i discussed reasons behind lack of construction works in other topics at UM, mainly reason is constant destruction and lack of construction materials ).

I would love to see number of population in Gaza aged from 15 to 45, again, i assume its very large number which translates into fact that, if it is the largest group then that group will have highest number of casualties. However, even 5 civilian lives lost is a tragedy, Israel had casualties but Palestinians have been devastated - why at least Israel didn't negotiate and give 1km of open sea to people of Gaza, it would have been great start before conflict.

By my humble opinion, and maybe legally too, even soldier who is currently at home with his family and is not included in operations is considered as civilian ( remember Hamas high ranked officers who got killed with their whole families ). Clearly there is plenty of things to be investigated at least, by influencing ICC Israel is doing a favor to it's opponents. Sorry for long post.

By all means this entire conflict could benefit from a thorough (key term) investigation OF BOTH SIDES. But when this panel sits to list the crimes of one side only then it becomes irrelevant and obviously biased. As to negotiating prior to hostilities, there is no chance of that any longer. Both sides are firmly entrenched and only a war of literal annihilation will ever truly solve the hatred here.